House extension- are windows ‘first fix’? Invoice dispute!
Discussion
Hi all,
I’ve often been a reader on the forum, but here’s my first post...
I’m currently having a large home extension built, with payment to the builder in stages, and I’ve received the latest invoice following ‘first fix’ of electrics and plumbing.
However: The builder still hasn’t fitted any windows or doors to the extension, and I’m wondering whether I should be delaying payment of the invoice, as, to me, the windows and doors should be in as part of, or before the ‘first fix’ of electrics and plumbing.
Do I pay the invoice, or request that doors and windows are fitted first?
Any advice or recommendations gratefully received!
I’ve often been a reader on the forum, but here’s my first post...
I’m currently having a large home extension built, with payment to the builder in stages, and I’ve received the latest invoice following ‘first fix’ of electrics and plumbing.
However: The builder still hasn’t fitted any windows or doors to the extension, and I’m wondering whether I should be delaying payment of the invoice, as, to me, the windows and doors should be in as part of, or before the ‘first fix’ of electrics and plumbing.
Do I pay the invoice, or request that doors and windows are fitted first?
Any advice or recommendations gratefully received!
Agreed - there is no standard definition of first fix or second fix and everyone has there own definition - speak to your builder and reach a compromise. You have clearly agreed a price and allowed a builder access to your property so why wouldn't you just discuss this directly with them to resolve?
Personally I would be more bothered about quality of the work and waterproof/security than precise timing of work/payments unless they are obviously taking advantage. You have trusted them to undertake a large home extension so surely you must trust them with the timing of work done and payment.
Personally I would be more bothered about quality of the work and waterproof/security than precise timing of work/payments unless they are obviously taking advantage. You have trusted them to undertake a large home extension so surely you must trust them with the timing of work done and payment.
'First fix' electrics obviously only refers to electrics and 'first fix' plumbing only to plumbing - of course windows and doors (or walls and roof) are not covered in that description - but that is not really what the OP is asking. He wants to know if its reasonable for the builder to have already fitted the windows and doors when the project is at the end of the 'first fix' phase.
The answer to that has to be generally yes - I think I would struggle with the idea of releasing a payment to that stage of completion if the building or extension is not weathertight. A look at the builders project programme would solve the issue - presuming he has one and has issued it?
The answer to that has to be generally yes - I think I would struggle with the idea of releasing a payment to that stage of completion if the building or extension is not weathertight. A look at the builders project programme would solve the issue - presuming he has one and has issued it?
My experience is it is normal to pay for what has been done and not what hasn't.. It should be as simple as that. Does the invoice you've been presented include the amount for windows or not? Or was the quote not broken down enough for you to tell?
The other consideration is if the windows are ordered and/or on site, it would be normal to be invoiced for the deposit or even full cost of the windows.
You can't expect contractors to fund the cash flow of a big build for you, or if you do you'll pay for the luxury of that.
if you've agreed something different that's fine but I guess you wouldn't be here asking for opinions if that were the case.
The other consideration is if the windows are ordered and/or on site, it would be normal to be invoiced for the deposit or even full cost of the windows.
You can't expect contractors to fund the cash flow of a big build for you, or if you do you'll pay for the luxury of that.
if you've agreed something different that's fine but I guess you wouldn't be here asking for opinions if that were the case.
miroku1 said:
I didnt say plumbing and electrics , though you wont find electricians or plumbers first fixing without windows in
Depends on many things, I was a site agent and we would regularly first fix before windows / doors were fitted for speed, you couldn't fix the windows as the scaffolding was still up.We occasionally even plastered,before they were fitted - possibly because it was a flat / terrace or there was a delay on the windows - we just left the reveals.
In crappy areas it would be common to fit windows first to reduce the chance of theft / vandalism
Thank you all for the replies- really helpful!
The contract as signed a few months ago splits the whole job into the following stages, alongside the payment percentage:
Deposit 10%
Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%
Hence my question as to whether I should normally expect windows and doors to be in before I pay the latest invoice- in hindsight, I should have got the job broken down more specifically, both for each payment stage, and for what we get for the money! But you live and learn...hopefully won’t have to go through all this again, in this lifetime at least!
Jambo85 said:
Does the invoice you've been presented include the amount for windows or not? Or was the quote not broken down enough for you to tell?
The latest invoice says ‘completion of first fix’ The contract as signed a few months ago splits the whole job into the following stages, alongside the payment percentage:
Deposit 10%
Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%
Hence my question as to whether I should normally expect windows and doors to be in before I pay the latest invoice- in hindsight, I should have got the job broken down more specifically, both for each payment stage, and for what we get for the money! But you live and learn...hopefully won’t have to go through all this again, in this lifetime at least!
V8RX7 said:
Depends on many things, I was a site agent and we would regularly first fix before windows / doors were fitted for speed, you couldn't fix the windows as the scaffolding was still up.
We occasionally even plastered,before they were fitted - possibly because it was a flat / terrace or there was a delay on the windows - we just left the reveals.
In crappy areas it would be common to fit windows first to reduce the chance of theft / vandalism
Christ, glad we weren’t working on your sites then!We occasionally even plastered,before they were fitted - possibly because it was a flat / terrace or there was a delay on the windows - we just left the reveals.
In crappy areas it would be common to fit windows first to reduce the chance of theft / vandalism
Ukjetman said:
The latest invoice says ‘completion of first fix’
The contract as signed a few months ago splits the whole job into the following stages, alongside the payment percentage:
Deposit 10%
Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%
Hence my question as to whether I should normally expect windows and doors to be in before I pay the latest invoice- in hindsight, I should have got the job broken down more specifically, both for each payment stage, and for what we get for the money! But you live and learn...hopefully won’t have to go through all this again, in this lifetime at least!
When you pay this invoice there will only be 10% of the total completed house price left to pay?The contract as signed a few months ago splits the whole job into the following stages, alongside the payment percentage:
Deposit 10%
Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%
Hence my question as to whether I should normally expect windows and doors to be in before I pay the latest invoice- in hindsight, I should have got the job broken down more specifically, both for each payment stage, and for what we get for the money! But you live and learn...hopefully won’t have to go through all this again, in this lifetime at least!
I don't know the legalities of your contract, but I'm pretty sure you'll be nowhere near 90% of the works done before the windows go in.
Ukjetman said:
Deposit 10%
Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%
This is mine, which ironically doesn't state first fix - but did include it after watertight and before plastering:Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%
Demolition, Foundations, Drainage & Services to Slab
Walls to Wall Plate Level
Water/Air Tight
Plastered
Snagging Completed
At that point I had a large first fixed, plastered house - that took 16 weeks and £157k in 2012. That including knocking the old house down. I paid a fixed sum every week.
Ukjetman said:
Thank you all for the replies- really helpful!
The latest invoice says ‘completion of first fix’
The contract as signed a few months ago splits the whole job into the following stages, alongside the payment percentage:
Deposit 10%
Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%
Bloody hell.The latest invoice says ‘completion of first fix’
The contract as signed a few months ago splits the whole job into the following stages, alongside the payment percentage:
Deposit 10%
Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%
You should have asked before agreeing to that.
The problem is that you're already screwed, you've paid for far more than you've had done.
On that basis I revise my answer - you want the windows and as mush else as you can get, there is a very real chance you won't see them again, after you've paid this payment.
Ukjetman said:
The latest invoice says ‘completion of first fix’
The contract as signed a few months ago splits the whole job into the following stages, alongside the payment percentage:
Deposit 10%
Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%
Hence my question as to whether I should normally expect windows and doors to be in before I pay the latest invoice- in hindsight, I should have got the job broken down more specifically, both for each payment stage, and for what we get for the money! But you live and learn...hopefully won’t have to go through all this again, in this lifetime at least!
The contract as signed a few months ago splits the whole job into the following stages, alongside the payment percentage:
Deposit 10%
Completion of ground works 20%
Completion of brickwork to roof level 20%
Completion of roof 20%
Completion of first fix 20%
Completion of works 10%
Hence my question as to whether I should normally expect windows and doors to be in before I pay the latest invoice- in hindsight, I should have got the job broken down more specifically, both for each payment stage, and for what we get for the money! But you live and learn...hopefully won’t have to go through all this again, in this lifetime at least!
Yes now you've explained that I'd be wanting windows in before paying your latest invoice!
When we tendered ours it was all broken down - sent it to four contractors, only one of whom responded with a proper breakdown by the requested date; they got the job. One other responded with a breakdown but two weeks late after loads of chasing and the other two gave a one line quote just about on time.
We've had plenty of other problems though so I'm not being smug!
When we tendered ours it was all broken down - sent it to four contractors, only one of whom responded with a proper breakdown by the requested date; they got the job. One other responded with a breakdown but two weeks late after loads of chasing and the other two gave a one line quote just about on time.
We've had plenty of other problems though so I'm not being smug!
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