Kitchens - cheap vs expensive

[beambeam1]

CharlieDeltaTango said:

We went for the blue and white theme so tempted with a white tile floor too. But may live to regret that.

We went for something slightly similar except the flooring will be wood effect karndean when fitted:



Really like your colour scheme, that was as close as we could get to it with the options provided.

[Condi]

CharlieDeltaTango said:

We are shortly having our kitchen replaced in a property that we have just oved in to.


We went for the blue and white theme so tempted with a white tile floor too. But may live to regret that.

I went for a blue kitchen and white floor tiles and almost no regrets at all. The regret I do have is that I didn't spend more and get top quality tiles for the floor, because it's the one thing you can't change easily when everything else is in, but the colour is good. The tiles I did buy chip a little too easily, which has meant replacing a few especially when there was a tenant with young children here. They do get a bit dirty over time but get some really good tile cleaner and give them a quick clean and they're back to new.

The colour hasn't really come out in the photo below, maybe this was taken when they were quite dirty or maybe it's the light, but they're a very light grey/white.

This is from DIY Kitchens, with some budget wooden worktops from Worktop Express. Really pleased with how it came out, especially for the price. The boiler housing was custom built by a local joiner who also installed the worktops.

Edited by Condi on Monday 29th May 14:29

[BigBen]

Ian Geary said:

My question is: what are the tricks that good fitters know / what value do they add over bad fitters?

On the basis
- I own and can use spirit levels
- I own and can use squares and tape measures
- I can drill holes and tighten screws
- I can pay attention to details and won't have a "that'll do" mindset to my own house

(This is not a poor attempt at sarcasm - it's a genuine query btw.)

I think you are good to go. I recently added some units to our kitchen and I can't tell the difference between the bits I did and the bits the professional did. The worktop fitter commented on how level the cabinets were compared to many he sees!

[Mikebentley]

Well this time last year we were looking for a kitchen after 17yrs wait. We went to the usual suspects and even drove 250 miles to look at self fit in frame kitchens. We eventually opted for a local independent company. The reason for this was that the director who came out and looked at our existing layout listened. He came up with creative ideas and helped us get what we wanted. There was almost zero dead space, Wren was at least 25% voids. The price was maybe 10% more than Wren or Magnet with zero compromise. The units are made by Masterclass and are superb with a painted finish and solid tops in the units. They even project managed the whole installation and building works. It took about 4 weeks but was an absolute pleasure. Reliable local trades we have used since and quartz from a local company too. Anyway here are some pictures….he suggested the colour rather tongue in cheek with his first renders but we loved it.

[Mikebentley]

Edited by Mikebentley on Monday 29th May 18:56

[timbob]

BigBen said:

I think you are good to go. I recently added some units to our kitchen and I can't tell the difference between the bits I did and the bits the professional did. The worktop fitter commented on how level the cabinets were compared to many he sees!

I recently installed my own (ikea) kitchen. Had a recommended local joiner come to fit the worktops as the router and jigs were pretty spendy for a one-time job. When they came they did a couple of extra bits - built a little return under the batten for the end of the length worktop that was over the dishwasher and washing machine. It looks nice enough, but I had to take out the divider they’d inserted under the worktop between the two appliance gaps - they’d left gaps *exactly* 600 wide, which would have been a tight fit, but it was out of square by a few mm top to bottom and front to back and I couldn’t fit either appliance in. Had to take it out and sort myself a solution.

I can wield a tape measure, drill and cut in a straight line and use a spirit level. And as it was my own kitchen I didn’t mind a bit of extra “pottering” time over the “that’ll do” approach of a professional to get everything exactly level and nicely finished. Really pleased with the way it’s come out, enjoyed the process, learnt a good few new skills and saved myself literally thousands. What’s not to like?

[CharlesdeGaulle]

Mikebentley said:

Well this time last year we were looking for a kitchen after 17yrs wait. We went to the usual suspects and even drove 250 miles to look at self fit in frame kitchens. We eventually opted for a local independent company. The reason for this was that the director who came out and looked at our existing layout listened. He came up with creative ideas and helped us get what we wanted. There was almost zero dead space, Wren was at least 25% voids. The price was maybe 10% more than Wren or Magnet with zero compromise. The units are made by Masterclass and are superb with a painted finish and solid tops in the units. They even project managed the whole installation and building works. It took about 4 weeks but was an absolute pleasure. Reliable local trades we have used since and quartz from a local company too. Anyway here are some pictures….he suggested the colour rather tongue in cheek with his first renders but we loved it.

Great colours. I like that a lot.

[Ian Geary]

Thanks both, appreciate your thoughts.

Ps it seems the fickle finger of fashion has gone from blue kitchens to green kitchens. Wrens, Wickes, b and q - all virtually identical colours...

timbob said:

BigBen said:

I think you are good to go. I recently added some units to our kitchen and I can't tell the difference between the bits I did and the bits the professional did. The worktop fitter commented on how level the cabinets were compared to many he sees!

I recently installed my own (ikea) kitchen. Had a recommended local joiner come to fit the worktops as the router and jigs were pretty spendy for a one-time job. When they came they did a couple of extra bits - built a little return under the batten for the end of the length worktop that was over the dishwasher and washing machine. It looks nice enough, but I had to take out the divider they’d inserted under the worktop between the two appliance gaps - they’d left gaps *exactly* 600 wide, which would have been a tight fit, but it was out of square by a few mm top to bottom and front to back and I couldn’t fit either appliance in. Had to take it out and sort myself a solution.

I can wield a tape measure, drill and cut in a straight line and use a spirit level. And as it was my own kitchen I didn’t mind a bit of extra “pottering” time over the “that’ll do” approach of a professional to get everything exactly level and nicely finished. Really pleased with the way it’s come out, enjoyed the process, learnt a good few new skills and saved myself literally thousands. What’s not to like?

[Mikebentley]

CharlesdeGaulle said:

Mikebentley said:

Well this time last year we were looking for a kitchen after 17yrs wait. We went to the usual suspects and even drove 250 miles to look at self fit in frame kitchens. We eventually opted for a local independent company. The reason for this was that the director who came out and looked at our existing layout listened. He came up with creative ideas and helped us get what we wanted. There was almost zero dead space, Wren was at least 25% voids. The price was maybe 10% more than Wren or Magnet with zero compromise. The units are made by Masterclass and are superb with a painted finish and solid tops in the units. They even project managed the whole installation and building works. It took about 4 weeks but was an absolute pleasure. Reliable local trades we have used since and quartz from a local company too. Anyway here are some pictures….he suggested the colour rather tongue in cheek with his first renders but we loved it.

Great colours. I like that a lot.

Cheers Charles. One trick they did was mount the cabinets 100mm from the wall so the 30mm thick quartz tops are 750mm deep giving a real sense of opulence. The rounded corners are great and attention to detail is phenomenal. The colour is a bold choice but everyone says they love it. I have a very pleased wife but I love it too.

[threadlock]

Ian Geary said:

I find DIY satisfying, and it makes money go further (albeit more slowly) and I have seen a lot of references to bad fitters Vs good fitters.

My question is: what are the tricks that good fitters know / what value do they add over bad fitters?

On the basis
- I own and can use spirit levels
- I own and can use squares and tape measures
- I can drill holes and tighten screws
- I can pay attention to details and won't have a "that'll do" mindset to my own house

(This is not a poor attempt at sarcasm - it's a genuine query btw.)

I wouldn't do the worktops, and would get gas safe/part p / part h sign off where needed.

I fitted our new kitchen a couple of years ago (photos earlier in this thread) and it was very satisfying. The outcome is really good (tradespeople have commented since) and we saved lots of money. It's not that hard if you take your time and are careful. Go for it!

[threadlock]

Mikebentley said:

I also like the colour! Not sure I'd be brave enough to choose it for myself, but I do think it works well.

[Yazza54]

Very pleased with our magnet kitchen, couple of bits left to do, new door to the room and kick plates on the corner larder unit but it's 99% there. The corner larder hides/wraps round what was a rather unsightly diagonal stair bulkhead. The other side of the room there's a sofa, TV on wall and dining table.

Worktops are Calcutta gold from mister marble who were absolutely fantastic start to finish. Went for a quooker tap too which is brilliant. All timber doors not MDF and carcasses 18mm.

[Road2Ruin]

threadlock said:

Ian Geary said:

I find DIY satisfying, and it makes money go further (albeit more slowly) and I have seen a lot of references to bad fitters Vs good fitters.

My question is: what are the tricks that good fitters know / what value do they add over bad fitters?

On the basis
- I own and can use spirit levels
- I own and can use squares and tape measures
- I can drill holes and tighten screws
- I can pay attention to details and won't have a "that'll do" mindset to my own house

(This is not a poor attempt at sarcasm - it's a genuine query btw.)

I wouldn't do the worktops, and would get gas safe/part p / part h sign off where needed.

I fitted our new kitchen a couple of years ago (photos earlier in this thread) and it was very satisfying. The outcome is really good (tradespeople have commented since) and we saved lots of money. It's not that hard if you take your time and are careful. Go for it!

A good fitter won't just work off the plans. They think ahead, question what's been out down and liase with the customer. Ad an example, a friend of mine, who normally fits for Magnet, did our kitchen. A gap had of about 100mm had been left between with oven tower unit and a wall on the plans. He went to Howdens picked up a filler piece and cut it to a perfect fit. No mean feat, as the wall was not even the whole way up. He then adjusted some wall units as he fitted them due to the wall not being very level (old 1930s house). Most would just have fitted and left gaps or filled with caulk. He even built a cupboard from left over parts, over our CU in the utility room and fixed a leak In our upstairs toilet...

[Mikebentley]

Road2Ruin said:

threadlock said:

Ian Geary said:

I find DIY satisfying, and it makes money go further (albeit more slowly) and I have seen a lot of references to bad fitters Vs good fitters.

My question is: what are the tricks that good fitters know / what value do they add over bad fitters?

On the basis
- I own and can use spirit levels
- I own and can use squares and tape measures
- I can drill holes and tighten screws
- I can pay attention to details and won't have a "that'll do" mindset to my own house

(This is not a poor attempt at sarcasm - it's a genuine query btw.)

I wouldn't do the worktops, and would get gas safe/part p / part h sign off where needed.

I fitted our new kitchen a couple of years ago (photos earlier in this thread) and it was very satisfying. The outcome is really good (tradespeople have commented since) and we saved lots of money. It's not that hard if you take your time and are careful. Go for it!

A good fitter won't just work off the plans. They think ahead, question what's been out down and liase with the customer. Ad an example, a friend of mine, who normally fits for Magnet, did our kitchen. A gap had of about 100mm had been left between with oven tower unit and a wall on the plans. He went to Howdens picked up a filler piece and cut it to a perfect fit. No mean feat, as the wall was not even the whole way up. He then adjusted some wall units as he fitted them due to the wall not being very level (old 1930s house). Most would just have fitted and left gaps or filled with caulk. He even built a cupboard from left over parts, over our CU in the utility room and fixed a leak In our upstairs toilet...

^^^^ This in spades the fitter who installed our pink kitchen above was a craftsman and a perfectionist. . All his kit was Festool. He would challenge the drawings and discuss with both us and the project manager (director of kitchen company) to ensure everything was as good as it could possibly be.

[Cupid-stunt]

Mikebentley said:

Road2Ruin said:

threadlock said:

Ian Geary said:

I find DIY satisfying, and it makes money go further (albeit more slowly) and I have seen a lot of references to bad fitters Vs good fitters.

My question is: what are the tricks that good fitters know / what value do they add over bad fitters?

On the basis
- I own and can use spirit levels
- I own and can use squares and tape measures
- I can drill holes and tighten screws
- I can pay attention to details and won't have a "that'll do" mindset to my own house

(This is not a poor attempt at sarcasm - it's a genuine query btw.)

I wouldn't do the worktops, and would get gas safe/part p / part h sign off where needed.

I fitted our new kitchen a couple of years ago (photos earlier in this thread) and it was very satisfying. The outcome is really good (tradespeople have commented since) and we saved lots of money. It's not that hard if you take your time and are careful. Go for it!

A good fitter won't just work off the plans. They think ahead, question what's been out down and liase with the customer. Ad an example, a friend of mine, who normally fits for Magnet, did our kitchen. A gap had of about 100mm had been left between with oven tower unit and a wall on the plans. He went to Howdens picked up a filler piece and cut it to a perfect fit. No mean feat, as the wall was not even the whole way up. He then adjusted some wall units as he fitted them due to the wall not being very level (old 1930s house). Most would just have fitted and left gaps or filled with caulk. He even built a cupboard from left over parts, over our CU in the utility room and fixed a leak In our upstairs toilet...

^^^^ This in spades the fitter who installed our pink kitchen above was a craftsman and a perfectionist. . All his kit was Festool. He would challenge the drawings and discuss with both us and the project manager (director of kitchen company) to ensure everything was as good as it could possibly be.

Ditto.
The fitter was superb. A few 'issues' came up when the installation was taking place and it was his solutions that were sending my wife into a meltdown that made the project go as smooth as it could possibly.
Uneven floor meant the kickboard was circa 3mm different from one end to another - sorted.
the kind people at NEFF didn't tell me that I needed to seperately order a ducting kit at the back of the cooker and didn't have one available when it came to installation. A few phone calls, and searching online and a solution was put together meaning we were only a day later on the schedule.

Fancy Festool kit as well ....

[shtu]

Resurrection time!

Currently planning out a replacement kitchen, and one of the many questions I have is,

Appliances. Inbuilt, freestanding, and why?

At present the selections are,

Cooker - freestanding, reusing existing range cooker.
Microwave - freestanding, there's a blocked-up window that has been turned into a feature and houses this.
Fridge, freezer - undecided. One layout option would suit a freestanding american-style.
Dishwasher - undecided.
Washing machine - undecided.

On one hand, I like the "neatness" of inbuilt applicances
On the other, a failed appliance risks becoming a PITA.

[Sheepshanks]

shtu said:

Fridge, freezer - undecided. One layout option would suit a freestanding american-style.
Dishwasher - undecided.
Washing machine - undecided.

We have an American FF - our old kitchen was custom built by a local kitchen factory (wasn't expensive) and the FF appeared built in with units either side and above. New kitch has a hole in the wall between it and utility room so only the doors stick into the kitchen and the rest of the FF is in the utility.

With washing machine particularly you''ll be quite limited in choice for built in. Our old Bosch built-in just didn't make it until our house was refurbed so we had to replace and I think Bosch only did two built-in machines and they were both expensive. It's now in the utility as a stand-alone.

There's much more choice with dishwashers and an advantage of built-in is it doesn't impact any OCD you might have if the appliances are different makes. Built-in seem to be noiser though - our fairly high-Neff seems bonkers noisy, our daughter has a mid-range stand-alone Bosch and you'd barely know it was on.


They're not really a PITA to replace - washing machine wasn't fixed in at all, dishwasher just has a couple of brackets, In our case we replaced both appliances that were around 20yrs old with same make and the door fitment was same.

[DT1975]

Quote in, any thoughts?

Howdens Halesworth (mid range) kitchen 8m x 4m / utility 28 units . Price includes Bosch appliances - price matched, 5 ring induction hob, dishwasher, 2 x ovens, under counter fridge & freezer = total £15,200 INC vat

Quartz £4200 (separate company) inc VAT

Not far off a similar quote in 2019.

However what I'm struggling with is the following (I'm obviously out of touch)

Kitchen removal = £1500
1st & 2nd fix plumbing (two sinks, water softener, dishwasher, replace rad = £1200
1st & 2nd fix electrics (new feed for hob, under counter lighting) =£1320
Plasterer. 5 walls (1 large , 4 small) skim one small ceiling, refit coving =£1100
Install kitchen £3000
Fit flooring (supplied by me) £500

Total fitting £8600

Grand total £28,000 - nearly choked :-)


Obviously the fitter has included a profit margin for his business but do these rates seem normal. I had an identical quote four years back for broadly the same job and the removal, fitting, all trades came in at £3500.

Edited by DT1975 on Thursday 15th June 12:57

[Sheepshanks]

DT1975 said:

Obviously the fitter has included a profit margin for his business....

Is the Howdens price direct to you, or through the fitter?

Our Howdens kitchen was fitted last year as part of an extension / refurb and the only separate charge from the builder was for his "ace" kitchen fitter (who even the builder's joiners thought was a bit rubbish) at £2K.

However the builder's price for the kitchen itself was eye-watering - about the same as yours, also mid-range, but nothing like as many units (there's just a run on one wall and an island) and the only appliances they supplied was the top of the range Neff double oven and the extractor.

I sourced the quartz myself (builder was a bit miffed about that) - got two quotes both same as yours. The firm I chose messed it up and had to come back and the builder did comment about that but he worked around it.

Edited by Sheepshanks on Thursday 15th June 14:56

[DT1975]

Sheepshanks said:

Is the Howdens price direct to you, or through the fitter?

Our Howdens kitchen was fitted last year as part of an extension / refurb and the only separate charge from the builder was for his "ace" kitchen fitter (who even the builder's joiners though was a bit rubbish) at £2K.

However the builder's price for the kitchen itself was eye-watering - about the same as yours, also mid-range, but nothing like as many units (there's just a run on one wall and an island) and the only appliances they supplied was the top of the range Neff double oven and the extractor.

I sourced the quartz myself (builder was a bit miffed about that) - got two quotes both same as yours. The firm I chose messed it up and had to come back and the builder did comment about that but he worked around it.

I guess its from Howdens in conjunction with the fitter applying his discount etc.

So to break it down Kitchen and appliances £15k
Quartz £4200 (from fitter)
Removal and fitting / trades £8.5k

If I broke the trade prices down they're on £500-£600 a day (minus VAT) but including whatever they use ie a couple of bags of plaster, speedfit fittings or whatever, a length or two of cable for the sparky.

Its a modern house, the kitchen is a direct swap for the old, the only difference is adding another feed for the hob and lighting for units.