Renovating an old farmhouse and living on the Pennines
Discussion
This is a fascinating thread!
We have booked to go on a 1-day lime pointing course with these folk next May.
Not particularly to attack the main fabric of our cottage (I know my limits!), but there is a low wall detached from the house that needs some attention, so we thought we might attack it at some point.
Loving the thread: Merry Christmas all
We have booked to go on a 1-day lime pointing course with these folk next May.
Not particularly to attack the main fabric of our cottage (I know my limits!), but there is a low wall detached from the house that needs some attention, so we thought we might attack it at some point.
Loving the thread: Merry Christmas all
Thanks all 
And thanks for the links on the warm waterproof gloves, I bought a couple of the cheaper ones and they've been a Godsend just lately.
Mikeiow you have no limits. Do the course, do the wall then decide whether to have a go on the house (if it needs it!). By that time you'll have gained lots of useful experience, knowledge and confidence.
You'll have to ask your tutor what they think of the NHL V Quicklime debate, see if they've noticed any damage caused by NHLs.
Also, if you have a coal or woodburner you could collect the ash and think about putting it into your wall mix. If you do I've got a link to a PDF online which goes into some detail about it.
I noticed the door mirror collection on the road outside was starting to build so set about having a tidy up:
I didn't have to walk further than 10metres to find those.
Winter is planting time for some things
At my old house i'd planted a few apple trees which we made cider from once a year, homemade cider is fantastic as you can make it just as you like it. In our case it was medium with a sour overtone and about 9%. Any cider you buy is surprisingly not anywhere near 100% apple juice, but ours always was.
We called in at a garden centre as we were passing for a Christmas tree and a few other (hopefully more permanent) trees. I got a few apple trees to see what they'll do, a Monkey Puzzle and some heathers. Some of the heathers were a very bright colour so they'd stand out on the embankment behind the house. It was only as we were loading them into the van that K noticed the matching coloured spray paint on the pots.
Yes, they've actually been spray painted, Ffs, I can't believe I fell for it and nearly returned them for my money back
Like a few other high up places in the UK we were blessed with some amazing weather for two afternoons recently which gave rise to some equally good pictures. We awoke to this:
As the sun rose higher it began to burn it off:
I can't make up my mind which is the best of these two, sun behind bird feeder or to the side so here is both:
As the day wore on:
The low cloud was running below us like a river down the valley to the town where is sat over them.
Surprisingly the French Lavender is surviving, it's been covered in snow and down to -4, but still looks ok:
No question over the heathers, but Japonica and Holly are doing well too:
I knew some of the fields were absolutely siping and I was running a risk, but couldn't resist getting out in the sun. I loaded up Terry with trees, 'locally sourced compost', spade etc and set off to plant them. I was actually working in a T-shirt much of the time.
I've found a sunny, but sheltered corner near the stream to start 'the orchard'
I've chosen a random mix of varieties initially, to see how they go. I think it may be wise to do some research and perhaps find out if there is a certain type suited to this climate.
It looks like it might be a boggy spot, but surprisingly even at this time of the year it isn't. I've found the Soft Rushes there haven't managed to get a good hold for some reason and can be pulled out relatively easily. I ripped out a few, but will go back and do the rest later.
This is what £32 worth of Monkey puzzle tree looks like:
They tend to defy the wind and grow ramrod straight so this will be a good test for it
I hoped the sheep wouldn't nibble at the spiky 'leaves' but the buggers have already had a go and a couple of tips have gone missing. Annoyingly one was spat back out and on the ground, luckily they haven't found the centre one
Todays job was making a bit of fencing around it and here is where the piles of 'stuff' we've carted over come in useful. It's Christmas day and I have no problem laying my hands on Percy Sledge hammer, four posts, (sharpened on the saw) half a roll of galv wire fencing with bolt croppers to snip it to length and a packet of galv U nails.
Much of the ground down there seems well draining and Tezza had no problems getting about.
Not so halfway back, every time I went in I had to slow to go over some large rocks in the gateway, then as I tried to accelerate it just slowed to a halt and sunk every time.
I managed to get out and try again a few times, but eventually it was game over.
It's completely stuck there, I did go back later to try dig it out, but it's now even lower and the underside is sat on the mud.
I hope we don't get too much snow before I can get someone in to pull it out
And thanks for the links on the warm waterproof gloves, I bought a couple of the cheaper ones and they've been a Godsend just lately.
Mikeiow you have no limits. Do the course, do the wall then decide whether to have a go on the house (if it needs it!). By that time you'll have gained lots of useful experience, knowledge and confidence.
You'll have to ask your tutor what they think of the NHL V Quicklime debate, see if they've noticed any damage caused by NHLs.
Also, if you have a coal or woodburner you could collect the ash and think about putting it into your wall mix. If you do I've got a link to a PDF online which goes into some detail about it.
I noticed the door mirror collection on the road outside was starting to build so set about having a tidy up:
I didn't have to walk further than 10metres to find those.
Winter is planting time for some things
At my old house i'd planted a few apple trees which we made cider from once a year, homemade cider is fantastic as you can make it just as you like it. In our case it was medium with a sour overtone and about 9%. Any cider you buy is surprisingly not anywhere near 100% apple juice, but ours always was.
We called in at a garden centre as we were passing for a Christmas tree and a few other (hopefully more permanent) trees. I got a few apple trees to see what they'll do, a Monkey Puzzle and some heathers. Some of the heathers were a very bright colour so they'd stand out on the embankment behind the house. It was only as we were loading them into the van that K noticed the matching coloured spray paint on the pots.
Yes, they've actually been spray painted, Ffs, I can't believe I fell for it and nearly returned them for my money back
Like a few other high up places in the UK we were blessed with some amazing weather for two afternoons recently which gave rise to some equally good pictures. We awoke to this:
As the sun rose higher it began to burn it off:
I can't make up my mind which is the best of these two, sun behind bird feeder or to the side so here is both:
As the day wore on:
The low cloud was running below us like a river down the valley to the town where is sat over them.
Surprisingly the French Lavender is surviving, it's been covered in snow and down to -4, but still looks ok:
No question over the heathers, but Japonica and Holly are doing well too:
I knew some of the fields were absolutely siping and I was running a risk, but couldn't resist getting out in the sun. I loaded up Terry with trees, 'locally sourced compost', spade etc and set off to plant them. I was actually working in a T-shirt much of the time.
I've found a sunny, but sheltered corner near the stream to start 'the orchard'
I've chosen a random mix of varieties initially, to see how they go. I think it may be wise to do some research and perhaps find out if there is a certain type suited to this climate.
It looks like it might be a boggy spot, but surprisingly even at this time of the year it isn't. I've found the Soft Rushes there haven't managed to get a good hold for some reason and can be pulled out relatively easily. I ripped out a few, but will go back and do the rest later.
This is what £32 worth of Monkey puzzle tree looks like:
They tend to defy the wind and grow ramrod straight so this will be a good test for it
I hoped the sheep wouldn't nibble at the spiky 'leaves' but the buggers have already had a go and a couple of tips have gone missing. Annoyingly one was spat back out and on the ground, luckily they haven't found the centre oneTodays job was making a bit of fencing around it and here is where the piles of 'stuff' we've carted over come in useful. It's Christmas day and I have no problem laying my hands on Percy Sledge hammer, four posts, (sharpened on the saw) half a roll of galv wire fencing with bolt croppers to snip it to length and a packet of galv U nails.
Much of the ground down there seems well draining and Tezza had no problems getting about.
Not so halfway back, every time I went in I had to slow to go over some large rocks in the gateway, then as I tried to accelerate it just slowed to a halt and sunk every time.
I managed to get out and try again a few times, but eventually it was game over.
It's completely stuck there, I did go back later to try dig it out, but it's now even lower and the underside is sat on the mud.
I hope we don't get too much snow before I can get someone in to pull it out
I cheated and used what these chaps call pre-mixed fat lime. https://www.lime.org.uk/products/lime/mortars.html
So i gues NOT NHL? But not sure how this compares to quick lime.
So i gues NOT NHL? But not sure how this compares to quick lime.
monkfish1 said:
I cheated and used what these chaps call pre-mixed fat lime. https://www.lime.org.uk/products/lime/mortars.html
So i guess NOT NHL? But not sure how this compares to quick lime.
Yes it's lime putty and it depends on what you used it for and how you or they mixed it. Correct it's not an NHL.So i guess NOT NHL? But not sure how this compares to quick lime.
It's a premixed quicklime so it's safe for use by Joe Public, it's not as good as a Hotmix, but then is it doing the job? If it is then it doesn't matter what anyone says.
Now that aside this is generally what has happened in the past:
When we rediscovered lime we were offered options, but the two which were pushed were NHL and putty.
Everyone knows 3:1 by volume is the ideal mortar mix.
3 Sand/aggregate, 1 cement; perfect
3 " " 1NHL; perfect
Ditto 3 sand/aggregate: 1 powdered quicklime. Perfect.
Now here is where the wheels came off:
3 sand/aggregate: 1 lime putty; Wrong, it's too weak for many outside uses.
3 what? Volume? Weight? Just hang on, putty is wet so wtf do we do with that? All the other 3:1 were dry so it was measured by volume. Yet they mixed WET putty by volume
3:1 Quicklime as a powder is correct, but when it's already mixed and as a putty it's wrong. This is because (unlike OPC) it expands when it's introduced to water, so if you mix it 3:1 putty by volume it's likely closer to 5:1* by initial powdered volume.
Yet for years many didn't notice. Well it takes years for weather to take it's toll.
- I have to admit it's late at night and i've guessed at 5:1, hopefully you get the idea. It's like mixing metric up with imperial and assuming 5 means 5 inches, not 5 cm.
One thing I'd like to take issue with from their site is this:
"Golden Rule: The mortar should always be weaker than the fabric of the building (as it should be the sacrificial part of the construction – easier and cheaper to replace the mortar rather than the brick/ stone)."
Which is true, but to what degree?
It's an uneducated way out. They should almost match, one should not be too stronger/weaker than the other, it should be equal or very close, something like 100 to 98%.
If we go back and take a look at the pic of the mortar on the mill wall, it's not sacrificial. It's over 100yrs old and still there doing it's job untouched. That's because someone local knew the stone, they knew the mix so they made it on site to their recipe and they made it work. They had local knowledge and skill, but we don't have that so much now. Now someone in Cornwall is sending a lime mix to Yorkcestershire to be put on a wall they don't know the first thing about.
Edited by Evoluzione on Sunday 26th December 09:46
Evoluzione said:
(snip]
Mikeiow you have no limits. Do the course, do the wall then decide whether to have a go on the house (if it needs it!). By that time you'll have gained lots of useful experience, knowledge and confidence.
You'll have to ask your tutor what they think of the NHL V Quicklime debate, see if they've noticed any damage caused by NHLs.
Also, if you have a coal or woodburner you could collect the ash and think about putting it into your wall mix. If you do I've got a link to a PDF online which goes into some detail about it.
Oh, I might have limits….but I suspect Mrs mikeiow might be quite handy Mikeiow you have no limits. Do the course, do the wall then decide whether to have a go on the house (if it needs it!). By that time you'll have gained lots of useful experience, knowledge and confidence.
You'll have to ask your tutor what they think of the NHL V Quicklime debate, see if they've noticed any damage caused by NHLs.
Also, if you have a coal or woodburner you could collect the ash and think about putting it into your wall mix. If you do I've got a link to a PDF online which goes into some detail about it.
I will make a note to ask about that. Our wall is quite light/sandy, & perhaps wouldn’t need ash? here’s one corner that looks in need of a little attention:
We did have that wall re-pointed perhaps 10-15 years ago…..a slightly worrying crack, but the place has been there for over 270 years, so fingers crossed…..
The insurance got too tricky (holiday home, thatched!) for our wood burner: now has a reasonably realistic fake wood burner….slightly sad, but way safer for guests!
Love the spray painted heather: a cunning plan!
LocoBlade said:
Looks like you need to get yourself a winch for pulling Terry out of his predicaments
Yep, and a steel front bumper, mud tyres and lift kit.And a locking front diff
The bumper has taken a few knocks now as it's too low and fragile, the more hardcore make or buy steel ones with a bit more clearance and a gap for a winch.
Tyres are a medium range 'off road'. You can go to a full mud tyre which would have helped a lot. Plenty of big chunks of rubber with large gaps in between, even on the sidewalls.
I'm not that knowledgeable on winches, I don't know how long they are, or what you would attach one to in the middle of a field.
I did chat to a neighbour today who has an old 4x4 tractor, he said (and quite rightly) he'll need to get it on somewhere solid to be able to pull me out. He went onto say he's also been stuck a few times in that too. One time another farmer came to pull him out and failed. So they sent for a third guy and had all 3 connected to get out.
Then another neighbour said that the current 'Mother of all tractors' has so many computers on board it will pull anything out by analysing the situation using maths, logic, electronics and magic!
I'm suspecting if I have to go to those lengths it'll be cheaper to leave Terry there and buy another
mikeiow said:
Evoluzione said:
(snip]
Mikeiow you have no limits. Do the course, do the wall then decide whether to have a go on the house (if it needs it!). By that time you'll have gained lots of useful experience, knowledge and confidence.
You'll have to ask your tutor what they think of the NHL V Quicklime debate, see if they've noticed any damage caused by NHLs.
Also, if you have a coal or woodburner you could collect the ash and think about putting it into your wall mix. If you do I've got a link to a PDF online which goes into some detail about it.
Oh, I might have limits….but I suspect Mrs mikeiow might be quite handy Mikeiow you have no limits. Do the course, do the wall then decide whether to have a go on the house (if it needs it!). By that time you'll have gained lots of useful experience, knowledge and confidence.
You'll have to ask your tutor what they think of the NHL V Quicklime debate, see if they've noticed any damage caused by NHLs.
Also, if you have a coal or woodburner you could collect the ash and think about putting it into your wall mix. If you do I've got a link to a PDF online which goes into some detail about it.
I will make a note to ask about that. Our wall is quite light/sandy, & perhaps wouldn’t need ash? here’s one corner that looks in need of a little attention:
We did have that wall re-pointed perhaps 10-15 years ago…..a slightly worrying crack, but the place has been there for over 270 years, so fingers crossed…..
The insurance got too tricky (holiday home, thatched!) for our wood burner: now has a reasonably realistic fake wood burner….slightly sad, but way safer for guests!
Love the spray painted heather: a cunning plan!
What has it been pointed with? It looks like and probably is cement mortar which is naughty if it's got solid walls, but it looks to be coping ok so again, not much to worry about unless you think it isn't.
There are some white bits lower down in the mortar which i'd scratch with something like a steel blade or nail. If they're soft i'm wrong and it's lime, however I'm thinking they're bits of stone or grit, maybe some particles of quartz or similar.
If it's not showing any issues associated with the wrong pointing overall then I wouldn't be too worried at all.
It's really borderline. If you think it'll benefit and you fancy a go then as per above, go through the process and have a go at it.
You might find it quite relaxing and cathartic to be working with masonry and limes, I do so consider that too.
As far as colour and content go you'll find your own buildings genuine mortar colour behind that pointing and whatever remains of the original bedding mortar. Based on that and your own taste then colour your mortar accordingly.
An interesting groove or key in that bottom quoin btw, that indicates the stone was re-used from somewhere else perhaps, unless it was used to quarry the stone in the first place.
You're certainly going about it the right way: Course on lime pointing, practice on garden wall, move onto house wall if confident and it needs it. It couldn't be any better. As I said in an earlier post, you'll find lime pointing to be quite forgiving in comparison to OPC.
Get the basic tools and you're on your way, any questions, just ask.
Edited by Evoluzione on Sunday 26th December 09:37
With my lime pointing it’s taken a while to find a decent churn brush for bashing it with afterwards, I think I’m currently using a travis Perkins one, which I cut the bristles down about 30% to make them stiffer, it seems it really needs to be a natural fiber bristles bush and as stiff as possible.
Good reading OP!
Good reading OP!
Evoluzione said:
LocoBlade said:
Looks like you need to get yourself a winch for pulling Terry out of his predicaments
Yep, and a steel front bumper, mud tyres and lift kit.And a locking front diff
The bumper has taken a few knocks now as it's too low and fragile, the more hardcore make or buy steel ones with a bit more clearance and a gap for a winch.
Tyres are a medium range 'off road'. You can go to a full mud tyre which would have helped a lot. Plenty of big chunks of rubber with large gaps in between, even on the sidewalls.
I'm not that knowledgeable on winches, I don't know how long they are, or what you would attach one to in the middle of a field.
I did chat to a neighbour today who has an old 4x4 tractor, he said (and quite rightly) he'll need to get it on somewhere solid to be able to pull me out. He went onto say he's also been stuck a few times in that too. One time another farmer came to pull him out and failed. So they sent for a third guy and had all 3 connected to get out.
Then another neighbour said that the current 'Mother of all tractors' has so many computers on board it will pull anything out by analysing the situation using maths, logic, electronics and magic!
I'm suspecting if I have to go to those lengths it'll be cheaper to leave Terry there and buy another
Even a farm jack or tirfor winch will do.
Mike 74. I think the countryside is beautiful indeed thanks to the way it is farmed ,dry stone walls,hedges.woodland,variety of different crops and grassland,livestock grazing which is indeed down to Farmers. Just because you neighbour perhaps isn't so tidy is unfortunate for you. Perhaps he is busy,works alone and has issues you know nothing about. I have a neighbour who has (illegally) started breaking cars,selling cars and has 5 horses. Heaps of horse s
t everywhere,weeds,junk,rotten horsebox and knackered trailers,fallen down fences.knackered round bale rings and rotten bales of silage lying around. I don't tar all car dealers with the same brush! Merry Xmas
t everywhere,weeds,junk,rotten horsebox and knackered trailers,fallen down fences.knackered round bale rings and rotten bales of silage lying around. I don't tar all car dealers with the same brush! Merry XmasEvoluzione said:
That crack wouldn't bother me much. perhaps I'd be investigating why it's there and maybe wondering if I could prevent it getting worse, but that's all. Start worrying when you can get your fingers in there
What has it been pointed with? It looks like and probably is cement mortar which is naughty if it's got solid walls, but it looks to be coping ok so again, not much to worry about unless you think it isn't.
There are some white bits lower down in the mortar which i'd scratch with something like a steel blade or nail. If they're soft i'm wrong and it's lime, however I'm thinking they're bits of stone or grit, maybe some particles of quartz or similar.
If it's not showing any issues associated with the wrong pointing overall then I wouldn't be too worried at all.
It's really borderline. If you think it'll benefit and you fancy a go then as per above, go through the process and have a go at it.
You might find it quite relaxing and cathartic to be working with masonry and limes, I do so consider that too.
As far as colour and content go you'll find your own buildings genuine mortar colour behind that pointing and whatever remains of the original bedding mortar. Based on that and your own taste then colour your mortar accordingly.
An interesting groove or key in that bottom quoin btw, that indicates the stone was re-used from somewhere else perhaps, unless it was used to quarry the stone in the first place.
You're certainly going about it the right way: Course on lime pointing, practice on garden wall, move onto house wall if confident and it needs it. It couldn't be any better. As I said in an earlier post, you'll find lime pointing to be quite forgiving in comparison to OPC.
Get the basic tools and you're on your way, any questions, just ask.
Thanks for the encouraging words. What has it been pointed with? It looks like and probably is cement mortar which is naughty if it's got solid walls, but it looks to be coping ok so again, not much to worry about unless you think it isn't.
There are some white bits lower down in the mortar which i'd scratch with something like a steel blade or nail. If they're soft i'm wrong and it's lime, however I'm thinking they're bits of stone or grit, maybe some particles of quartz or similar.
If it's not showing any issues associated with the wrong pointing overall then I wouldn't be too worried at all.
It's really borderline. If you think it'll benefit and you fancy a go then as per above, go through the process and have a go at it.
You might find it quite relaxing and cathartic to be working with masonry and limes, I do so consider that too.
As far as colour and content go you'll find your own buildings genuine mortar colour behind that pointing and whatever remains of the original bedding mortar. Based on that and your own taste then colour your mortar accordingly.
An interesting groove or key in that bottom quoin btw, that indicates the stone was re-used from somewhere else perhaps, unless it was used to quarry the stone in the first place.
You're certainly going about it the right way: Course on lime pointing, practice on garden wall, move onto house wall if confident and it needs it. It couldn't be any better. As I said in an earlier post, you'll find lime pointing to be quite forgiving in comparison to OPC.
Get the basic tools and you're on your way, any questions, just ask.
Might be quite some time before we get to actually working on the wall....but will certainly bookmark this thread anyway!
Re-use is certainly the name of the game for a mid-1700s cottage, I have to say - one main upright post in the lounge looks like it was recovered from a shipwrecked ship (quite possible back in the day).
We do believe the wall was done using lime mortar - that was specifically what we had chosen the guy to do, although back then we could have easily been taken for a ride!
It does look broadly okay, & I agree with no worrying too much about that crack...be nice to help correct it over time though
Getting the basic tools will be on the list. Might be guided by the folks at Carrington Lime on that topic: who knows: maybe they have some equipment to sell their customers after they have trained them....I would if I were them!
Evoluzione said:
Thanks, I joked to my OH the other day that I should put my scribblings to better use and write a book, but don't think i'm good enough or people would buy it. It came off the back of sitting here for a few hrs putting just one post together.
There was also a similar thing done by one of the long term owners of Tan Hill, that was a pleasant enough read.
Panda is too small and basic. As we age I think we want something a bit more spacious and barge like, I want something with a bit of heft and a large torquey diesel engine.
Jeep Cherokees are under the spotlight at the moment, there seems to be anything to suit any pocket and a massive amount and range to look at. I've still got to investigate the drivetrain on them though, have no idea what the system is, whether full time, part time 4wd, locking diffs etc.
Fab thread OP - 16 pages or something in and it's most interesting. I can associate with much of you troubles having renovated an old cottage in Snowdonia at about 500 m ASL, and having the water coming in the front wall through the OPC.There was also a similar thing done by one of the long term owners of Tan Hill, that was a pleasant enough read.
Panda is too small and basic. As we age I think we want something a bit more spacious and barge like, I want something with a bit of heft and a large torquey diesel engine.
Jeep Cherokees are under the spotlight at the moment, there seems to be anything to suit any pocket and a massive amount and range to look at. I've still got to investigate the drivetrain on them though, have no idea what the system is, whether full time, part time 4wd, locking diffs etc.
Anyway I can add something re the Cherokee, as I've had one for the last 3 years or so as a snow car, and as something to tug about big trailers and the like. Mine is the 'never buy' 2.7 straight 5. No signs of catasrophic failure at the moment, and it's pretty good at starting and driving. On the plus side
1) Excellent 4 WD system. Truly excellent. I've had Subarus, Isuzus and a few others (never land rover), and this is by far the best. I do a fair bit of towing on wet sodden fields, and this never fails. It's great. (3 LSD's as far as I can tell).
2) Excellent towing capability.
3) Comfy seats, and quite plush inside.
4) Very cheap to buy. We've had decent reliability out of ours.
And some downsides.
1) It's terrible to drive. Truly terrible, with the steering wheel not connected to the front wheels other than by post. (There's a very poor steering box on it).
2) It has some poor software design - if the battery is not 100%, and the voltage drops below say 11.5 v on cranking, it looses comms between the gearbox ECU and the engine ECU, and won't change gear.
3) It's quite slow.
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