Solar PV - economics?
Discussion
Evanivitch said:
The return on energy investment in solar is very good and upto 96% of the panel can be recycled. Would you like to provide any evidence to support the claim you've made?
Well, like all things environmental, there is a difference between “can’ and “will”. There is a factory in France that can recycle them. There are companies in the UK who (for a charge) will presumably get them there. The charge appears to be non-trivial, “apply for a quote’ stuff.
Most will end up in landfill unless something changes to make recycling them cost effective.
Andeh1 said:
Value/saleability of a house? I'd pay more for a house with solar panels. Also man maths to an increased offer if required. We'll make £18k just living here for 10 years based off previous owner's investment.
There is also a certain smug feel good factor turning on the a/c, slower cooker, washing machine, tumble dryer etc knowing it is free to run on a sunny day!
I think it'd be a rare situation where you'd get to choose between two properties where all of the other higher priority criteria had been met.There is also a certain smug feel good factor turning on the a/c, slower cooker, washing machine, tumble dryer etc knowing it is free to run on a sunny day!
Our house came with an old install - i.e. top FIT rate. The presence of this did not really factor into our buying decision - it was a bonus, nothing more. I think we make somewhere between 800-1000 a year in terms of reclaiming the previous owners capital expenditure. It offsets the increased cost of council tax. Also helps offset the cost of running a pool air heat pump in summer.
Maybe on a recent build estate this could be a factor.
What about breakdowns? In 10 years the kit will need replacing, so that's removing the old kit and installing new. How much will that cost?
Say you want to move house, would it put off potential buyers having old solar kit that needs £££ spending on its removal?
If you are lucky enough to be on the high FIT payment and not paid for the install then it kind of works.
Say you want to move house, would it put off potential buyers having old solar kit that needs £££ spending on its removal?
If you are lucky enough to be on the high FIT payment and not paid for the install then it kind of works.
Evanivitch said:
pquinn said:
Have you actually checked the environmental impact of manufacturing PV panels? Nasty high energy non recyclable things.
The return on energy investment in solar is very good and upto 96% of the panel can be recycled. Would you like to provide any evidence to support the claim you've made?We aren't talking bottles or cans or simple scrap here where recycling is an obvious benefit and saving, we're talking mixed hazardous waste that's only processed when people are forced to.
Look forward to seeing some numbers on the energy investment being good - there's a lot of watts embedded in the aluminium, glass, silicon and metals processing.
Either way the greenwashing is a diversion. Home PV with new panels isn't worth installing from an economic point of view *without subsidy* unless another factor is involved, like difficulty getting a grid hookup or something like that. Using it to power an outbuilding - great. As an investment to save on your normal energy bill, maybe not so much.
Have been doing a little light reading and the FIT for new applicants closed in March 2019,there is a new scheme now which is called SEG (Smart Export Guarentee) has been in place since January 2020
Have a read... https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/advice/smart-expo...
A quick look on some energy suppliers websites regarding their SEG tarrifs and payment for generating electricity and exporting back to the grid is between 1p and 6p per kwh
Have a read... https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/advice/smart-expo...
A quick look on some energy suppliers websites regarding their SEG tarrifs and payment for generating electricity and exporting back to the grid is between 1p and 6p per kwh
rustyuk said:
What about breakdowns? In 10 years the kit will need replacing, so that's removing the old kit and installing new. How much will that cost?
Say you want to move house, would it put off potential buyers having old solar kit that needs £££ spending on its removal?
If you are lucky enough to be on the high FIT payment and not paid for the install then it kind of works.
That's not really true though. I know a few people with old systems, all over 10 years old, and the panels are still fine. One person had a new inverter, but solar panels in general are very reliable as they have no moving parts. The ones on Voyager are still working after 30 years in space! The idea that they last 10 years and then need replacing is just nonsense. No doubt the newer panels are even more reliable than those built 10/15 years ago. From memory some of the are backed by 25 year guarantees. Say you want to move house, would it put off potential buyers having old solar kit that needs £££ spending on its removal?
If you are lucky enough to be on the high FIT payment and not paid for the install then it kind of works.
Grid scale solar is economic without subs. There is a big pipeline of 5/10/20MW ground installs happening over the next couple of years.
pquinn said:
Evanivitch said:
pquinn said:
Have you actually checked the environmental impact of manufacturing PV panels? Nasty high energy non recyclable things.
The return on energy investment in solar is very good and upto 96% of the panel can be recycled. Would you like to provide any evidence to support the claim you've made?The WEEE legislation means everyone is forced to recycle electrical and electronic equipment in the EU. That's not PV solar panel specific.
rxe said:
Well, like all things environmental, there is a difference between “can’ and “will”.
There is a factory in France that can recycle them. There are companies in the UK who (for a charge) will presumably get them there. The charge appears to be non-trivial, “apply for a quote’ stuff.
Most will end up in landfill unless something changes to make recycling them cost effective.
They can't end up in landfill because the European wide WEEE legislation forbids it.There is a factory in France that can recycle them. There are companies in the UK who (for a charge) will presumably get them there. The charge appears to be non-trivial, “apply for a quote’ stuff.
Most will end up in landfill unless something changes to make recycling them cost effective.
Is it true that electricity will just start to cost more and the move to finely costed rates (literally changing every 30min was it?) means that having at least a battery and solar alongside might be a good idea?
Right now solar doesn’t make much sense, but if everyone is suddenly pays 30p for their immersion heater at 7pm, then having a solar system topping up your immersion tank to 50degC and then a battery storing some peak solar energy for when unit cost is peaking, it all might start to add up more.
My only interest is in having a bunch on a south facing garage roof with a battery.
Lower install costs (DIY), easier maintenance, power outage cover, and ultimately an above zero ROI.
Yes not beating the markets, historically, but god knows what the next 10-20 years will bring in that regard.
Right now solar doesn’t make much sense, but if everyone is suddenly pays 30p for their immersion heater at 7pm, then having a solar system topping up your immersion tank to 50degC and then a battery storing some peak solar energy for when unit cost is peaking, it all might start to add up more.
My only interest is in having a bunch on a south facing garage roof with a battery.
Lower install costs (DIY), easier maintenance, power outage cover, and ultimately an above zero ROI.
Yes not beating the markets, historically, but god knows what the next 10-20 years will bring in that regard.
Mr Whippy said:
Is it true that electricity will just start to cost more and the move to finely costed rates (literally changing every 30min was it?) means that having at least a battery and solar alongside might be a good idea?
No and yes. No, there is no reason why electric will necessarily cost more in future. The power price is a function of gas, carbon, transmission costs etc which go up and down. Power might cost more overall, it might not.
Yes the market is moving to half hour pricing. Wholesale electric is already priced differently every HH and larger businesses are billed like that, but it will get rolled out to consumers over the next few years. Some tariffs already do charge different amounts per HH.
I suspect what is most likely to occur is a huge increase in vehicle to home systems. Batteries solely for domestic use don't make much sense, but if everyone has a 30Kwh battery sat on the drive, then it could easily be charged during the day, used to power your home across the most expensive couple of hours, and then recharged again at night. Software will make it all fully automatic so you as a homeowner sees no difference, and you will be able to tell the car to retain a certain amount of energy (eg stay 50% full at all times). That would seem to make most sense.
Condi said:
Mr Whippy said:
Is it true that electricity will just start to cost more and the move to finely costed rates (literally changing every 30min was it?) means that having at least a battery and solar alongside might be a good idea?
No and yes. No, there is no reason why electric will necessarily cost more in future. The power price is a function of gas, carbon, transmission costs etc which go up and down. Power might cost more overall, it might not.
Yes the market is moving to half hour pricing. Wholesale electric is already priced differently every HH and larger businesses are billed like that, but it will get rolled out to consumers over the next few years. Some tariffs already do charge different amounts per HH.
I suspect what is most likely to occur is a huge increase in vehicle to home systems. Batteries solely for domestic use don't make much sense, but if everyone has a 30Kwh battery sat on the drive, then it could easily be charged during the day, used to power your home across the most expensive couple of hours, and then recharged again at night. Software will make it all fully automatic so you as a homeowner sees no difference, and you will be able to tell the car to retain a certain amount of energy (eg stay 50% full at all times). That would seem to make most sense.
I do wonder if there’s something we could which might make sense, as you suggest the tech solution of using a car battery as part of an integrated home PV system does make sense.
rxe said:
Evanivitch said:
You can't provide legislation for every ****.
So what do you think will happen when homeowners get confronted by the cost of recycling panels? At the moment, I suspect the answer would be “er, stick ‘em behind the shed”. And then for them to be quietly disposed of. Cheib said:
We’re hoping to exchange on a house in the next week to ten days which I think we’ll live in for 15 years…it’s got a large south facing sloping paddock.
I do wonder if there’s something we could which might make sense, as you suggest the tech solution of using a car battery as part of an integrated home PV system does make sense.
I have been dissuaded from having pv panels at ground level by 2 installers. I have a perfect spot for a large array but have been told that installation costs (hardware and time) is much higher than roof mounted (which is fairly simple), ongoing maintenance to stop vegetation and animals ‘causing issues’ is required, and output being lower, have put me off. So I have a 5kw roof system going on next week instead.I do wonder if there’s something we could which might make sense, as you suggest the tech solution of using a car battery as part of an integrated home PV system does make sense.
soofsayer said:
I have been dissuaded from having pv panels at ground level by 2 installers. I have a perfect spot for a large array but have been told that installation costs (hardware and time) is much higher than roof mounted (which is fairly simple),
Sounds pretty rum. Installing panels at ground level is harder than putting them on a roof a couple of storeys up? Points about shading and vegetation may be relevant but this first one sounds like someone is pulling a fast one. 2Btoo said:
soofsayer said:
I have been dissuaded from having pv panels at ground level by 2 installers. I have a perfect spot for a large array but have been told that installation costs (hardware and time) is much higher than roof mounted (which is fairly simple),
Sounds pretty rum. Installing panels at ground level is harder than putting them on a roof a couple of storeys up? Points about shading and vegetation may be relevant but this first one sounds like someone is pulling a fast one. soofsayer said:
Cheib said:
We’re hoping to exchange on a house in the next week to ten days which I think we’ll live in for 15 years…it’s got a large south facing sloping paddock.
I do wonder if there’s something we could which might make sense, as you suggest the tech solution of using a car battery as part of an integrated home PV system does make sense.
I have been dissuaded from having pv panels at ground level by 2 installers. I have a perfect spot for a large array but have been told that installation costs (hardware and time) is much higher than roof mounted (which is fairly simple), ongoing maintenance to stop vegetation and animals ‘causing issues’ is required, and output being lower, have put me off. So I have a 5kw roof system going on next week instead.I do wonder if there’s something we could which might make sense, as you suggest the tech solution of using a car battery as part of an integrated home PV system does make sense.
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