2020 Lawn thread

[jagnet]

RichB said:

Ok that's better. Well I can't see any signs of red thread there. I think it was just wisps of dead leaf matter I could see in the other pictures.

It's pretty thin turf even accounting for the fact that it's now a bit dead. You say the soil is moist still; is that just at the surface? How's the moisture levels further down?

I'm reluctant to say dry patch. It just doesn't sit right with me to have the grass wilt so quickly and dry patch is becoming a bit of a standard go to issue, often when it's not the problem.

Clearly something has been causing the grass to thin and struggle for a while. Even if it looked ok from a distance before it's clearly not happy and presumably coinciding with hot weather it's all become a bit too much. My gut feeling is there's issues with root health there for what could be a number of reasons.

I think you need to look deeper. I would get a spade and neatly dig out a section of soil across an affected patch. How compacted is it? What's the soil like? Is there debris under the surface? Is there a defined changed in soil type that roots don't want to cross. How deep are the roots growing? Are there any pests eating away at the roots? Is it too wet causing roots to rot?

[dhutch]

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

It’s possible that you’ve got a fungal disease called “red thread” - that’s what it looks like. This is encouraged when the air is humid - which it has been for the last couple of weeks and will be especially bad in hot weather. The LawnSmith web site issued a red thread alert a few weeks ago. I recommend reading their page on red thread.

I also note you say you water “every night”. This is bad practice, for two reasons. Firstly, watering in the evening allows the grass leaves to stay damp overnight, which will encourage fungal infections like red thread. Instead, water in the morning. Secondly, it is far better to water less frequently but water very thoroughly when you do. This makes the water penetrate deeply into the soil, encouraging the deeper rooted grasses to send their roots downwards and makes them more drought resistant. By watering “little and often” you are only watering the top inch of soil, which will favour the shallow-rooted weed grasses and make your lawn vulnerable to drought.

So, I recommend:

1) Switch to morning waterings, no more than once a week and make it a really good soak.

2) Feed your lawn if you haven’t done so recently. This will speed up growth and cause any red thread affected foliage to grow out.

3) When mowing, collect the clippings if your mower can do that, rather than leaving clippings on the lawn. Normally I recommend leaving clippings from time to time, but if there’s the possibility you’ve got red thread you want to remove the infected material.

Edited to add:
I’m not a fan of “all-in-one” products. It looks to me like your lawn doesn’t have any moss, so why are you applying a product with moss killer in it? And it looks like you have very few (if any) weeds, so why are you applying a product with weed killer in it? You’d be far better off applying just a feed product - they’re way better and there’s hardly any risk of scorching. If you get the odd weed, spot-treat them with a spray bottle of Verdone or similar.

Sounds advice from my basic but expending understanding.

[dhutch]

jagnet said:

Even the Victorians appreciated the benefits of not having a monoculture. The only reason that clover is now considered a weed is marketing. You can't have selective weedkillers that don't kill clover, so call clover a weed and bingo, problem solved and lots of weedkiller sales. Oh but no nitrogen fixing now, so why not buy even more fertiliser. And so it goes on.

Lots of vested interest in making lawncare seem like a difficult task that needs a whole range of different products to achieve the perfect turf. Lawn care doesn't require huge amounts of effort or products once the basics are right. If it does then something's wrong.

Interesting post, particularly the bit about clover having desirable characteristics, but also more generally about our desire to make a rod for own own backs.

Our lawn was knackered when we moved in, years of cutting it very short, on a sandy base, with a very blunt mower I think. However my parents lawn, odd exceptions aside, was basically just mown weekly and used for years with non concerns about a few coarser grasses coming in from the field behind, not issues recovering from dry spells on its own, certainly no watering etc.

Certainly unless you want to devote your life to practicing for a vacancy at the local bowls club (and no harm if you do) there is a lot to be said for maintaining a balanced approach, picking a seed mix which has 'family' in the title, and cutting it a bit longer most of summer.

I am as guilty as anyone but it is easy to get suckered into a lot of work which gives no real life gain!

Daniel

[jagnet]

dhutch said:

I am as guilty as anyone but it is easy to get suckered into a lot of work which gives no real life gain!

The Pareto principal most definitely applies to lawncare

[RichB]

jagnet said:

Ok that's better. Well I can't see any signs of red thread there. I think it was just wisps of dead leaf matter I could see in the other pictures.

It's pretty thin turf even accounting for the fact that it's now a bit dead. You say the soil is moist still; is that just at the surface? How's the moisture levels further down?

I'm reluctant to say dry patch. It just doesn't sit right with me to have the grass wilt so quickly and dry patch is becoming a bit of a standard go to issue, often when it's not the problem.

Clearly something has been causing the grass to thin and struggle for a while. Even if it looked ok from a distance before it's clearly not happy and presumably coinciding with hot weather it's all become a bit too much. My gut feeling is there's issues with root health there for what could be a number of reasons.

I think you need to look deeper. I would get a spade and neatly dig out a section of soil across an affected patch. How compacted is it? What's the soil like? Is there debris under the surface? Is there a defined changed in soil type that roots don't want to cross. How deep are the roots growing? Are there any pests eating away at the roots? Is it too wet causing roots to rot?

thanks, I'll have a dig at the weekend. Certainly not seen any leather jackets and only a few ants. The turf is 2 1/2 years old now and the subsonic was well prepared with several inches of fresh topsoil put on top. It's all in one area which made me think fungal it's too late to complain about the turf now!

P.s. bagshot sand so good drainage and acidic

[jagnet]

RichB said:

hanks, I'll have a dig at the weekend. Certainly not seen any leather jackets and only a few ants. The turf is 2 1/2 years old now and the subsonic was well prepared with several inches of fresh topsoil put on top. It's all in one area which made me think fungal it's too late to complain about the turf now!

P.s. bagshot sand so good drainage and acidic

Oh yes, very sandy. How's your fertiliser regime been? Nutrients tend to wash through that soil like a sieve. Definitely worth applying on the generous side of normal recommendations.

We can definitely discount dry patch I think. You're really unlikely going to get that occurring on such a relatively young lawn unless large chunks of old thatchy turf were buried under the new.

[RichB]

jagnet said:

RichB said:

hanks, I'll have a dig at the weekend. Certainly not seen any leather jackets and only a few ants. The turf is 2 1/2 years old now and the subsonic was well prepared with several inches of fresh topsoil put on top. It's all in one area which made me think fungal it's too late to complain about the turf now!
P.s. bagshot sand so good drainage and acidic

Oh yes, very sandy. How's your fertiliser regime been? Nutrients tend to wash through that soil like a sieve. Definitely worth applying on the generous side of normal recommendations.

We can definitely discount dry patch I think. You're really unlikely going to get that occurring on such a relatively young lawn unless large chunks of old thatchy turf were buried under the new.

Thanks, and no, the turf chaps properly stripped the old grass with a machine and repeatedly rotavated down about 6" then applied the fresh topsoil (20 tons were delivered - about 3 tons were scooped up and taken away!)

I fed it with Lawnsmith slow release for sandy soil in April and gave it a soluble feed (with a touch of FeSO3)and resultantly in most areas you can really see the grass growing well. But in these areas it's collapsed.

[Harry Flashman]

I have similar troubles to you, due to the way the turf was laid over sand.

A few days' drought has seen some areas look very limps.

My only solution this year has been a lot of watering and maintenance, overseeing with sandy lawn seed, fertilising etc.

Frankly the lawn is pretty fragile and needs lots of care. Wish I found this thread and read it before letting the idiots lay the turf three years ago.

[r44flyer]

Harry Flashman said:

I have similar troubles to you, due to the way the turf was laid over sand.

A few days' drought has seen some areas look very limps.

My only solution this year has been a lot of watering and maintenance, overseeing with sandy lawn seed, fertilising etc.

Frankly the lawn is pretty fragile and needs lots of care. Wish I found this thread and read it before letting the idiots lay the turf three years ago.

Start adding compost. The worms and decomposition will take it down into the rootzone eventually and from very early on it will help retain moisture in the upper layer for the grass to use.

I've just used that 4mm fine compost from Field Compost. It's amazing as a top dressing and will spread and disappear over the lawn. I'd recommend it. £160-odd for 1500litres delivered.

[jagnet]

Harry Flashman said:

Frankly the lawn is pretty fragile and needs lots of care. Wish I found this thread and read it before letting the idiots lay the turf three years ago.

It's surprisingly common, but I have no idea why. On any level, laying turf on sand makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If it's builder's rather than sharp sand it's even worse as it packs together.

Regular aeration to create channels through the sand for the roots to grow along is key. I would maintain a higher than normal cutting height to encourage deeper rooting past the sand layer as well as giving the grass a greater buffer against dry periods. If you can periodically mulch the clippings in situ then do as that will help to introduce organic matter but you don't want to introduce too much at once as the soil biology that can break the clippings down needs to gradually develop and on a base of sand that is going to be severely lacking initially. Also consider overseeding with a clover/grass mix in the Autumn.

[dhutch]

jagnet said:

dhutch said:

I am as guilty as anyone but it is easy to get suckered into a lot of work which gives no real life gain!

The Pareto principal most definitely applies to lawncare

The good old 80:20 rule!

[RichB]

Harry Flashman said:

I have similar troubles to you, due to the way the turf was laid over sand. A few days' drought has seen some areas look very limps. My only solution this year has been a lot of watering and maintenance, overseeing with sandy lawn seed, fertilising etc. Frankly the lawn is pretty fragile and needs lots of care. Wish I found this thread and read it before letting the idiots lay the turf three years ago.

I do recollect raising an eyebrow 3 years ago when you said on your build thread that the chaps had spread sand everywhere... maybe I didn't comment.

[5harp3y]

any advice for a newbie lawn owner please?

new build house
soil is really heavy clay
lawn laid by the builder on top of said clay 18 months ago
surrounded by farmland and wild borders (we get a lot of wild grasses in the lawn)

1st year looked great
this year looks pants

I have fertilised once this year and also manually solid tined the lawn in early spring



some bits really strong, deep green and grow like crazy



other areas dry and don't seem to grow

[Cl4rkyPH]

5harp3y said:

any advice for a newbie lawn owner please?

new build house
soil is really heavy clay
lawn laid by the builder on top of said clay 18 months ago
surrounded by farmland and wild borders (we get a lot of wild grasses in the lawn)

1st year looked great
this year looks pants

I have fertilised once this year and also manually solid tined the lawn in early spring



some bits really strong, deep green and grow like crazy



other areas dry and don't seem to grow

Same problem as mine that I posted 1 or 2 pages ago.

I think it has something to do with new builds and the way the builders just chuck turf down on to minimal soil.

I’ve just stabbed a load of holes in my lawn (aerated) and fertilised in the hope that it’s just compacted soil.

The fact you say you fertilised makes me worry a bit. Have you tried aerating?

[stevensdrs]

Cl4rkyPH said:

5harp3y said:

any advice for a newbie lawn owner please?

new build house
soil is really heavy clay
lawn laid by the builder on top of said clay 18 months ago
surrounded by farmland and wild borders (we get a lot of wild grasses in the lawn)

1st year looked great
this year looks pants

I have fertilised once this year and also manually solid tined the lawn in early spring



some bits really strong, deep green and grow like crazy



other areas dry and don't seem to grow

Same problem as mine that I posted 1 or 2 pages ago.

I think it has something to do with new builds and the way the builders just chuck turf down on to minimal soil.

I’ve just stabbed a load of holes in my lawn (aerated) and fertilised in the hope that it’s just compacted soil.

The fact you say you fertilised makes me worry a bit. Have you tried aerating?

I had this problem for years. I eventually bit the bullet and dug the whole lot up. Under the affected areas I discovered all the builders rubbish from wood to discarded concrete. I dug the whole lot out, several tons of it, and replaced it with new soil and then new turf. I am pleased to say that the effort was worthwhile and all the grass now grows at the same rate.

[morfmedia]

jagnet said:

Version 2 as my first reply got a bit ranty. What problem are you trying to solve with these products? Why do you feel that millions of years of evolution has left the grass in your lawn unable to cope without adding this that and the other to it? Or rather, what have you done to so badly mess up the soil biology in your lawn that you now need to fix it with additives?

Hi Jagnet

Main aim is to give a very heavy clay soil as many nutrients as possible to give a healthy grass. As a layman I guess I don’t appreciate the difference between just using a general fertiliser and a thin bit of compost on top or buying some of these micro nutrient type products.

What would your approach expect to improve soil quality? Pitchcare seems a decent site so wouldn’t think they will sell stuff that isn’t good.

[5harp3y]

Cl4rkyPH said:

5harp3y said:

any advice for a newbie lawn owner please?

new build house
soil is really heavy clay
lawn laid by the builder on top of said clay 18 months ago
surrounded by farmland and wild borders (we get a lot of wild grasses in the lawn)

1st year looked great
this year looks pants

I have fertilised once this year and also manually solid tined the lawn in early spring



some bits really strong, deep green and grow like crazy



other areas dry and don't seem to grow

Same problem as mine that I posted 1 or 2 pages ago.

I think it has something to do with new builds and the way the builders just chuck turf down on to minimal soil.

I’ve just stabbed a load of holes in my lawn (aerated) and fertilised in the hope that it’s just compacted soil.

The fact you say you fertilised makes me worry a bit. Have you tried aerating?

Yeah aerated once but feel like it needs to be more regular

Did some raking tonight and it's helped but it's never going to be perfect

[5harp3y]

stevensdrs said:

I had this problem for years. I eventually bit the bullet and dug the whole lot up. Under the affected areas I discovered all the builders rubbish from wood to discarded concrete. I dug the whole lot out, several tons of it, and replaced it with new soil and then new turf. I am pleased to say that the effort was worthwhile and all the grass now grows at the same rate.

We're planning to do some work to the garden so depending on how much turf is left we might just do that and start a fresh

[jagnet]

morfmedia said:

Hi Jagnet

Main aim is to give a very heavy clay soil as many nutrients as possible to give a healthy grass. As a layman I guess I don’t appreciate the difference between just using a general fertiliser and a thin bit of compost on top or buying some of these micro nutrient type products.

What would your approach expect to improve soil quality? Pitchcare seems a decent site so wouldn’t think they will sell stuff that isn’t good.

Don't worry, my frustrations aren't with you but rather with those recommending products because they're the latest fashionable thing but seemingly not really understanding what they do or the problem they're meant to answer, or why that problem is there in the first place. It's a bit like car detailing - things can get silly very quickly and miracle products come in and out of fashion all the time whilst the basic principal of shine coming from a perfectly smooth surface doesn't change.

It's also worth remembering that whilst they really are very good, Pitchcare (not a sponsor) is designed primarily to supply the professional groundsman and many of the products are intended for those customers. The demands of sports turf and the demands of a domestic lawn are very different. You would never willingly choose to build your lawn like a USGA putting green. If you wanted to deliberately create a really inhospitable environment for grass you couldn't do a much better job than build and maintain one of those.

The advantage of clay soil is that it's naturally excellent at retaining nutrients. Sandy soils are the ones that a more of a problem in that regard since nutrients are so easily washed through. Of course the problem with clay is drainage in wet weather and compaction, but in all cases the primary answer is always organic matter and soil structure.

How you introduce organic matter is down to you. The quickest route is through starting over and rotovating in fresh compost and topsoil. An example of this is fastbikes76's excellent lawn makeover in the 2019 Lawn Thread. But a complete overhaul isn't for everyone so a slower method is through topdressing occasionally and/or mulching the clippings in situ, then let nature do the hard work of mixing it in over time. Organic matter will also build over time from the natural death and decomposition of root matter; unless the soil biology is lacking and then you get thatch buildup, waxy deposits and hydrophobic soils. If your soil biology is good then organic matter gives humus, and humus gives humic acid but to get to humic acid you need amino acids and the primary source of these is mycorrhizae.

This is where golf greens are an issue because generally organic matter is kept to a minimum in order to maintain consistent run of the ball and all too often fungicides are used and fungicides kill beneficial fungi just as quickly as harmful ones. Golfers won't generally appreciate the finer points of soil biology if it makes for a bogey on the third. Likewise worms, nature's aerators; brilliant in a lawn, frowned upon by those lining up a tricky putt on the fifth. So many worms have died over the years for the sake of ball sports, we shall remember them. In the old days the worms may have had the last laugh though as products designed to deal with them and available to public and professional user alike often included arsenic compounds. Karma. But that's nothing compared to the efforts humans have gone to in shooting large herbivores to prevent desertification around the world when it turns out that usually just makes things worse. We really are just dumb apes with an over heightened sense of our own importance sometimes.

Some mornings I wake up and worry that I'm turning into an eco warrior. But then I shower and shave and realise that can't possibly be true.

Soil structure. Avoid walking on the lawn when it's wet - compaction, elimination of air pockets and bad things will follow. No one likes an anaerobic soil, including grass, fungi and beneficial bacteria. Stinking black layers of nastiness form and the route to a zen like state of turf happiness will forever elude you. Aerate as often as you can to keep the surface open and the soil biology happy.

If you want to really improve soil structure and fertilise the lawn at the same time, then imho you just can't beat clover:

No clover on the left versus high clover content on the right, courtesy of Germinal (not a sponsor). Look at all those lovely lovely air pockets and channels to encourage deep root growth; gives me a warm feeling inside. But yeah, clover...urgh...bad...weed...must kill.

When it comes to fertiliser then I do like a good organic fertiliser and of these the Maxwell Myco 1 and 2 have always been good to me (available from Pitchcare; not a sponsor) although other such fertilisers are available and at the basic level then blood, fish and bone, hoof and horn etc do the same job. It encourages the natural soil biology that works symbiotically with the grass since many of the nutrients are not immediately available to the grass and outside assistance from bacteria etc is required, which in the case of Myco 1 and 2 are handily prepackaged with the fertiliser so if your soil is lacking it's not a problem. If the nutrient breakdown is happening deeper in the soil close to the perennial grass roots and away from shallow rooted annual weed grasses, what are your shallow rooted annual weed grasses like Poa annua going to do? Now what if you spray liquid fertiliser on the same grasses so that it's immediately available to the plant for growth and seed production? Oooooh, suddenly it all starts to make sense.

In the beginning was stony ground and the stony ground begat weeds and the weeds begat annual grasses and the annual grasses begat perennial grasses. If you find that the lawn is working backwards, then something's awry. Imho you just need to listen to what the lawn is telling you, its natural inclination is towards the desirable perennial grasses but we keep hampering its efforts often through well intentioned but ultimately misguided actions. A bit like shooting elephants to prevent deserts forming.

Enough ramblings, I've got some clouds to shout at.

[morfmedia]

Thanks for the feedback Jagnet, greatly appreciated. Will get some traditional top dressing and give one of those myco formulas a whirl along with some aeration. I don’t mind clover in my lawn so will leave it alone if a I see some ( I only donspot treatment on real broad leer weeds). Would love to redo the lawn but at 400sq/m the quotes were too high for now.