Renovating an old farmhouse and living on the Pennines

Renovating an old farmhouse and living on the Pennines

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Evoluzione

Original Poster:

10,345 posts

244 months

Friday 7th January 2022
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I've found it, sorry if it's a little pompous, smug, or even a romantic notion in this day and age, but after the research and work i've been doing it does ring true. It's by William Morris:

It has been most truly said at our meetings that:
"these old buildings do not belong to us only; that they have belonged to our forefathers, and they will belong to our descendants unless we play them false. They are not in any sense our property, to do as we like with. We are only trustees for those that come after us."

Edited by Evoluzione on Saturday 8th January 09:16

mikeiow

5,378 posts

131 months

Saturday 8th January 2022
quotequote all
Evoluzione said:
I've found it, sorry if it's a little pompous, smug, or even a romantic notion in this day and age, but after the research and work i've been doing it does make me think. It's by William Morris:

It has been most truly said at our meetings that:
"these old buildings do not belong to us only; that they have belonged to our forefathers, and they will belong to our descendants unless we play them false. They are not in any sense our property, to do as we like with. We are only trustees for those that come after us."
I like that!
I’ve always said we are only custodians of our thatched cottage….trying our best to keep it in good shape, improve the bits that need fixing. It will be around long after I’ve shuffled off…..

William Morris….that reminds me of the trip we had just pre-Covid to meet some pals at Nuffield Place , owned by William Morris…..sadly for my wife, it was was the William Morris of Morris Cars, not the designer you quote: she was most disappointed hehe
(but it was a great place to visit nonetheless!)

C Lee Farquar

4,069 posts

217 months

Saturday 8th January 2022
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We delivered the concrete for a new building at his country house at Kelmscott two years ago. It's still closed for refurbishment now. Lovely place from the outside.

Going back to lime, I used NHL3.5 for a new build, all 3:1 with a BS1200 sand. It was a process that people more used to using cement could adapt to easily. It was also cost effective for me.

We did sometimes get white lumps when a bag of lime had gone a bit hard, but done properly, no.

Also, absolutely agree on winter working, not as big an issue as sometimes touted. Important that the masonry is dry in the winter, we then covered with bubblewrap.

Some did get hit by frost but it only caused minor spalling. Brushed off it looked fine, I actually preferred it, it made the wall look more established.

I didn't use any gypsum internally either, I just don't like plasterboard and modern plasters.

IanA2

2,763 posts

163 months

Saturday 8th January 2022
quotequote all
Evoluzione said:
I've found it, sorry if it's a little pompous, smug, or even a romantic notion in this day and age, but after the research and work i've been doing it does make me think. It's by William Morris:

It has been most truly said at our meetings that:
"these old buildings do not belong to us only; that they have belonged to our forefathers, and they will belong to our descendants unless we play them false. They are not in any sense our property, to do as we like with. We are only trustees for those that come after us."
Also oft quoted Morris:

'Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be beautiful or believe to be useful'

A useful maxim.

psi310398

9,112 posts

204 months

Saturday 8th January 2022
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IanA2 said:
Also oft quoted Morris:

'Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be beautiful or believe to be useful'

A useful maxim.
That would see me booting out several family members, including myself on two grounds, thensmile

Evoluzione

Original Poster:

10,345 posts

244 months

Saturday 8th January 2022
quotequote all
mikeiow said:
I like that!
I’ve always said we are only custodians of our thatched cottage….trying our best to keep it in good shape, improve the bits that need fixing. It will be around long after I’ve shuffled off…..

William Morris….that reminds me of the trip we had just pre-Covid to meet some pals at Nuffield Place , owned by William Morris…..sadly for my wife, it was was the William Morris of Morris Cars, not the designer you quote: she was most disappointed hehe
(but it was a great place to visit nonetheless!)
Reading a bit of Morris was a welcome break from constantly humming 'This ol' house' by Shakin' Stevens as I work hehe



IanA2 said:
Also oft quoted Morris:

'Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be beautiful or believe to be useful'

A useful maxim.
Yes it's very true, problem is you never know when something will come in handy!
It would be good to carve some of these into stone and leave them around in various inconspicuous places around the place. We both went on a beginner course for stone lettering so know a little bit about it.



C Lee Farquar said:
We delivered the concrete for a new building at his country house at Kelmscott two years ago. It's still closed for refurbishment now. Lovely place from the outside.

Going back to lime, I used NHL3.5 for a new build, all 3:1 with a BS1200 sand. It was a process that people more used to using cement could adapt to easily. It was also cost effective for me.

We did sometimes get white lumps when a bag of lime had gone a bit hard, but done properly, no.

Also, absolutely agree on winter working, not as big an issue as sometimes touted. Important that the masonry is dry in the winter, we then covered with bubblewrap.

Some did get hit by frost but it only caused minor spalling. Brushed off it looked fine, I actually preferred it, it made the wall look more established.

I didn't use any gypsum internally either, I just don't like plasterboard and modern plasters.
What did you use internally?
NHL is perfect for use with modern cavity walls, but you have to ask yourself for what reason you would use it. It's far more expensive for instance. Why that is i'm not sure, whether it's down to manufacturing costs or simply demand.

As far as frost resistance goes it's the Quicklime which is said to be the best - note I haven't proved it personally.
Lime is said to be more environmentally friendly because OPC emits Co2 when being made, yet lime absorbs it when setting. I haven't explored the Green aspect as it's a huge topic, much like the use of EVs V fossil fuel, with lots of fake or strawman arguments thrown in and difficult to prove/disprove facts.


C Lee Farquar

4,069 posts

217 months

Saturday 8th January 2022
quotequote all
Evoluzione said:
What did you use internally?
NHL is perfect for use with modern cavity walls, but you have to ask yourself for what reason you would use it. It's far more expensive for instance. Why that is i'm not sure, whether it's down to manufacturing costs or simply demand.

As far as frost resistance goes it's the Quicklime which is said to be the best - note I haven't proved it personally.
Lime is said to be more environmentally friendly because OPC emits Co2 when being made, yet lime absorbs it when setting. I haven't explored the Green aspect as it's a huge topic, much like the use of EVs V fossil fuel, with lots of fake or strawman arguments thrown in and difficult to prove/disprove facts.
I used lime because I prefer the way it looks and weathers. Buying by the pallet I was paying about £10 a bag IIRC. I cant remember how much we used, probably four pallets, so I'd guess a little over a grand extra to using cement. I was in no rush and the house has a large footprint for it's size so curing speed was never an issue.

Internally most of the walls are exposed brick or stone other than the kids rooms. I used lime hemp plaster for the plastered walls and ceilings. The ceiling are sawn oak lath or wood wool board.

The hemp plaster did get expensive, it never seemed to go as far as I hoped! But I love the texture of it so no regrets.

No special skills to using the hemp plaster, just get used to leaving a few days between coats.

Tigerfox

5 posts

73 months

Sunday 9th January 2022
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Plastic drainage pipe needs a layer of gravel on it to make it work properly and filter the mud out. So i suspect that was the cause of the problem.

If you put it back make sure you have a decent fall on it and a covering of gravel. Water will run along the top of the pipe rather then go in to the pipe, strange but true and have witnessed it many times.

Older Victorian drains are often deeper and usually run clear. Connect them in if you come across any, otherwise they will blow up somewhere.

Working from the lowest point is always prefrable but not always possible and marking where the drains are bubbling up is the right way. It will be a long process and you should win in the end

Evoluzione

Original Poster:

10,345 posts

244 months

Sunday 9th January 2022
quotequote all
C Lee Farquar said:
I used lime because I prefer the way it looks and weathers. Buying by the pallet I was paying about £10 a bag IIRC. I cant remember how much we used, probably four pallets, so I'd guess a little over a grand extra to using cement. I was in no rush and the house has a large footprint for it's size so curing speed was never an issue.

Internally most of the walls are exposed brick or stone other than the kids rooms. I used lime hemp plaster for the plastered walls and ceilings. The ceiling are sawn oak lath or wood wool board.

The hemp plaster did get expensive, it never seemed to go as far as I hoped! But I love the texture of it so no regrets.

No special skills to using the hemp plaster, just get used to leaving a few days between coats.
It sounds like a very interesting build and I like the way you've successfully blended old materials with new methods. Not only must it give off a visual warmth, but also be a healthier living environment.


Tigerfox said:
Plastic drainage pipe needs a layer of gravel on it to make it work properly and filter the mud out. So i suspect that was the cause of the problem.

If you put it back make sure you have a decent fall on it and a covering of gravel. Water will run along the top of the pipe rather then go in to the pipe, strange but true and have witnessed it many times.

Older Victorian drains are often deeper and usually run clear. Connect them in if you come across any, otherwise they will blow up somewhere.

Working from the lowest point is always preferable but not always possible and marking where the drains are bubbling up is the right way. It will be a long process and you should win in the end
Yes you're right, as you probably know you can buy socks which cover the pipe to prevent mud from getting in, but how effective they are (in not becoming blocked themselves) I don't know.
I do hope I can get the old system to work, if and where it isn't, I actually haven't found one blocked yet on my land, but it's early days. If there are areas which are lacking in drainage then yes, I will link to the existing stone ones with some PVC pipe. We are in warmer and wetter times now, maybe that isn't helping.
The pipe is flowing well, but i'm not sure if at 100% so may have mud laid on the bottom of it and as you say, needs pulling up and relaying. It may not even be big enough to cope at peak flow.

We had snow then a lot of rain which melted it meaning a heck of a lot of water has gone into the ground at once, this has exceeded the capacity of whatever (probably the PVC pipe) is draining the part where the hole is. Yesterday it was bubbling over yet again.

The chaps idea of a sender unit and CAT scanner sounds perfect. I've seen the local council have put some of their CAT scanners up for sale on an auction so may have a punt, but I'm worried I don't know the first thing about them and why they are getting rid of them.
I would prefer to buy as much equipment as possible rather than hire, the job will be on and off for a number of years especially if other fields need the same kind of investigations.
The cable is cheap enough, aforementioned scanner could possibly be so too. That just means i've got to find a sender, if not at least just hiring one wouldn't be too bad.

Then after all that create a pond to keep the wildlife happy when their wetlands have been reduced! I keep seeing the odd frog here and there, but there is no permanent standing water for them. I don't know how they're surviving without it.

CharlesdeGaulle

26,297 posts

181 months

Sunday 9th January 2022
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I think I'm right in saying that frogs don't need standing water. They need ponds to mate and lay but don't live in them. Obviously they need damp areas but suspect you can guarantee that year-round where you are!

A pond would be a great thing to have though, especially with all your water and land, and obviously they attract other things too.

Evoluzione

Original Poster:

10,345 posts

244 months

Sunday 9th January 2022
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CharlesdeGaulle said:
I think I'm right in saying that frogs don't need standing water. They need ponds to mate and lay but don't live in them. Obviously they need damp areas but suspect you can guarantee that year-round where you are!

A pond would be a great thing to have though, especially with all your water and land, and obviously they attract other things too.
Where would the tadpoles live? I know some toads don't need water as they don't all produce tadpoles.

CharlesdeGaulle said:
obviously they attract other things too.
Yes, sadly midges. You would hope that anything else living there would feed on their larvae and that the pond would be too far from the house to worry us, but not sure.
We do now have a big midge problem in Summer, hopefully managing the water around us so it flows rather than soaks all the ground will help get rid of them.
I was chatting to the daughter of one of the past owners who lived here in the 80s and 90s, they said it wasn't an issue back then. Also back then they were snowed in for weeks at a time, it's probably this change in temps that has allowed them to multiply, then further helped by the lack of maintenance and damage to drainage soaking the land.

Evoluzione

Original Poster:

10,345 posts

244 months

Sunday 16th January 2022
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Animals again. Some of this is a touch old as I started writing it last Autumn.

Aside from laying next to me the current favourite cat spot is on the pouffe by the wood burner.



I haven't trained her to throw logs on yet.

Wherever she's lived she always prefers rainwater to tap water and likes to trot out for a drink if the weather is ok. Whether it's the taste i'm not sure, but as we've currently got our own Irnbru on tap I can certainly understand why it would be here.
Like us she is a touch lazy and prefers to use the patio door rather than the longer walk to the other door where her catflap is. To be fair the catflap is a bit awkward as it's cut through a single block wall so a bit of a thin tunnel to crawl through and also like us, is not as lithe as she used to be with a bit of a belly on her.
So she'll sit by the patio door knowing someone will open it for her, then she has to make her mind up if the weather suits her or not.
I went over and opened the door the other week as Storm Barra was getting going and just as a huge icy blast of Force 10 blew across the yard, it flattened her ears and fur to her head cartoon style and threatened to blow her over completely, I couldn't help but laugh at the sight as she turned and scurried off back into the house. 'You think i'm going out in that? You must be joking!'
Irn bru it is then.

Due to the generally mild weather and lack of snow no interesting visitors to the bird table recently at all, just the usual Robin, Tits and blackbird. The Robin has already explored the garage, I left the Polytunnel door open and it went in there too for a look around.

This ugly brute was here for one reason and one reason only:



Oh yeah baby, come to daddy.

As you can see he's got a harness on and underneath is a dye applicator so you can see where he's been, we'll be having lambs come the end of Winter.

I was sat with my morning coffee the other day when I heard some terrible squealing noises, I turned to look up the banking to see a Stoat locked onto a rabbit. Stoats are not clean killers, they're butchers. It's about 1/4 of the size of a rabbit, but vicious little stz and a rabbit has zero fight in it.
They both rolled all the way down to the bottom and split apart so I went out Council style in my dressing gown to take a look and possibly help out. The Stoat poked it's head up out of the undergrowth all cute like, clocked me, then dipped down and hid. The rabbit just froze and eyeballed me with one big eye. 'Well go on then!' I'm thinking, but it wouldn't. I went off to get a stick to poke it as I wasn't going to put my hand anywhere near that stressful situation, when I turned back the rabbit was lolloping off back up the hill in a daze, it went back in its hole so I went back for some Muesli.

As I was coming back up from trying to free Terry (but only succeeding in digging it deeper in) our Shepardess was on her way down to check on the sheep. It's rare i've stood and watched this kind of scene, but as it was there in front of me I stood and enjoyed it.



The skill is amazing and the sheep were in position in no time. They were in one group, but then fed themselves through a hole in the wall to another group one by one as she counted them off to check they were all there. She then practically barked at the dog to GET DOWN! a couple of times and it did whilst she sorted out some hay for them to feed on.
The Collie is however cleverer than that. As she has her back turned to sort out the food the dog is keeping the sheep in a group on its own, it doesn't need instruction, it instinctively knows what to do. The sheep threaten to break free and move one way and it's off on it's own getting them to stop. So they go the other way and it's gently round again so they pause and think. This dog is one step beyond the norm, it's got intelligence on par with a human, probably more than some and it's a joy to watch.

Kestrels in flight
If you have even a slight interest in birds you'll likely have seen a Kestrel hovering at one time or another, they're very easy to spot as they fan their wings back and forth often hunting by the side of roads and motorways.
It's very rare they do that here, they just hold their wings at a certain angle against the wind to remain stationary. The harder it blows the tighter in towards the body they pull them, often as far in as 'Dive mode', yet remaining static.
Then as I watched it did dive, straight down into the rushes and it didn't come up for a few seconds. When it did I couldn't see it carrying anything, yet it came and sat not 10 metres away from me. I stood still, transfixed waiting. In the end it wasn't bothered about me and tucked into it's lunch while I arsed around trying to get some pics with a mobile phone.





I've caught quite a few mice, a soap eating pair in the house and a few in the barn. I was reminded it might be better if we could trap them humanely, K said yes and produced a trap out of a box. Like the traditional sprung type It was a failure at first until I modified the mechanism. Then it worked:



I took 3 up to a copse of trees and set them free, how good are their homing instincts?

That was however it's last catch. Something has managed to find out how to get in and out and I don't know how. I've set the camera up to film it, but it doesn't set that off either!

I came by someone giving away a fully grown barn owl and did consider it. For two reasons really, the first is no-one had taken it and I was worried as to who would. The other was of course we have the right environment for it here. I was hoping it could live here and just lean on us when it needed to as these kinds of relationships are possible.
However I found out it's what is called an 'imprint'. This means it's been reared by humans right from the egg. It basically acts like a human, depends on one and probably even thinks it is one. So it needs feeding expensive food and looking after like a budgie.
I think it's a bit sad someone has done this to a bird like that. Also i'm sorry I couldn't take it on, but it would have needed more than I can offer at the moment and I just hope it's gone to a good home.

mikeiow

5,378 posts

131 months

Sunday 16th January 2022
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Wildlife abounds! Good tales!
We tried a humane trap for a few nights in a flat some years ago….eventually I put the option of a little nipper next to it, & the mouse chose that….well, I tried!!


buchanan84

19 posts

152 months

Monday 17th January 2022
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My dad had working sheepdogs and also did sheepdog trials. Always said competition dogs were completely different to working/ hill dogs as the working dog had to think for itself as it could often be working out of sight (easily half a mile away) whereas a competition dog you'd want it to do exactly as it was told (tho with natural reactions to the sheep)

Can also remember we had 2 pups (ankle height) in the garden, we were in the living room and could see in the field in front that something was rounding about a dozen sheep up... the 2 puppies had escaped the garden and were doing what came naturally to them, no need for teacher

Evoluzione

Original Poster:

10,345 posts

244 months

Tuesday 18th January 2022
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You might not ever get rich, but let me tell you it's better than diggin' a ditch.

Well actually no, i'd rather be digging a ditch in this, in Winter than washing a car.

As you may have noticed in the mini digger thread I recently bought this:



Since we've been here i've pondered, asked and researched what machine to buy and finally decided on a tracked 360' excavator.
I'd seen a couple of guys selling them on locally for a few months so bought this from them when it came up. There are a great many advantages to buying local, one of which (when you're new to the area) is that you can find out the best places to go for stuff. I now know where to get lubes, hoses & fittings, cherry etc. I'd lost all my useful local contacts which i'd made over the years when we came here.

Our closest neighbour has done a huge rebuild of his house and land, he said get a tracked 3 tonner when I suggested a small mini digger. One week into ownership and I have no regrets over the size, nor the type of machine, it has proven it's worth and has a string of jobs lined up for it for years to come.
The tracks mean it doesn't get stuck, the weight of it (3T) means it can pull quite large pieces of stone out of the ground. It's pointless having X amount of power if your machine gets pulled into the hole, rather than pulling whatever it is out of the hole.
I haggled £500 off the screen price and given I wasn't far away they delivered for free.
After they'd offloaded I explained where to turn around with a trailer in the yard. He said he'd rather pull into the entrance to the paddock. I'd previously been stuck there myself, more than once.
"You'll get stuck there, it's too soft"
"It's ok I've got 4wd"
'Whatever' I thought as I glanced across at his toy on my way to the house for the keys to Terry.
3 minutes later Terry shook, spluttered and wheezed into life as we dragged his not so serious 4wd and his trailer out of the mud wink
You need locking diffs to be serious, without them you just go 2wd - one at the front and one at the rear.

I found out the ground was very stony last year, but wasn't expecting some of the whoppers I found recently.






They all take a lot of digging around to loosen them before it will lift them. Some broke off the side of this as I was clumsily digging it out, then as I got it to the surface it split in half revealing this:



What lovely markings. I'm no expert, but I think it's sedimentary rock which is why it splits like it does, it looks almost like a tree cut through. You can see why our water is iron rich and brown after it's permeated through that.
Then this appeared:



This is quite handy as we need lots of stone for various projects, but I think these big pieces needs propping up somewhere, some with lettering carved in them, it's a shame to break them up for walling.

You may recall our drinking water is from a borehole, it's unfiltered, brown and has plenty of iron & manganese content. I've been doing some research into that on and off for the last few months. A water filter supplier won't sell you filters until they know exactly what is in your water, this means testing for:

Microbiological contamination – E-coli etc.

Other stuff - metals, minerals, elements etc:

Iron,
Manganese,
Turbidity,
Calcium,
Magnesium,
pH,
Nitrates,
Nitrites,
Sulphates,
Sodium,
Ammonia,
Lead,
Copper,
Chloride,
Aluminium

Council tests used to be free, but like everything else these days it's gone up in price by a huge amount. It's still a little cheaper than anywhere else though so the council lady came round and took umpteen samples. The results should be with us sometime this week I think and we have (legally) 3 months to sort it out. These results go to the filter suppliers and we get the filters to suit us.



Edited by Evoluzione on Saturday 22 January 11:03

dlks151

345 posts

49 months

Tuesday 18th January 2022
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Great choice there Evo, excavators have gone the same way as cars with all the eco friendly measures added and they are becoming a PITA, but the old 803 is a good solid machine very straight forward with good access, but like all of them keep on top of the greasing regime otherwise it'll end up a 3t rattle and you'll be replacing bushes in no time at all (don't forget greasing the track adjust to keep the tension) and don't be too ambitious when digging on the slopes !

deadtom

2,557 posts

166 months

Tuesday 18th January 2022
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My envy grows with each passing update; if I could afford a bit of land to call my own somewhere picturesque and a digger to trundle about in, then I don't think I'd need much else to keep me happy laugh

jason61c

5,978 posts

175 months

Tuesday 18th January 2022
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Interesting thoughts on lime, I've an old place(oldest part is circa 1600's).

I tend to use a lime putty on internal stuff and for rendering/plastering. I've used NHL's on areas where there's 'bricks' involved.

https://www.mikewye.co.uk is where I've ended up getting most my material from. I have cheated where lath could/should be used and used the cement fibre boards, they're nicely breathable and passive, take a lime skim really well, ends up costing less.

I liken looking after old buildings to planting trees.

Evoluzione

Original Poster:

10,345 posts

244 months

Tuesday 18th January 2022
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The results of the water tests were waiting for me when I got in tonight. No great surprises really, everything passed just fine apart from:
Turbidity (clarity) at 47 is 12 times what is recommended.
Manganese is 1014 (min is 50)
And Iron is 22 times over the limit.

Whilst I'm better keeping away from any strong magnets it isn't harmful unless you're pregnant or (IIRC) an OAP.

So now we can spec a filtration system.
You can understand people living like this back in the day, but in recent years it does make you wonder.

talksthetorque

10,815 posts

136 months

Tuesday 18th January 2022
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Evoluzione said:
Some big pebbles to shift there!

Not sure if you already know this one, but a trick a buider told me with these for working sideways on a slope is to drive directly up the slope at an angle, use the snowplough at the lower end pushed down to lift that end of the chassis until level, and then work off the side.