Should older people give up their family homes?
Discussion
Evoluzione said:
A lot of older people would be happy with a two bedroomed bungalow, bit of garden and a garage. We aren't building many of those....
Absolutely.And we're not building them because it's more profitable to build a 4-bed house on the same plot.
That's another issue that's fundamentally down to the government: if land supply for new homes was better (so that land value represented a smaller proportion of the overall development cost), bungalows would be more viable.
Move out of my lovely big detached house for some youff.
Get stuffed.
When I bought my first house I was in debt up to my eyeballs. No car, no carpets, no tech, hand me down furniture, no holidays, no sky etc for 4 years. When we upgraded, much the same cycle. And again on the next upgrade.
I've worked hard and gone without and taken some risks to be where I am. I'm enjoying it now.
The only problem as I see it is the multiples of lending versus income is too low. My daughter brought her first place recently and her mortgage is only 60% of what she was paying in rent just because she wasn't allowed to borrow more. Yes it's there to protect the stupid but no risk no reward. I remember 15% interest rates. It was scary and could of ended up living under an arch at some point but fortune favours the brave.
If kids wanna play they've got to stick their neck on the line, be prepared to go without and not think it's some right to own a nice house.
Get stuffed.
When I bought my first house I was in debt up to my eyeballs. No car, no carpets, no tech, hand me down furniture, no holidays, no sky etc for 4 years. When we upgraded, much the same cycle. And again on the next upgrade.
I've worked hard and gone without and taken some risks to be where I am. I'm enjoying it now.
The only problem as I see it is the multiples of lending versus income is too low. My daughter brought her first place recently and her mortgage is only 60% of what she was paying in rent just because she wasn't allowed to borrow more. Yes it's there to protect the stupid but no risk no reward. I remember 15% interest rates. It was scary and could of ended up living under an arch at some point but fortune favours the brave.
If kids wanna play they've got to stick their neck on the line, be prepared to go without and not think it's some right to own a nice house.
Equus said:
Absolutely.And we're not building them because it's more profitable to build a 4-bed house on the same plot.
That's another issue that's fundamentally down to the government: if land supply for new homes was better (so that land value represented a smaller proportion of the overall development cost), bungalows would be more viable.
I do chuckle at this... I am now just turned 70 - I wonder what OP considers old??
When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
My wife & I are 75 & we last moved house 3+1/2 years ago. We wanted a house with a decent sized lounge & seperate dining room so we could have friends around. A utility room so washing machine & tumble dryer not in kitchen. A study/office. Kitchen big enough to eat in when just the 2 of us. A decent sized main bedroom with en-suite & 2 good sized guest bedrooms. Within walking distance of shops, library, chemist, etc. To obtain all these in Gloucestershire we bought a 4-bed house for £510k.
This was our 6th house (included one that was rented for 22 months during our last protracted house move) since our first house in our mid-20s. We don't intend to move again unless ill-health forces us to do so.
We assisted our younger daughter to buy her first house.
We are in the position to be able to afford the above house & assist our daughter due to 2 inheritances in our late 60s - my mother & my wife's father; both shared with siblings.
I agree that house prices are too high - our house is now valued at close to £600k. I have every sympathy with young people trying to buy their first house or start a family.
Every government attempt to assist first time buyers seems to ill-conceived & results in further inflateing house prices with often the house builders reaping the benefits.
This was our 6th house (included one that was rented for 22 months during our last protracted house move) since our first house in our mid-20s. We don't intend to move again unless ill-health forces us to do so.
We assisted our younger daughter to buy her first house.
We are in the position to be able to afford the above house & assist our daughter due to 2 inheritances in our late 60s - my mother & my wife's father; both shared with siblings.
I agree that house prices are too high - our house is now valued at close to £600k. I have every sympathy with young people trying to buy their first house or start a family.
Every government attempt to assist first time buyers seems to ill-conceived & results in further inflateing house prices with often the house builders reaping the benefits.
blueg33 said:
Largechris said:
When I'm PM, I would halt all starter home building. Pointless building homes that are known to be sub standard, too small, I would only allow decent size family homes with gardens and garages to be built, and maybe a few city centre flats from converting empty shops.
Secondly I would introduce a land tax, such that everyone pays for the land they have (reduce other taxes so there is no net tax increase obviously). Around me, it is ridiculous the size of houses and gardens owned by the elderly that are barely used, a lot of them don't even go upstairs, they certainly don't have grand kids around playing in the gardens every week end.
Don't think you have thought this throughSecondly I would introduce a land tax, such that everyone pays for the land they have (reduce other taxes so there is no net tax increase obviously). Around me, it is ridiculous the size of houses and gardens owned by the elderly that are barely used, a lot of them don't even go upstairs, they certainly don't have grand kids around playing in the gardens every week end.
Sub-standard? What is your standard?
Too small? What is your bench mark? NSS?
How do people pay for the larger homes that cost more to build? Take out land value, and it costs more to build a large home than a small one. You need more land to build large ones, and there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with a smaller house, there are lots of one person households in the UK
There is already a tax based on the value of the house which in many ways is a land tax, its called SDSLT when you buy it and Council Tax when you live in it
How do people pay for the larger homes that cost more to build?
It's clear that many or most people in starter homes are looking to trade up as soon as possible. They are not happy where they are. Have a drive around semi rural Holland, there is no such thing as a starter home, only decent size houses are available HENCE the average price / size goes DOWN (because smaller isn't available).
The cost of land is driven by current planning rules and policies, not the intrinsic value of the land itself, otherwise farmland wouldn't cost £15,000 per acre. That's a whole ACRE. Change planning policies and watch decent new homes become affordable.
Council tax is of course NOT a real land tax, nobody's valuation makes any sense and particularly not when development has occurred.
To all the folks above who have moved house 6 times etc - you simply cannot do that these days without getting killed on stamp as the values of houses is so high...
"By the year 2000 there had been a series of increases, there were four rates instead of two, and the highest became a record (for its time) four per cent. "
I think that tells us a lot about how things have NOT kept pace.
"By the year 2000 there had been a series of increases, there were four rates instead of two, and the highest became a record (for its time) four per cent. "
I think that tells us a lot about how things have NOT kept pace.
BlackWidow13 said:
Equus said:
Absolutely.And we're not building them because it's more profitable to build a 4-bed house on the same plot.
That's another issue that's fundamentally down to the government: if land supply for new homes was better (so that land value represented a smaller proportion of the overall development cost), bungalows would be more viable.
Demand is the main driver for a developer. They dont want cash tied up in WIP because they have built something that won't sell, or that takes ages to sell.
If one of my Land Directors comes to me with a site, my first question isn't "What is the profit" or "what is the land value". Its "What is the market, where is the demand? what housetypes meet that demand?"
Broadly therefore, they build what people want.
Edited by blueg33 on Friday 5th November 11:33
BlackWidow13 said:
Surely if land supply was increased we would have an even greater supply of new builds with four small bedrooms. Give a developer a piece of land and they will almost always build the most lucrative thing they can.
Yes, of course they do: but bungalows are both cheaper to build and quicker to build (thus offering opportunities for more rapid turnover of your investment capital), and there is certainly demand for them, so they sell at premium in terms of cost per ft2, so if you reduce the land cost element they become not merely viable but attractive.We built millions of them through the 50's 60's and 70's for that reason... but we didn't have anything like the same degree of Government interference via the Planning system back then.
When my grandmother passed away recently in her 90s she was living in a 4 level 10 bedroom house by herself, and her last kid moved out in the early 80s
She bought it in her early 20s (for less than £1000) and had absolutely no intention of dying anywhere else, the same as my grandad did.
You would never have been able to tempt them to live anywhere else - not in a million years
She bought it in her early 20s (for less than £1000) and had absolutely no intention of dying anywhere else, the same as my grandad did.
You would never have been able to tempt them to live anywhere else - not in a million years
Type R Tom said:
BlackWidow13 said:
Type R Tom said:
So what happens to first time buyers? f
k em? My point is I'm sitting on a starter home when by now I should have moved on. How do you solve without moving 100s of miles away which isn't really viable with work.
You sound a bit entitled TBH. k em? My point is I'm sitting on a starter home when by now I should have moved on. How do you solve without moving 100s of miles away which isn't really viable with work. Got to look at the boot on the other foot. What if once you've worked hard, paid for your gaff and got to be living where you want to live, having forgone the extra holidays, meals out, worked the overtime etc, some council t
t came on and said "sorry, Type R Tom. You're older now and the kid finally moved out and gave you some peace. You don't need your nice place where you want to live anymore, you need to move because Type S Steve isn't happy with his lot". 
gfreeman said:
I do chuckle at this... I am now just turned 70 - I wonder what OP considers old??
When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
Post like this make me laugh too, who would have thought that the four Yorkshire men sketch would still be relevant today. When I first moved out of my parents house in 1973 I saved every penny I had, took on two part time jobs as well as my main employment and saved for nearly 3 years living like a hermit until my girlfriend and I had enough for a deposit on a new starter home 65 miles away from work.
The mortgage was more than my salary. We had no furniture, no carpets, no curtains, no washing machine, no fridge, no television, a rusty heap of a car and without my girlfriend working we would have starved.
We went to auctions, junk shops and scoured the local paper for bargain carpets etc. Everything was second hand or built myself.
As a birthday gift we gave our neighbour two carpet samples to stick to his feet so it would feel like fitted carpet - we could hear him clomping about in his place through the walls - in the same position as us... as were a lot of my friends doing the same or very similar.
I was lucky working in construction as I could claim my travel expenses (thank god) but still had to travel for 3 hours a day there and back.
Fast forward years and years of bloody hard work and we now live in a million+ house (via numerous doer uppers) and have a couple of Porsches in the four bay garage.
No whinging millenial is going to take my gaff - give up your BMW/Type R/mobile phone/HDTV/alcohol/ for a few years. work your arse off then come back and have a moan...
I bet your parents probably thought you had it too easy too and I would be willing to bet if you were starting off in constriction today, you would be highly unlikely to end up where you are now in 40 years, regardless of effort.
Equus said:
Yes, of course they do: but bungalows are both cheaper to build and quicker to build (thus offering opportunities for more rapid turnover of your investment capital), and there is certainly demand for them, so they sell at premium in terms of cost per ft2, so if you reduce the land cost element they become not merely viable but attractive.
We built millions of them through the 50's 60's and 70's for that reason... but we didn't have anything like the same degree of Government interference via the Planning system back then.
Ok - that and blueg33’s posts make perfect sense to me - thank you both. We built millions of them through the 50's 60's and 70's for that reason... but we didn't have anything like the same degree of Government interference via the Planning system back then.
I would have thought though, from a purely uninformed point of view, that there won’t be that many places where a developer’s best option is to build nothing but bungalows, simply because that speaks to a large pent up demand - ie a lot of pensioners who want to move.
Anecdotally, my widowed mother has been going on about wanting a bungalow for the last 30+ years. But, oddly, she’s never actually seen one she likes. It’s a sort of idealised paradigm. And when I point out to her the costs of moving, you can hear the clasps of her purse snap shut for miles around!
My grandmother is in the category being moaned about.
She’s now alone in a 4 bed 400k house. She was recently offered the 2 bed bungalow opposite her for 300k and was going to accept, however the property the bungalow owner was purchasing fell through.
It’ll be available again once they find somewhere else to buy but I’ve advised her not to take it. 100k in her pocket to fund Stamp duty, solicitors & EA fees, redecoration etc to be left with an amount she doesn’t want or need. Plus the hassle of changing addresses for utilities etc, what’s the point? She may as well live out her days in the place she loves or move to a retirement home if/when it’s needed.
She’s now alone in a 4 bed 400k house. She was recently offered the 2 bed bungalow opposite her for 300k and was going to accept, however the property the bungalow owner was purchasing fell through.
It’ll be available again once they find somewhere else to buy but I’ve advised her not to take it. 100k in her pocket to fund Stamp duty, solicitors & EA fees, redecoration etc to be left with an amount she doesn’t want or need. Plus the hassle of changing addresses for utilities etc, what’s the point? She may as well live out her days in the place she loves or move to a retirement home if/when it’s needed.
Equus said:
We built millions of them through the 50's 60's and 70's for that reason... but we didn't have anything like the same degree of Government interference via the Planning system back then.
The funny thing is though (where I lived) most of them got converted into two story houses!It's a tricky situation with no easy, one size fits all fix.
I'm currently trying to buy, also in SE, I'm lucky enough to have a decent budget, but the availability just isn't there to suit my requirements.
But that in itself is the issue, if you say that to the wrong person you get responses like, "You should be happy to have a roof over your head!" "You should be happy you can afford XYZ!"
Once you have a good family home, people don't want to give them up and equally why should they! When I finally find mine, I'll be holding on to it for as long as possible.
I'm currently trying to buy, also in SE, I'm lucky enough to have a decent budget, but the availability just isn't there to suit my requirements.
But that in itself is the issue, if you say that to the wrong person you get responses like, "You should be happy to have a roof over your head!" "You should be happy you can afford XYZ!"
Once you have a good family home, people don't want to give them up and equally why should they! When I finally find mine, I'll be holding on to it for as long as possible.
Why concrete over this generally, beautiful country.
Sensible reduction in the population is the only way. Plenty of houses available, reduce the obscene profits from new builds, keep the countryside as it should be for everyone to enjoy and not strive to continuously build rubbish estates that blot the landscape.
Is there anyone in a quiet small town or village that welcomes the new multi hundred/thousand house development tacked on. Of course not.
Aren't we the most overcrowded piece of land in Europe?
There isn't an easy answer as building is big business and radical thinking is unpopular.
More importantly, I'm not giving up my large house, several garages and many cars that I have practically slaved away for just as I am older.
Sensible reduction in the population is the only way. Plenty of houses available, reduce the obscene profits from new builds, keep the countryside as it should be for everyone to enjoy and not strive to continuously build rubbish estates that blot the landscape.
Is there anyone in a quiet small town or village that welcomes the new multi hundred/thousand house development tacked on. Of course not.
Aren't we the most overcrowded piece of land in Europe?
There isn't an easy answer as building is big business and radical thinking is unpopular.
More importantly, I'm not giving up my large house, several garages and many cars that I have practically slaved away for just as I am older.
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