Smart meters - Avoid?

[Cold]

If the lightbulb is on and the TV is on, then they're most likely using electricity and costing you money.

There, saved you the fuss of having a smart meter installed.

[blueg33]

otherman said:

Simpo Two said:

They're incentivising you to have one. Now why would that be - because you benefit, or them?

It's because the regulator says they have to incentivise it. We have regulation for a reason.

Isn’t the reason the government’s commitment to reduce C02 emissions? We have data the shows people with smart meters tend to have lower consumption than those without as long as they have the device in the house that shows consumption etc. However, we only have this data for about 200 houses.

[Condi]

blueg33 said:

Isn’t the reason the government’s commitment to reduce C02 emissions? We have data the shows people with smart meters tend to have lower consumption than those without as long as they have the device in the house that shows consumption etc. However, we only have this data for about 200 houses.

There are many benefits to smart meters, from an industry and environmental perspective.

At the moment it takes 2 years from the time of use to finish off all the billing rounds. Even then it's by no means 100% accurate. Instead of waiting for 3 months for a customer to send a meter reading, which is sometimes wrong, and having to deal with all that admin, the smart meter sends an accurate reading within hours or days. This is obviously a huge saving in administration costs and just much more efficient. Lower number of call staff required, no meter reading staff (if anyone has that any more) etc.

Smart meters may encourage people to consider how much energy they are using, as you say.

The biggest reason however, is that in 4 or 5 years time the market will move to half hourly settlement pricing for domestic consumers as well as industry. Electricity has a different price every half hour, which changes throughout the day in response to demand or renewable generation. Power at 3am is nearly always cheaper than power at 6pm because demand is a lot lower. Equally times when there is a lot of wind power is cheaper than times of low wind. In the energy world high price = high carbon emissions. You're having to pay to bring more and more expensive and polluting generation onto the system. Large customers already pay different prices each HH to reflect wholesale costs, whereas consumers generally pay a flat price, and so have no incentive to move their consumption to a cheaper time. Octopus Agile tariff is the first mainstream tariff to bill customers differently each HH, and that will become the norm in 5 or 10 years time. This should help shift demand away from the expensive (high polluting) times to cheaper periods. For example, if it costs 30p/kwh at 7pm but 15p at 10pm, this encourages people to put the dishwasher on later, shifting some of that demand away from the evening peak. There are numerous software systems in development which will automate all of this, so you'll say to the dishwasher that you want it to be clean by 7am, and it choses the cheapest time overnight to use power. The upside of this, for consumers, is that power does sometimes go negative, so you can get paid to use electric, rather than always paying, if you're smarter about when you use it.

[scottyp123]

I do a bit of research every year when its time to change electric companies and I've found that nearly all the companies charge a pretty similar rate which is around 15p per kWhr, it may be slightly less or more but broadly all the standard tariffs are the same.

At the moment dumb meters like mine don't have any ability to vary that tariff at all so I will pay the 15p all day long, is anyone seriously expecting the variable tariffs to be cheaper than that at any time? As far as I can see the only thing that will happen is the 15p will become the cheap rate and the peak rate will increase to 30p per kWhr or more, what advantage is there for the consumer? The only way it will be an advantage is if the dumb standard tariff goes up to the 30p per unit.

Big clive has done a tear down on a smart meter to see what is inside them, not sure if its a first or second generation one though.



As he says, the biggest problem is they have the ability to measure apparent power just like commercial metering does, in the domestic market you only get billed for actual power. Its hard to explain but when you have stuff plugged in with a rubbish power factor, like a lot of cheap power supplies or big motors then the voltage and the current get out of step with each other and this produces more demand on the grid so gets billed for.

Its never really been a problem in houses but cheap crappy power supplies are everywhere now, every LED lamp will have one inside for a start and you would be amazed how bad the actual power factor can be in them.

[Condi]

scottyp123 said:

I do a bit of research every year when its time to change electric companies and I've found that nearly all the companies charge a pretty similar rate which is around 15p per kWhr, it may be slightly less or more but broadly all the standard tariffs are the same.

At the moment dumb meters like mine don't have any ability to vary that tariff at all so I will pay the 15p all day long, is anyone seriously expecting the variable tariffs to be cheaper than that at any time? As far as I can see the only thing that will happen is the 15p will become the cheap rate and the peak rate will increase to 30p per kWhr or more, what advantage is there for the consumer? The only way it will be an advantage is if the dumb standard tariff goes up to the 30p per unit.

The energy market is about the most competitive market in the UK - whoever you buy from, the power comes from the same sources and goes down the same wires. Most energy companies make very very little profit, Bulb for example lost £60m 2 years ago when building up its customer base. The idea that the market would somehow "agree" that 15p/kwh would be the lowest they would charge, and so everyone would make a fortune just doesn't reflect how the market works at all. It's incredibly cut-throat and incredibly competitive.

Look here, this is a chart of Octopus Agile prices, per HH. At the moment things are quite expensive because wind generation is low, but look back to 4th May for example and the price overnight went down to £0.0 - totally free. You can see historic prices by month, and notice how last year during Covid it was really quite cheap. Wholesale prices do go negative or to £0 at times.

https://agileprices.co.uk/

[jmn]

A question about installation.

My Gas Meter is in a box outside my front door.

My Electricity Meter is in a cupboard inside the front door and on the opposite side.

Would the installers remove both of the existing meters and install a smart meter where the electricity meter is currently situated?

[Condi]

You would have a new gas meter and a new electric meter replacing the current ones.

You'd then also get a display which would connect to both and sit in your house showing you the data from both meters.

[Halmyre]

Humpy D said:

I agreed to have a smart electricity meter fitted by Eon as it was 'demanded' by the tariff. They made an appointment for Tuesday 11 May between 12 & 4 which I was happy with and confirmed but nobody showed up and I've had nothing to from Eon to explain why.

The meters may be smart but it seems the companies who organise the bookings less so!

That's because Eon are a fking useless load of clueless s with their heads firmly wedged in their rectum and all the attention span of a goldfish with advanced dementia.

We spent nearly a year trying to switch to them from another supplier and they were insistent our address was 'wrong' because it wasn't in the 'database' (it was, but with a house name in addition to the street number) and because of this they couldn't complete the switch-over from the previous supplier, all the while taking various sums from the direct debit and endlessly bombarding us with requests to make an appointment to have a smart meter fitted.

In the end we threw in the towel and went to Octopus, who made the switch-over within days, no problems with the address. They keep us regularly informed of our energy usage and costs, and haven't once mentioned a smart meter.

[LocoBlade]

Condi said:

You would have a new gas meter and a new electric meter replacing the current ones.

You'd then also get a display which would connect to both and sit in your house showing you the data from both meters.

Yep the gas meter is a low powered battery device due to the obvious lack of electricity supply around a gas main. That meter then talks every so often to the fully powered electric meter that manages the communication with the supplier and your smart meter display.

[jet_noise]

blueg33 said:

Isn’t the reason the government’s commitment to reduce C02 emissions? We have data the shows people with smart meters tend to have lower consumption than those without as long as they have the device in the house that shows consumption etc. However, we only have this data for about 200 houses.

I've got in mind that more people have a honeymoon effect, I can't find the study that demonstrated this.

Assuming for a moment that there are a significant number of people who don't connect (pun intended) switching/leaving stuff on with bill size such customers will change their behaviour for a while then return to the bad habits as it takes some effort to be economic. And such savings can be modest.

[scottyp123]

Condi said:

scottyp123 said:

I do a bit of research every year when its time to change electric companies and I've found that nearly all the companies charge a pretty similar rate which is around 15p per kWhr, it may be slightly less or more but broadly all the standard tariffs are the same.

At the moment dumb meters like mine don't have any ability to vary that tariff at all so I will pay the 15p all day long, is anyone seriously expecting the variable tariffs to be cheaper than that at any time? As far as I can see the only thing that will happen is the 15p will become the cheap rate and the peak rate will increase to 30p per kWhr or more, what advantage is there for the consumer? The only way it will be an advantage is if the dumb standard tariff goes up to the 30p per unit.

The energy market is about the most competitive market in the UK - whoever you buy from, the power comes from the same sources and goes down the same wires. Most energy companies make very very little profit, Bulb for example lost £60m 2 years ago when building up its customer base. The idea that the market would somehow "agree" that 15p/kwh would be the lowest they would charge, and so everyone would make a fortune just doesn't reflect how the market works at all. It's incredibly cut-throat and incredibly competitive.

Look here, this is a chart of Octopus Agile prices, per HH. At the moment things are quite expensive because wind generation is low, but look back to 4th May for example and the price overnight went down to £0.0 - totally free. You can see historic prices by month, and notice how last year during Covid it was really quite cheap. Wholesale prices do go negative or to £0 at times.

https://agileprices.co.uk/

I've just done a comparison on Gocompare and the first 30 results all had the electric at between 15p and 18p a unit, every one had the gas at just over 3p a unit. The standing charge varied a little bit between each one but overall they were all basically the same.

Does anyone really thing that if they get a smart meter the unit cost will go down lower than the 15p in off peak times, 15p or more is what they already charge for it at night on a standard tariff so I doubt it will get any cheaper than that on a smart tariff when everything gets into full swing with these things.

[Mr Whippy]

Time to get a bit of solar, and a battery, and charge at lowest prices and then carry on as normal?

I assume battery etc is all behind the meter, so all they’ll see is a nice linear load during the cheap times.

Sorted.

[toastyhamster]

For those with solar, how does having a leccy smart meter work with the FIT stuff? I can't remember the numbers but I get payments based on the assumption I export a % to the grid, if I actually export less will I be receiving less from the solar generation? Conversely were they too conservative with the assumption of the % and I'm likely to get more?

[Condi]

scottyp123 said:

Does anyone really thing that if they get a smart meter the unit cost will go down lower than the 15p in off peak times, 15p or more is what they already charge for it at night on a standard tariff so I doubt it will get any cheaper than that on a smart tariff when everything gets into full swing with these things.

It will. At the moment that 15p is balanced between the expected use across high price periods and low priced periods. Once you then split that out, that 15p is made of (roughly) 5p overnights and 10p across the day. If you charge customers on a time basis then you can make the same money by charging people 5p overnight and 10p during the day, but customers will naturally move what use they can to the cheaper periods.

There are EV charging tariffs which work like that, you pay 4p for overnight and a fixed price (17/18p whatever) for the day.

[jmn]

Thanks for the info. Am I correct in assuming that the Smart Meter would be installed in the cupboard inside the house rather than the box outside?

[northwest monkey]

LocoBlade said:

Alucidnation said:

How does a smart meter save you money?

A cheaper tariff for starters

If you can see what you're using when, it seems pretty logical that you could use that information to adjust your usage or identify inefficient appliances etc and save a bit on the bills.

Doesn't happen though in reality. We've had a smart meter for a couple of years & not noticed any difference. We put the lights on when it gets dark, the heating on when it's cold & the TV on when we want to watch something.

[Mr Whippy]

Condi said:

It will. At the moment that 15p is balanced between the expected use across high price periods and low priced periods. Once you then split that out, that 15p is made of (roughly) 5p overnights and 10p across the day. If you charge customers on a time basis then you can make the same money by charging people 5p overnight and 10p during the day, but customers will naturally move what use they can to the cheaper periods.

There are EV charging tariffs which work like that, you pay 4p for overnight and a fixed price (17/18p whatever) for the day.

Surely that’s 20p day 5p night, roughly?

Anyhow, batteries will become very cost viable if this charging structure is the future.

That way central power generation can assume a more flat load.

Imo it’s win win all round, assuming you can sort yourself a battery.

[Zoon]

If you wish to get 5p KwH on a TOU tariff then you'll need one.

[Wombat3]

Condi said:

It will. At the moment that 15p is balanced between the expected use across high price periods and low priced periods. Once you then split that out, that 15p is made of (roughly) 5p overnights and 10p across the day. If you charge customers on a time basis then you can make the same money by charging people 5p overnight and 10p during the day, but customers will naturally move what use they can to the cheaper periods.

There are EV charging tariffs which work like that, you pay 4p for overnight and a fixed price (17/18p whatever) for the day.

Some weird maths going on there!"

(I think you mean 5p overnight & more like 18-20p during the day).

I'm another one dragging my heels on having a smart meter.

They are designed for the energy company's benefit, not mine. They will be used to "drive behaviour" with the aim of saving money in generation and distribution costs by leveling out demand.

As someone above said, people (especially in flats or terraces/semis) shouldn't have to listen to the neighbour's washing machine on its spin cycle at 4 in the morning or hear the hoover kick off at 10pm because that's when its cheap to run them.

I'd also eat my hat if the price comes down because of a smart meters

[Pothole]

rxe said:

LocoBlade said:

A cheaper tariff for starters

If you can see what you're using when, it seems pretty logical that you could use that information to adjust your usage or identify inefficient appliances etc and save a bit on the bills.

It’s utterly daft though. When you turn something electric on, it costs you money. The hotter and/or noisier it gets, the more money it costs. Are there really sufficient morons in the country who don’t realist that turning the oven on costs money?

There are plenty of non-morons who forget to turn the oven off.

sufficient
adjective
enough; adequate.

Quasi-moronic use of English, there.