Drayton Wiser - Hints and Tips Thread

[juggsy]

B'stard Child said:

It's a result of the Algorithms that the control unit is running

I wonder if you have the same issue as me in that when it stops it also stops the circulation pump - this is a real pain because it means the time taken to drop the return temp down to boiler start point is elongated

I've got a Circulation pump run on box which once I have a separate fuse spur in the Airing cupboard where the pump is it will kick in every time the Wiser controller shuts down the boiler

I always assumed all systems shut of the pump when they shut off the boiler? Out of curiosity how long does the run on box go for after the boiler is shut off?

[AW10]

juggsy said:

I’ve noticed that despite wiser calling for heat, it seems to shut off the boiler a degree before the target temp, almost like it’s expecting the house to get up to temp with the residual heat without the boiler running.

This is a pain because if the house is set to 19 but it’s already 18 degrees, the boiler runs for 10 mins and then shuts off, so we don’t actually get any heat. I’d rather it get to temp before shutting off the boiler. Is this normal behaviour for others? I know it’s not the boiler cycling because if I crank the thermostat a half a degree, it kicks into life.

Can you provide more details on your system - thermostats or smart TRVs or both?

[B'stard Child]

juggsy said:

B'stard Child said:

It's a result of the Algorithms that the control unit is running

I wonder if you have the same issue as me in that when it stops it also stops the circulation pump - this is a real pain because it means the time taken to drop the return temp down to boiler start point is elongated

I've got a Circulation pump run on box which once I have a separate fuse spur in the Airing cupboard where the pump is it will kick in every time the Wiser controller shuts down the boiler

I always assumed all systems shut of the pump when they shut off the boiler? Out of curiosity how long does the run on box go for after the boiler is shut off?

Most modern boilers don't stop the pump - my issue is that I have a modern boiler on an old Y plan system

You only need about 5 mins to make a serious dent in the circuit temps - boiler will start back up straight away when Wiser allows it to restart

Right now Wiser shuts down - system just sits and cooks with no flow - restarts and there is still heat in the circuit so it has to dissipate that heat until return temp triggers boiler restart and for me that's another 5 mins

[Joe M]

I guess a lot if it is specific to the boiler and how the wiser communicates.
Mine is I an ideal boiler, connected through opentherm and the pump does run on for a bit after heat demand stops.

[nssimpson]

Anyone sick of replacing single-use batteries or trying to use 1.2V rechargeable batteries that the Wiser thermostats show as dead after a week?

I bought these lithium-ion AA batteries and they are awesome:


Been in months and the Wiser app still shows that every thermostat has fully charged batteries!!!

[juggsy]

AW10 said:

Can you provide more details on your system - thermostats or smart TRVs or both?

Right now it’s a very simple system, one thermostat calling the shots. All the rads at present are on manual TRVs rather than smart ones. This is connected to a year old Worcester Bosch external oil boiler. I don’t believe it has opentherm
Etc

I do actually have a box of the TRVs but haven’t installed them yet (although I’m not sure they would solve this particular issue as they are less accurate than the wall thermostats).

[juggsy]

Joe M said:

I guess a lot if it is specific to the boiler and how the wiser communicates.
Mine is I an ideal boiler, connected through opentherm and the pump does run on for a bit after heat demand stops.

My boiler is a year old, an external oil boiler. But as soon as wiser stops calling for hear the pump stops and the valves (s plan) close. I assume that’s the boiler controlling that, as wiser only controls the call for heat, not what happens elsewhere in the system.

[AW10]

juggsy said:

Right now it’s a very simple system, one thermostat calling the shots. All the rads at present are on manual TRVs rather than smart ones. This is connected to a year old Worcester Bosch external oil boiler. I don’t believe it has opentherm
Etc

I do actually have a box of the TRVs but haven’t installed them yet (although I’m not sure they would solve this particular issue as they are less accurate than the wall thermostats).

In the app under devices —> hub there’s a setting for the heat source type; is it set to oil? If yes try changing it to gas and seeing what happens?

[juggsy]

AW10 said:

In the app under devices —> hub there’s a setting for the heat source type; is it set to oil? If yes try changing it to gas and seeing what happens?

Thanks, should be set to oil, but whenever I change it, it appears blank. Not sure if it’s a UI bug and the setting is being changed or not, or if you /anyone else is seeing this behaviour?

[mrpbailey]

juggsy said:

BlindedByTheLights said:

Does anyone else’s app keep signing them out every few days? Very annoying as you can’t use iOS password manager to sign back in either.

Yes, although weirdly to my wife more than me (we share the same credentials as Wiser doesn’t have the concept of different users).

Most often happens when most inconvenient too!

Mine does this, and has done it 4 times in the past fortnight which is annoying!

[AW10]

juggsy said:

Thanks, should be set to oil, but whenever I change it, it appears blank. Not sure if it’s a UI bug and the setting is being changed or not, or if you /anyone else is seeing this behaviour?

I believe that’s a known bug in this version of the app.

[juggsy]

AW10 said:

juggsy said:

Thanks, should be set to oil, but whenever I change it, it appears blank. Not sure if it’s a UI bug and the setting is being changed or not, or if you /anyone else is seeing this behaviour?

I believe that’s a known bug in this version of the app.

Yeah I now recall I saw this issue some time ago, surprised it hasn't been fixed. Unfortunately it's stuff like this, the slightly unpredictable behaviour at times (shutting off 1 degree under target), not to mention the way their support is run, which makes me thing the whole Wiser ecosystem is somewhat...noddy.

[B'stard Child]

juggsy said:

I do actually have a box of the TRVs but haven’t installed them yet (although I’m not sure they would solve this particular issue as they are less accurate than the wall thermostats).

No but just for info the more rooms you have with "Smart" TRV's the more that Wiser Controller will shut down the boiler as the room reaches target temps (unless of course all rooms heat up at the same rate and reach target temps)

This is what I found when I had all the rooms set to the same target temp - I've since changed to reflect true temps required for each room and compensated for the inaccuracy of the TRV's

[juggsy]

B'stard Child said:

No but just for info the more rooms you have with "Smart" TRV's the more that Wiser Controller will shut down the boiler as the room reaches target temps (unless of course all rooms heat up at the same rate and reach target temps)

This is what I found when I had all the rooms set to the same target temp - I've since changed to reflect true temps required for each room and compensated for the inaccuracy of the TRV's

Thanks, yeah I've had the TRVs setup previously so know they will call for heat at different times dependent on the room temp. The problem with an oil boiler is it doesn't regulate like a gas one, so will burn at the same rate whether one rad or 20 are calling for heat (although obviously a single rad will get to temp quicker than if all rad TRVs were calling for heat)

[cml24]

nssimpson said:

Anyone sick of replacing single-use batteries or trying to use 1.2V rechargeable batteries that the Wiser thermostats show as dead after a week?

I bought these lithium-ion AA batteries and they are awesome:


Been in months and the Wiser app still shows that every thermostat has fully charged batteries!!!

My batteries have been in the thermostat for 18 months now and currently showing half battery. Doesn't seem to be an issue that needs solving for me.

HOWEVER! Those rechargeable batteries look great, I shall take a look at them for other purposes.

[London1986]

I've installed Wiser TRVs about a week ago and will share my initial thoughts.

I thought about starting a new thread but this thread seemed appropriate.

In my 7 days of being a Wiser user, I've learned 2 things that had I known sooner, may have prevented me from purchasing the system. Those things are the following...

• Accuracy of the TRV's reported temperatures - Some of these are way off. I have found that the colder it is outside, the the greater the difference in temp. The other day it was 4 degrees outside, my bedroom was reporting 21 degrees but actual temp was 17! ( I set my bedroom to 21 as I wanted the room to be 19 as the previous night, the offset was 2 degrees.) They just don't seem to be able to cope with very cold weather or if a room isn't very well insulated. I have reached out to Wiser but they haven't been much help, just guiding me down their tutorials for calibrating the valves. If it was consistently off, that would be easier to manage as I can simply offset the set temp in the app, but I've found it doesn't seem to be consistent.

• Second thing is the concept of zoned heating - In theory, heating only the rooms in use seems great. However in reality, I find the colder rooms steal heat from the warmer rooms, preventing the rooms to heat up fully as they would if you just had the house on a regular heating cycle, so the whole house heats up at one time. There seems to be a lot of things online that support this. Heat Geek also has a few vids about this being a fallacy.

So my questions are...

1. Do these smart TRVs actually give you much benefit over regular, well configured, dumb TRVs? If so, how are you configuring your smart valves? I'm guessing a better way of using these valves is by still heating the whole house but just reducing your set temps for rooms you aren't using, as opposed to having them too low where they steal heat.
2. Has anyone done a comparison test, smart vs dumb TRVs? This is something I'm planning on doing; running a few days with smart valves, heating the rooms being used and having reduced temps in the rooms not in use vs removing them all and replacing them with dumb TRVS and running the heating on a traditional program so heating comes on in the morning and evening. I'd be very interested how the gas usage differs.

There may also be something in using a mix of dumb and smart TRVs where you would primarily use dumb TRVs throughout the house and only use the Wiser TRVs for those rooms where you'd like more granular control.

Interested to hear other opinions on the above.

[B'stard Child]

London1986 said:

I've installed Wiser TRVs about a week ago and will share my initial thoughts.

I thought about starting a new thread but this thread seemed appropriate.

I agree - no better place for it and it keeps it all in one thread

London1986 said:

In my 7 days of being a Wiser user, I've learned 2 things that had I known sooner, may have prevented me from purchasing the system. Those things are the following...

• Accuracy of the TRV's reported temperatures - Some of these are way off. I have found that the colder it is outside, the the greater the difference in temp. The other day it was 4 degrees outside, my bedroom was reporting 21 degrees but actual temp was 17! ( I set my bedroom to 21 as I wanted the room to be 19 as the previous night, the offset was 2 degrees.) They just don't seem to be able to cope with very cold weather or if a room isn't very well insulated. I have reached out to Wiser but they haven't been much help, just guiding me down their tutorials for calibrating the valves. If it was consistently off, that would be easier to manage as I can simply offset the set temp in the app, but I've found it doesn't seem to be consistent.

It's a beef I have with the system too - having discovered exactly the same - however I have compensated myself with the set point based on a couple of stand alone temp and humidity monitors - they are cheap and can be moved around to validate on a room by room basis

I'm not seeing an inconsistancy in temps reported and I did swap a few smart TRV's around to see if it was specific TRV related and found the same picture.

What I would say is that for our house rooms facing North read a lot lower than rooms facing south (ie the fabric of the house on the north side sucks out heat faster)

London1986 said:

* Second thing is the concept of zoned heating - In theory, heating only the rooms in use seems great. However in reality, I find the colder rooms steal heat from the warmer rooms, preventing the rooms to heat up fully as they would if you just had the house on a regular heating cycle, so the whole house heats up at one time. There seems to be a lot of things online that support this. Heat Geek also has a few vids about this being a fallacy.

For this specific issue I quickly found that not heating rooms put a much greater demand on the CH system when the rooms were required to be heated

My example - Dining Room and Living Room are not used AM but used PM

Not heating AM meant that the warm up time PM was much longer than I would like so ended up increasing the heating time to compensate - what I did was effectively set the AM temps to a set back so they did get a little heat up to 3-4 deg less than target

This meant that the PM warm up was much faster and didn't require extended heating periods

London1986 said:

So my questions are...

1. Do these smart TRVs actually give you much benefit over regular, well configured, dumb TRVs? If so, how are you configuring your smart valves? I'm guessing a better way of using these valves is by still heating the whole house but just reducing your set temps for rooms you aren't using, as opposed to having them too low where they steal heat.

Yes - although I am still using the system as a time clock based program - I've not yet made the leap to Heating on all the time and set backs for periods when the house isn't occupied

What I have proved is at the weekends we use less gas on Sunday after a Sat of all day heating - the fabric of the house sucks up the heat and then the next day it takes a much lower level of gas to maintain it.

London1986 said:

# Has anyone done a comparison test, smart vs dumb TRVs? This is something I'm planning on doing; running a few days with smart valves, heating the rooms being used and having reduced temps in the rooms not in use vs removing them all and replacing them with dumb TRVS and running the heating on a traditional program so heating comes on in the morning and evening. I'd be very interested how the gas usage differs.

I started with a few Smart TRV's and a lot of dumb TRV's but I'm now down to just one dumb TRV and all the rest of the rads are Smart

I am going to revert one rad to no TRV at all but specific house layout lends itself to this for the CH pump 5 min over-run facility I plan to implement to stop the boiler sitting hot when the time clock stops the heating cycle

London1986 said:

There may also be something in using a mix of dumb and smart TRVs where you would primarily use dumb TRVs throughout the house and only use the Wiser TRVs for those rooms where you'd like more granular control.

Interested to hear other opinions on the above.

I considered this but ruled it out on the basis that Mrs BC would walk into a room controlled by a dumb TRV - determine that the room was too cold (even if the heating had just come on) and would wind the fker up to max and then leave the room........ I think I'm not alone in being burdened with a partner than has no understanding of a heating system and the control element of a TRV........

[dhutch]

It's definitely a thing that if you reduce the number of heated rooms too much, you end up effectively heating the whole house from half the number of rads. In effect just knee caping yourself in emitter size, which is exactly what you don't want for efficient heating and low return temperatures.

Obviously the exact details depend on house layout, usage, how well insulated external walls are Vs internal walls. Airtightness, etc.

[London1986]

B'stard Child said:

For this specific issue I quickly found that not heating rooms put a much greater demand on the CH system when the rooms were required to be heated

My example - Dining Room and Living Room are not used AM but used PM

Not heating AM meant that the warm up time PM was much longer than I would like so ended up increasing the heating time to compensate - what I did was effectively set the AM temps to a set back so they did get a little heat up to 3-4 deg less than target

This meant that the PM warm up was much faster and didn't require extended heating periods

Yes exactly this. Do you use comfort mode or are you manually setting your target temps for the PM?

B'stard Child said:

I considered this but ruled it out on the basis that Mrs BC would walk into a room controlled by a dumb TRV - determine that the room was too cold (even if the heating had just come on) and would wind the fker up to max and then leave the room........ I think I'm not alone in being burdened with a partner than has no understanding of a heating system and the control element of a TRV........

Ha yes this would throw your whole experiment out the window. You are definitely not alone there mate, however my mrs is under strict instruction not to touch the valves or the wiser room stat. Any changes in temp she needs to come to me so I can adjust the schedule. I’m trying to get to a point where I can set and forget the temp. Once I get something consistent, then I’ll try experimenting with smart valves vs dumb

[London1986]

dhutch said:

It's definitely a thing that if you reduce the number of heated rooms too much, you end up effectively heating the whole house from half the number of rads. In effect just knee caping yourself in emitter size, which is exactly what you don't want for efficient heating and low return temperatures.

Obviously the exact details depend on house layout, usage, how well insulated external walls are Vs internal walls. Airtightness, etc.

Exactly this!

One example of this was an idea to have the kitchen very low during the evening and night. Because why does the kitchen need to be heated at night right? The downside of this however was the bedroom above was a lot colder as it didn't benefit from the rising heat it would have normally got from the kitchen. So in this instance, like you say, the heat in the kitchen was reduced too much. However if its set back just a bit, then the bedroom above wouldn't have to work as hard to offset the cold room below.