Kitchens - cheap vs expensive

[Cascade360]

RevHappy said:

iphonedyou said:

I've just broken the news to my wife that our new kitchen - ordered, part paid for - has a warming drawer, oven and combi oven stacked and not a warming drawer with two actual ovens.

We were pretty specific that we wanted two functional ovens but I vaguely recall something about space precluding stacking two full ovens. It's a Siemens CM585AMS0B which promises 'air grilling' for roasting birds etc.

It's not going to approximate the convenience of having two ovens, is it?

We had a 1.5 oven before this and it was pretty crap - the top deck was tiny and not much cop for anything other than cheese on toast.

You’ve been semi rodgered with that combi if you can call it that.
Ideally you should have been offered a proper combi and drop the warning drawer if budget was an issue. What warning drawer did they give you?

Spoke to a chap at an appliances supplier today and he suggested two single ovens on top of each other needs a bit of a gap and therefore can be a bit awkward as one will be very high and one will be too low. Does this sound right?

[Cascade360]

Tony Angelino said:

Whatever you're doing with your kitchens, I would get decided quickly and get the price tied up. There are some major supply issues coming down the track about to hit the trade.

16 to 24 week wait on some Neff ovens apparently...

[Cascade360]

RevHappy said:

Cascade360 said:

Tony Angelino said:

Whatever you're doing with your kitchens, I would get decided quickly and get the price tied up. There are some major supply issues coming down the track about to hit the trade.

16 to 24 week wait on some Neff ovens apparently...

Very model dependent, Neff is a U.K. brand so the international ones might be a better bet. Most mainstream appliances are 8-14wks. Extended lead times are being used to get early deposits, still a crazy concept of selecting appliances before final furniture.

The supplier I spoke to said I can order everything, 50% deposit now rest within 10 days of delivery, they'll hold it for me indefinitely (with warranty only starting on delivery) and I can change things in and out if we change our mind on exactly what we want. Fairly decent deal (as long as you pay on a credit card in case they go bust in the meantime...).

[Cascade360]

Ordered all my appliances this morning, all Neff, including two Neff single ovens. Figured it best to get things moving given the apparently long lead times. Now just to finalise the kitchen design, which is starting to look very much like the suggestions above, so thanks for those! Still undecided between saving a grand or so on painted MDF rather than solid wood, will probably end up going with the latter.

[Cascade360]

I am sure he meant doors. A DIYK kitchen with 20mm solid wood shaker doors was coming in significantly cheaper than a similar kitchen from Magnet with 19mm laminated MDF doors. Carcasses in both cases were 18mm chipboard.

[Cascade360]

We went to the DIY Kitchens showroom on Friday. We were heading up from London to Newcastle anyway, so took a day off and stopped in and used it as an excuse to have a night in York. It was worth doing, and confirmed that we wanted to go ahead with a DIY Kitchen - though we would have been disappointed had we gone all the way there just for that. We were there for about an hour, they didn't have a traditional kitchen in cashmere on display, and they didn't have their computers operating so you could adjust and tweak your design whilst there.

We are likely going to order by the end of this week to benefit from the current prices (though let's see if they go ahead with their price increase). We are going to go with Stanbury, the 19mm MDF kitchen - we preferred flush joints, and don't think it is worth the price uplift for the flushed joint solid wood doors (the Norton). Mid range quartz worktop. The kitchen (units and worktops) is looking to come in at about 11.5k - which is about half the price of Magnet!

Appliances all ordered from Appliances People, Neff single ovens look like they may take a LONG time to come, but guy said he would give us a loaner if we wanted to move more quickly which is great.

Thanks to the advice in here, I think our design is much better than what the Magnet designer had produced.

[Cascade360]

One further question: what lighting would you suggest?

Recessed downlighters down the centre of the galley, and undercabinet downlighters under the wall cabinets?

[Cascade360]

Best get my kitchen ordered this weekend then!

[Cascade360]

So, DIY Kitchens order placed today. Comes to £11,700 excl appliances which is a separate c. £6,000. Went with Stanbury in the end, which is smooth 19mm MDF doors with flush joints, and a Quartz worktop. So about 6.5k cheaper than Magnet for an equivalent quality kitchen but with a better design, considerably more units, much higher quality appliances, and a more expensive type of Quarts worktop. I think like for like it would have been about 10/12k cheaper than Magnet.

Let's hope fitting etc all goes to plan!

[Cascade360]

I am having similar issues related to appliances. Called up the supplier a couple of weeks ago, as the appliances were meant to be delivered this week (other than the Neff ovens, which I knew would be slow) and I wanted to check everything else was on track. Nope - Neff induction hob and extractor fan are delayed, and their best estimate is third week of July ...

They promised a loan electric hob (and oven) but this will obviously delay installation of the worktop and final decorations. Painful. The rest of the appliances were meant to be delivered this week but no sign off them or any correspondence on a delivery date.

The DIY Kitchen arrived last week and we are overall pleased with it. There are a few issues though:

- All six corner posts for the corner units, and both tall filler panels, have scratches and or marks on them. Fairly minor ones, but not acceptable.
- They have sent me a 400 wall unit rather than a 350. Thing is, they have delivered what the final order said but it doesn't align with the plan and obviously I didn't notice.
- The soft close hinges are the clip on type and are a bit naff.
- The double oven unit has a small drawer on the bottom and a big drawer on top which means the lower single oven will be extremely low. Not really what I thought it would be but that ones on me as well.-
- Cornicing won't fit given ceiling heights, which is obviously not really their fault but a bit frustrating. What's the views on going sans cornice? I think it will look a bit naff but not sure I have much alternatives.
- Fitter seems to think the quality is pretty decent compared to what he usually fits, though the fact it comes with drawers fitted and doors attached annoys him a bit as it makes it easier to cause damage and makes the units really heavy when fitting. Obviously they could come off if needed.

[Cascade360]

So have now comprehensively checked everything for damage and rather disappointed in the number of things with scuffs and marks. I don't know how particular I am being, but in my mind I shouldn't have visible scuffs and marks (noting on things like filler panels I checked both sides) on a brand new kitchen! Also, it is extremely difficult to take decent photos of scuffed and scratched dark panels. Sent them 35 images which are just various poor photos of green with marks on them ...

This is the list of damages:

- 6 x Heritage Green - Corner Post
- 2 x Heritage Green - Tall End Panel
- 1 x Heritage Green - Left-hand Hinged Base Door
- 1 x Heritage Green - Right-hand Hinged Base Door
- 1 x Heritage Green- Wall End Panel
- 3 x Heritage Green - Base Unit End Panel
- 1 x Mussel - Filler Panel
- 1 x Mussel Wall End Panel

Plus the fact the final order had a 400 Wall Unit rather than a 350 as in the final plan, and they seem to be saying that's my fault as the final order said 400. Which is fine, but easy one to miss and not sure how it got in there.

Asked them if they will agree to return the cornicing and send the new pelmets that we want as part of the delivery and return of the items above. Let's see what they say, and how fussy they get on damages.

Oh and appliances - no sight of them, no emails about them. Was told they would be here last week ...

Other battle we are having - floor layers were instructed to level kitchen and utility, as the latter was quite a bit lower. They used loads of latex self leveller, put a hump between the rooms, and aggresively feathered it down (so raised it by about 2mm at the outer walls and about 30mm between the rooms). I told them their quote was to level it, and they got pretty aggressive, and it ended up in them using some choice words and leaving, then sending me a bill for the dpm and half the quote to level, and presumably won't be coming back for the laying. Have another floor layer lined up, but not yet decided whether and if so what to pay the first crew ...

Last annoying thing - water softener won't fit in cabinets. My fault, had read 495mm as internal diameter under belfast sink but that is outer diameter and softener is 490mm. Nowhere else to put it without a pipework nightmare so current plan is to chop a hole in the bottom of the unit so it sits on the floor ...

Edited by Cascade360 on Sunday 15th May 19:45

[Cascade360]

The fitter still isn't sure if the softener will fit given it is a double belfast sink with two wastes, so it remains to be seen whether we might just have to ditch the idea altogether.

Forgot about the other frustrating thing, we got a boiler fitted about a year ago and got one that would fit in a kitchen cupboard deliberately. However because we went with tall DIY Kitchens wall units it wasn't in quite the right place and we have had to pay to get it lifted by about an inch. Then some of the new pipework leaked all over our floor yesterday. Urgh.

The delay on the damaged pieces is certainly the more annoying thing, as it is holding things up. Though given how many filler and end panels were damaged, I am not confident that the next ones they send us will not be...

[PrinceRupert]

DIY Kitchens is turning into a bit of a saga for us. They seem incapable of sending us filler or end panels which are not damaged. We have sent back about 80% of what they have sent us, and are onto the third delivery of replacement panels. They aren't arguing about sending them, but it takes about a week each time and it is really slowing things down on the fitting.

They also converted our plan into an order wrong, and sent us a 400 unit rather than a 350 unit. They won't refund it, despite a long battle with them, as the order was right - despite the fact they converted it wrong from the plan.

The fitter reckons the units are fairly decent, though the carcass construction isn't great - edges not properly in line, poor/weak joins/staples in places, which is making it a pain to fit pelmets etc.

Neff appliances are the other saga. 16 week delivery apparently from when we ordered in March for the oven, extractor hood and hob. Can't get worktops done until they are here. Looks like we will be looking at late July. And this is all just maybes from the supplier, no certainty.

[PrinceRupert]

RevHappy said:

You can template and fabricate the worktops without the hob. The just drop it in when it arrives.

The suggestion was that templating from dimensions on paper would be risky as if the actual hob was even a mm out from the dimensions on paper we would have a problem. Is this not true?

[PrinceRupert]

I have to say I really would not recommend DIY Kitchens to anyone.

Firstly, the carcasses are not that well screwed together and it has made fitting a bit challenging.

Secondly, they seem simply incapable of sending undamaged plinths, pelmets or end panels. I would estimate 80-90% have been sent back as damaged, and even replacements have been sent back as damaged. Each time it takes a week or longer to sort, and my fitter is having to fit things more than once due to it, and it means we haven't got our fridge up and running as we haven't yet got an undamaged decor end after two attempts. This morning a length of plinth arrived that is outrageously poor:





Yet despite this they still won't give me a full refund for the wrong sized cupboard that they mistakenly transposed incorrectly from the plan.

Edited by PrinceRupert on Friday 17th June 11:16

[PrinceRupert]

Following up on this ... newest best estimate on Neff ovens (x2), induction hob and extraction hood is mid September. Ordered on 10 March. That's just an estimate, it was mid July up until today.

In meantime we are operating with MDF worktops, a loaner Hotpoint and no hobs.

Extremely frustrating.

[PrinceRupert]

princeperch said:

49k? Is this a typo?

I'm about to have what I think is objectively a very attractive kitchen fitted (7.1m long) (as part of a much larger job) and it's coming in at 8.5k including appliances/separate island with power/quartz worktop (excluding fitting. I did a lot of shopping about for the best prices.

I shall post pictures in due course.

I mean high end appliances alone can cost more than 8.5k. My mid range Neff goodies were 6.5k.

[PrinceRupert]

princeperch said:

They can be as expensive or as cheap as you like. My parents in law spent 400 quid on a dishwasher the other day and I can see no discernible difference to the one that I got off eBay as a customer return for 150 quid.

If you shop around and are prepared to go and collect you can get some absolute bargains off eBay. People are sometimes almost giving the stuff away.

Obviously but not everyone wants or needs to cheap out on their kitchen.

[PrinceRupert]

princeperch said:

Personally I think a 50k kitchen in 750k house would be excessive for the average house in the south east of England. I sold my last house for more than 700k and the new owners absolutely loved the kitchen. It was at that stage nearly 8 years old and wasn't in bad nick and was a 15k jobby for magnet.

Noone can tell anyone else how to spend their money obviously but, and I think this is especially true if you are involving an interior designer/architect, they are very keen to spend your money (and convince you to do so) when something a little less excessive would be equally as nice. I don't think id have got anymore for my house if it had had a 50k kitchen rather than a 15k one.

Surely it is the same as buying a BMW or a Ford. The Ford is quite nice, but some people would rather spend more on the BMW.

I think ours ended up around 12k + 8k appliances/taps/sink etc + fitting/decorating + flooring (Amtico, 5k across kitchen/utility/downstairs bathroom) in a 500k house in the SE, FWIW.

bennno said:

Sold two in that range. Both large kitchens were circa 15-20k including neff appliances inc 2x ovens, granite tops, Belfast sinks, franke taps, painted solid oak shaker kitchens - both kitchens sold the properties. I’d struggle with spending 50k to be honest, current property we are refurbishing is very large but again it was still about 20k for a kitchen.

That seems pretty good going for 15-20k. As noted ours was similar but not a huge kitchen, quartz not granite, and painted mdf not solid oak.

[PrinceRupert]

princeperch said:

For my money 20k on a 500k house is a little excessive but if you're going to be there for 10 years then perhaps it was a wise investment.

I've actually chronically underspent on my new kitchen for the value of the house. When the work is finished to the house it'll be worth about 1.1, perhaps a smidge over.

But I think I have managed to make a cheap kitchen look expensive and worth more than the sum of its parts anyway. I'll post pictures in a couple of weeks and you can all start the pile on.

I'd have liked to have spent more (and could have done so) but have shown some restraint. Ive got nursery bills to pay for a few years yet and life isn't getting any cheaper.

It wasn't an investment, in the same way as buying a new car isn't an investment, or a video console, or an ice cream at the beach. It was spending my hard-earned money on nice things because I want to.

It also didn't feel we were all that excessive. We could have saved three or four grand by going for cheap appliances over Neff, but equally could have went up to Miele/Gaggenau and spent more. We went mid-range DIY Kitchens - could have went up a range, or for Magnet/John Lewis which were both significantly more expensive. We could have saved money by not going for expensive things such as drawers, carousels etc. but that would make the kitchen materially less nice to use. In our view, the extra five or six grand we probably spent going a bit nicer was well worth it, and frankly we could afford it. Obviously if we couldn't, we would have went cheaper ...