Ask an Electrician anything...

[ruggedscotty]

Lonoxe said:

I'm preparing my 3 phase connection before UKPN comes along. I've been quoted either a Wylex REC4 isolator or Crabtree Fusestar switch fuse. There's quite a big difference in price. For the expert, is it worth going with the Crabtree Fusestar switch fuse and paying £450 more or is the value not as much? Thanks

https://www.electricalsonline.co.uk/product-page/wylex-rec4?gclid=CjwKCAjwuqiiBhBtEiwATgvixHtwEbkbwlN21upP64vzyBT8qbX3FDB4L9XpUYSq28fWxC8_ER3SKRoCp4QQAvD_BwE

https://www.falconelectrical.co.uk/crabtree-190633...

guess its all down to quality - one seems to be a small plastic affair. the other a large metal box with switch.
If it were me id lean to the metal box. but the plastic switch no real issue with using that.

[Lonoxe]

ruggedscotty said:

https://www.electricalsonline.co.uk/product-page/w...

https://www.falconelectrical.co.uk/crabtree-190633...

guess its all down to quality - one seems to be a small plastic affair. the other a large metal box with switch.
If it were me id lean to the metal box. but the plastic switch no real issue with using that.

Thanks Scotty. Yes, that was what I saw as the difference. I then wondered whether the fused switch in metal box provided a lot more protection to the whole set up by using 80amps that could be triggered earlier than the mains 100Amps. Thanks

[dhutch]

ruggedscotty said:

https://www.electricalsonline.co.uk/product-page/w...

https://www.falconelectrical.co.uk/crabtree-190633...

guess its all down to quality - one seems to be a small plastic affair. the other a large metal box with switch.
If it were me id lean to the metal box. but the plastic switch no real issue with using that.

Your links also show that the Fusestar is £200 Inc vat, so some mark up if being charged an additional £450 for that over the Crabtree!

Not that I can add anything to the question of if, practically, it will actually be much different and or 'worth it' overall.

There are also a 100A Fusestar 'new' on eBay for £20 but that's yet another game!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125552975579?

[ruggedscotty]

Lonoxe said:

ruggedscotty said:

https://www.electricalsonline.co.uk/product-page/w...

https://www.falconelectrical.co.uk/crabtree-190633...

guess its all down to quality - one seems to be a small plastic affair. the other a large metal box with switch.
If it were me id lean to the metal box. but the plastic switch no real issue with using that.

Thanks Scotty. Yes, that was what I saw as the difference. I then wondered whether the fused switch in metal box provided a lot more protection to the whole set up by using 80amps that could be triggered earlier than the mains 100Amps. Thanks

be careful - ones i posted are isolators - not fuses or circuit breakers.Your protection is going to be the board fuse here. If your using fuse switches and rating them at 80A against your main fuse at 100A under overload the 80A fuses will go first.

[Lonoxe]

Thanks Dhutch. Whilst I’d personally not buy off eBay for this, who’s to say my provider wouldn’t be sourcing from there! Food for thought

Scotty, that’s exactly the plan for the fused switch to go first and sort it out rather than letting any overload do more damage. Thank you

[Lonoxe]

By the way, it is this that’s quoted for

https://www.falconelectrical.co.uk/crabtree-191003...

[silentbrown]

Lonoxe said:

By the way, it is this that’s quoted for

https://www.falconelectrical.co.uk/crabtree-191003...

It's probably more down to where/how you're mounting it. The Wylex unit will have all cables visible and is probably intended to go into a meter cupboard or similar 'secure' location, while the Crabtree one allows all wiring to be hidden and inaccessible.

[ruggedscotty]

silentbrown said:

Lonoxe said:

By the way, it is this that’s quoted for

https://www.falconelectrical.co.uk/crabtree-191003...

It's probably more down to where/how you're mounting it. The Wylex unit will have all cables visible and is probably intended to go into a meter cupboard or similar 'secure' location, while the Crabtree one allows all wiring to be hidden and inaccessible.

wylex is intended as a post utility meter isolator, lots have them fitted now in the meter box, to allow you to kill the power to your consumer unit. the larger one is probably designed to be mounted to a larger electrical installation. say a busbar assembly to feed in and then split power out to your various loads and distributuion boards.

[Teddy Lop]

Lonoxe said:

Thanks Dhutch. Whilst I’d personally not buy off eBay for this, who’s to say my provider wouldn’t be sourcing from there! Food for thought

Scotty, that’s exactly the plan for the fused switch to go first and sort it out rather than letting any overload do more damage. Thank you

While there's a lot of snide stuff on eBay and it's right to be cautious I'd be surprised if anyone's gone to the effort of making industrial switchgear. It's pretty low demand on something as domestically focussed which is why it'll be cheap.

[baileywin]

Should an external circuit be on it's own socket?

Garage has an old rewireable fuse board, protected by a standalone RCD in the garage.

Currently has 2x 2.5mm radials for a pair of sockets.

I'm half way through adding more sockets and converting the radial to a ring.

I've just realised that an outside socket would be helpful, specifically thinking as a granny charger for visitors EVs etc.

I was going to spur off one of the new sockets, but wondering if it's more sensible to run it back to the board? Or maybe even in 4mm? Too late to put it on the ring now.

It'd be on the same way as the sockets but maybe in the future I'll swap to a new board and then could put it on it's own way.

But then is a new board just a waste of £40 when it works fine...

Probably overthinking it.

Detached garage is on a 63A supply with a 40A RCB, unsure of SWA supply size, TT earth.

[ruggedscotty]

baileywin said:

Should an external circuit be on it's own socket?

Garage has an old rewireable fuse board, protected by a standalone RCD in the garage.

Currently has 2x 2.5mm radials for a pair of sockets.

I'm half way through adding more sockets and converting the radial to a ring.

I've just realised that an outside socket would be helpful, specifically thinking as a granny charger for visitors EVs etc.

I was going to spur off one of the new sockets, but wondering if it's more sensible to run it back to the board? Or maybe even in 4mm? Too late to put it on the ring now.

It'd be on the same way as the sockets but maybe in the future I'll swap to a new board and then could put it on it's own way.

But then is a new board just a waste of £40 when it works fine...

Probably overthinking it.

Detached garage is on a 63A supply with a 40A RCB, unsure of SWA supply size, TT earth.

Be careful - 63A supply with a 40A RCB - that 40A RCB is rated for 40A taking more through isnt a good idea - need to ensure that your supply protection is rated for the load and that all cable and accessories is properly rated for the supply. Putting in a car charger on a seperate circuit to the 2nd board... chance that if you have adapted your sockets to a ringmain... thats a 32A circuit. what are you putting in for the granny charger and other circuits ? ove the 40A RCD ?

[TVR Sagaris]

I have a shower pump (under the bath) which is currently plugged into one of the counter-level sockets in the kitchen, via an extension lead. (This must've just been the closest power source so whoever did it has just drilled a hole in wall between bathroom and kitchen for cable.) I can't work out what the regs are for this but even if it's legal I'm keen to change this.

Problem is there's no easy power source. Consumer unit is in the hall on a wall shared with bathroom (opposite to the wall the bath is on). No sockets on that wall, just light switch and blanking plate. Other side of hall does have one socket.

There is also an airing cupboard next to bathroom with black cabling running up and down, no idea what this is (any ideas?).

What would be the best way to properly wire the pump in? Ideally I would like it not to be in the kitchen. There are only counter level sockets there (i.e. appliances on these as well).

Cheers

[Gary C]

Electrics in a wet zone are quite specific

Can't remember all the rules and if enclosed items are exempt but normally you at lease need an isolator outside the wet zone, normally this is just above the door so it can be isolated by someone outside before entering.

[this is my username]

When did the regs change to require downlighters with habitable rooms above to be fire rated?

Many moons ago I recall that they only had to be fire rated if it was a separate household in the room above (eg an upstairs flat) - if it was all one household they didn't have to be fire rated.

As I understand it now they all have to be fire rated if there is a habitable room above.

Does anyone know when the regs changed? I have some non fire-rated downlighters in my house and would like to know whether they were non-compliant when fitted or if the regs have changed since they were installed.

Thanks!

[ruggedscotty]

this is my username said:

When did the regs change to require downlighters with habitable rooms above to be fire rated?

Many moons ago I recall that they only had to be fire rated if it was a separate household in the room above (eg an upstairs flat) - if it was all one household they didn't have to be fire rated.

As I understand it now they all have to be fire rated if there is a habitable room above.

Does anyone know when the regs changed? I have some non fire-rated downlighters in my house and would like to know whether they were non-compliant when fitted or if the regs have changed since they were installed.

Thanks!

When did fire rated downlights become law?
This regulation has been a legal requirement since 1987

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-sa...

https://lightmaster-direct.co.uk/fire-rated-down-l...

https://orangelighting.co.uk/do-downlights-need-to...

https://professional-electrician.com/technical/sho...

[Sheepshanks]

this is my username said:

As I understand it now they all have to be fire rated if there is a habitable room above.

That’s not correct. But most electricians insist that it is.

[ruggedscotty]

TVR Sagaris said:

I have a shower pump (under the bath) which is currently plugged into one of the counter-level sockets in the kitchen, via an extension lead. (This must've just been the closest power source so whoever did it has just drilled a hole in wall between bathroom and kitchen for cable.) I can't work out what the regs are for this but even if it's legal I'm keen to change this.

Problem is there's no easy power source. Consumer unit is in the hall on a wall shared with bathroom (opposite to the wall the bath is on). No sockets on that wall, just light switch and blanking plate. Other side of hall does have one socket.

There is also an airing cupboard next to bathroom with black cabling running up and down, no idea what this is (any ideas?).

What would be the best way to properly wire the pump in? Ideally I would like it not to be in the kitchen. There are only counter level sockets there (i.e. appliances on these as well).

Cheers

Need to understand the layout - and also the wiring requirements.

IET Guidance Note 7: Special Locations 18th Edition

if the pump is installed with the appropriate IP rating for the location and it is in a sealed enclosure within the bathroom - requires the use of a tool or key to access then it may be permitted.

[TVR Sagaris]

ruggedscotty said:

Need to understand the layout - and also the wiring requirements.

IET Guidance Note 7: Special Locations 18th Edition

if the pump is installed with the appropriate IP rating for the location and it is in a sealed enclosure within the bathroom - requires the use of a tool or key to access then it may be permitted.

Thanks. Here's an indication on floor plan of current set up:



The pump sits under the top end of the bath (so requires removal of bath panels to access), cable runs out of bath, round the corner of the bathroom then through the wall into the kitchen. It's in the kitchen that it's then plugged into an extension lead, I guess that's the only way to reach the sockets at counter level.

In the kitchen there's an old fused switch for an electric oven and three connected sockets.

On the wall with the consumer unit there's just a light switch and blanking plate, no sockets. There is a socket on the opposite wall.

The cupboard at the end of the entrance hall is the airing cupboard with black cabling which seemingly goes into the floor and then up to where I can't see. It's all brick and concrete construction so not easy to chase new cabling in the floors/walls/ceilings.

At the moment it takes up one of the (limited) sockets n the kitchen and is a very messy set up so I don't want to keep it like that. Ideally I'd like it on its own switch/socket but that appears tricky given the above.

[Bert Cheese]

Here's a recent one under debate regarding a friend's summerhouse...approx 20 metres from the house if that makes a difference.
Summerhouse is fed from the main residence board with a run of SWA and has its own RCD protected circuit board for power & lights etc, an earth spike is present here and the earth lead in the house was left unconnected by the original electrician as he said the spike was sufficent for the summerhouse and would keep any problems from affecting the main house.

A couple of weeks ago they had their kitchen refitted involving a new circuit board being fitted, and were told by a different electrician the earth lead needs to be connected there from the summerhouse?
All has been fine so far, but the concern is that if the summerhouse trips for any reason in future the whole house would be blacked out with the indoor earth connected...any pointers appreciated thanks.

[ruggedscotty]

Bert Cheese said:

Here's a recent one under debate regarding a friend's summerhouse...approx 20 metres from the house if that makes a difference.
Summerhouse is fed from the main residence board with a run of SWA and has its own RCD protected circuit board for power & lights etc, an earth spike is present here and the earth lead in the house was left unconnected by the original electrician as he said the spike was sufficent for the summerhouse and would keep any problems from affecting the main house.

A couple of weeks ago they had their kitchen refitted involving a new circuit board being fitted, and were told by a different electrician the earth lead needs to be connected there from the summerhouse?
All has been fine so far, but the concern is that if the summerhouse trips for any reason in future the whole house would be blacked out with the indoor earth connected...any pointers appreciated thanks.

This is one that causes some issues - you need to know of the nature of the supply - If it is a TN-S supply then the electrician is right, no spike required. and the earth should be through to the outhouse. However if the house supply is TN-C-S then you need to have the outhouse earth free and a spike installed. Either one should be protected by a 30mA RCD. It may be protected by an RCBO at 30mA, however with outsides I always use a double pole RCD. I prefer to have both the live and neutral to be broken if the breaker trips.

The big issue is with a TN-C-S is that should the neutral into the house be broken then there is a good chance that the neutral will float upto the mains voltage. And as the earth and neutral is linked at the cable head the -C-S part combined and seperated at end user. the earth here will rise to same potential as the neutral. or 240v. which would mean 240v between any metal work in the summerhouse and the real muddy earth.

Id get your supply checked. to confirm that earth electrode in the house as that makes a difference.

the 18th edition wiring requirements, 2nd ammendment has said that you can provide an addittional provision at your main earth terminal by way of an earth rod. If this was o then you could connect the earth wire through to the outshouse.

411.4.2 It is recommended that an additional connection to Earth, by means of an earth electrode in accordance with Chapter 54, is made to the main earthing terminal. This recommendation does not apply to outbuildings of dwellings served by the installation.

Comment: In amendment 1 there was a note that referenced that an additional earthing connection could be made to the protective earth or PEN conductor. This has now been expanded upon and introduced as a recommendation. Essentially, with metal pipework and lead covered cables being replaced by plastic equivalents, the risks associated with PME supplies are increasing and customers are having to provide additional reinforcement to the DNO network by installing an additional electrode to the MET.

So by waht you have said - earth electrode in yopur house one at the summer house. If this is so then I would connect the earth between the summer house and the main dwelling.