New build deviating from plans…
Discussion
Zarco said:
FWIW I was responding to the comment that some people will reject new cars for lesser defects. This is not a fair comparison as only one is built in factory conditions.
I was not excusing the issue we have in this thread where the stairs clash with the door frame.
As I've previously said; robotic brick layers can't come soon enough.
They're already here, Google it.I was not excusing the issue we have in this thread where the stairs clash with the door frame.
As I've previously said; robotic brick layers can't come soon enough.
Tango13 said:
I'm with Mr Whippy on this, my late grandfather did his apprenticeship as a brick layer and was so good he did a second apprenticeship as a civil engineer. One of the last jobs he did was two parallel walls for the front steps at my parents house, when he finished he measured them and said it was time to quit as the walls were out by 1/16" or 1.6mm in new money.
These builders obviously have zero pride in their work and the management are no better
If you think a house can be built to within 1.6mm you are deluded. These builders obviously have zero pride in their work and the management are no better
_-XXXX-_ said:
Tango13 said:
I'm with Mr Whippy on this, my late grandfather did his apprenticeship as a brick layer and was so good he did a second apprenticeship as a civil engineer. One of the last jobs he did was two parallel walls for the front steps at my parents house, when he finished he measured them and said it was time to quit as the walls were out by 1/16" or 1.6mm in new money.
These builders obviously have zero pride in their work and the management are no better
If you think a house can be built to within 1.6mm you are deluded. These builders obviously have zero pride in their work and the management are no better
Even the bricks have a larger tolerance than that.
https://www.imperialbricks.co.uk/guidance/dimensio...
https://www.imperialbricks.co.uk/guidance/dimensio...
_-XXXX-_ said:
Even the bricks have a larger tolerance than that.
https://www.imperialbricks.co.uk/guidance/dimensio...
Quite https://www.imperialbricks.co.uk/guidance/dimensio...
thebraketester said:
_-XXXX-_ said:
Tango13 said:
I'm with Mr Whippy on this, my late grandfather did his apprenticeship as a brick layer and was so good he did a second apprenticeship as a civil engineer. One of the last jobs he did was two parallel walls for the front steps at my parents house, when he finished he measured them and said it was time to quit as the walls were out by 1/16" or 1.6mm in new money.
These builders obviously have zero pride in their work and the management are no better
If you think a house can be built to within 1.6mm you are deluded. These builders obviously have zero pride in their work and the management are no better
blueg33 said:
thebraketester said:
_-XXXX-_ said:
Tango13 said:
I'm with Mr Whippy on this, my late grandfather did his apprenticeship as a brick layer and was so good he did a second apprenticeship as a civil engineer. One of the last jobs he did was two parallel walls for the front steps at my parents house, when he finished he measured them and said it was time to quit as the walls were out by 1/16" or 1.6mm in new money.
These builders obviously have zero pride in their work and the management are no better
If you think a house can be built to within 1.6mm you are deluded. These builders obviously have zero pride in their work and the management are no better
Watching my grandfather work he would spend an hour or two measuring, checking then double checking before laying a couple of bricks. Then he would measure to ensure those bricks were in the correct place. Once he was satisfied everything was correct you needed running shoes on to keep up with his work rate.
He did one job out in Greece that hadn't been layed out correctly so he had the whole lot dug out and he re-did it to his standards, his managers were doing their nut complaining about the delays and costs etc but as the site was now correct his team didn't have to work around any errors and they brought the job in ahead of time & under budget.
He used to build tapered brick arches for firing ceramics so the arch at one end would need to be of a totally different height/width to the one at the other end some dozens of yards away whilst still running perfectly true to the rail lines running down the middle.
Tango13 said:
There's a saying in military circles 'time spent in reconnaissance is seldom wasted'
Watching my grandfather work he would spend an hour or two measuring, checking then double checking before laying a couple of bricks. Then he would measure to ensure those bricks were in the correct place. Once he was satisfied everything was correct you needed running shoes on to keep up with his work rate.
He did one job out in Greece that hadn't been layed out correctly so he had the whole lot dug out and he re-did it to his standards, his managers were doing their nut complaining about the delays and costs etc but as the site was now correct his team didn't have to work around any errors and they brought the job in ahead of time & under budget.
He used to build tapered brick arches for firing ceramics so the arch at one end would need to be of a totally different height/width to the one at the other end some dozens of yards away whilst still running perfectly true to the rail lines running down the middle.
Use of time is a balance. Doubling build time would cost more than sorting out snags, most of which are minorWatching my grandfather work he would spend an hour or two measuring, checking then double checking before laying a couple of bricks. Then he would measure to ensure those bricks were in the correct place. Once he was satisfied everything was correct you needed running shoes on to keep up with his work rate.
He did one job out in Greece that hadn't been layed out correctly so he had the whole lot dug out and he re-did it to his standards, his managers were doing their nut complaining about the delays and costs etc but as the site was now correct his team didn't have to work around any errors and they brought the job in ahead of time & under budget.
He used to build tapered brick arches for firing ceramics so the arch at one end would need to be of a totally different height/width to the one at the other end some dozens of yards away whilst still running perfectly true to the rail lines running down the middle.
It wouldn’t double build time.
You don’t fix the important/difficult snags any way, you filibuster them away, and if there is a client with a hope they’ll get their way, you just offer a way out of the deal as at that point it’s cheaper just to sell to the next mug.
Do you provide a contract exchange document that shows what a client will get?
Ie, all plans, drawings, materials, etc, so they can exercise the caveats in the contracts to raise material changes/discrepancies?
Is opportunity provided in the contract terms to allow surveys/checks to ensure compliance by the client and their representatives?
I’m sure the answer is no.
But while housing is in such short supply and buyers are desperate for anything, builders will get away with selling stuff with myriad faults.
You don’t fix the important/difficult snags any way, you filibuster them away, and if there is a client with a hope they’ll get their way, you just offer a way out of the deal as at that point it’s cheaper just to sell to the next mug.
Do you provide a contract exchange document that shows what a client will get?
Ie, all plans, drawings, materials, etc, so they can exercise the caveats in the contracts to raise material changes/discrepancies?
Is opportunity provided in the contract terms to allow surveys/checks to ensure compliance by the client and their representatives?
I’m sure the answer is no.
But while housing is in such short supply and buyers are desperate for anything, builders will get away with selling stuff with myriad faults.
Mr Whippy said:
It wouldn’t double build time.
You don’t fix the important/difficult snags any way, you filibuster them away, and if there is a client with a hope they’ll get their way, you just offer a way out of the deal as at that point it’s cheaper just to sell to the next mug.
Do you provide a contract exchange document that shows what a client will get?
Ie, all plans, drawings, materials, etc, so they can exercise the caveats in the contracts to raise material changes/discrepancies?
Is opportunity provided in the contract terms to allow surveys/checks to ensure compliance by the client and their representatives?
I’m sure the answer is no.
But while housing is in such short supply and buyers are desperate for anything, builders will get away with selling stuff with myriad faults.
It wouldn't double it, but that was merely an example. The key point is balance.You don’t fix the important/difficult snags any way, you filibuster them away, and if there is a client with a hope they’ll get their way, you just offer a way out of the deal as at that point it’s cheaper just to sell to the next mug.
Do you provide a contract exchange document that shows what a client will get?
Ie, all plans, drawings, materials, etc, so they can exercise the caveats in the contracts to raise material changes/discrepancies?
Is opportunity provided in the contract terms to allow surveys/checks to ensure compliance by the client and their representatives?
I’m sure the answer is no.
But while housing is in such short supply and buyers are desperate for anything, builders will get away with selling stuff with myriad faults.
You have no idea how we deal with snags, but my previous company was the industry leader in market house cc and quality. Filibustering is not what we do and I take exception to you tarring all with the same brush, because you are just talking rubbish and have no real expertise or knowledge of volume house building.
At exchange my clients get more detail than you could imagine, 1000's of lines of spec and detail along with photo record of build, they get all relevant drawings. My clients keep coming back and most of them buy 100 plus units at a time.
Where you are sure your answer is no, you are totally, completely and explicitly wrong. There is a detailed 4 week process. But like I say, you think you know alot, in reality you know very little.
blueg33 said:
Mr Whippy said:
It wouldn’t double build time.
You don’t fix the important/difficult snags any way, you filibuster them away, and if there is a client with a hope they’ll get their way, you just offer a way out of the deal as at that point it’s cheaper just to sell to the next mug.
Do you provide a contract exchange document that shows what a client will get?
Ie, all plans, drawings, materials, etc, so they can exercise the caveats in the contracts to raise material changes/discrepancies?
Is opportunity provided in the contract terms to allow surveys/checks to ensure compliance by the client and their representatives?
I’m sure the answer is no.
But while housing is in such short supply and buyers are desperate for anything, builders will get away with selling stuff with myriad faults.
It wouldn't double it, but that was merely an example. The key point is balance.You don’t fix the important/difficult snags any way, you filibuster them away, and if there is a client with a hope they’ll get their way, you just offer a way out of the deal as at that point it’s cheaper just to sell to the next mug.
Do you provide a contract exchange document that shows what a client will get?
Ie, all plans, drawings, materials, etc, so they can exercise the caveats in the contracts to raise material changes/discrepancies?
Is opportunity provided in the contract terms to allow surveys/checks to ensure compliance by the client and their representatives?
I’m sure the answer is no.
But while housing is in such short supply and buyers are desperate for anything, builders will get away with selling stuff with myriad faults.
You have no idea how we deal with snags, but my previous company was the industry leader in market house cc and quality. Filibustering is not what we do and I take exception to you tarring all with the same brush, because you are just talking rubbish and have no real expertise or knowledge of volume house building.
At exchange my clients get more detail than you could imagine, 1000's of lines of spec and detail along with photo record of build, they get all relevant drawings. My clients keep coming back and most of them buy 100 plus units at a time.
Where you are sure your answer is no, you are totally, completely and explicitly wrong. There is a detailed 4 week process. But like I say, you think you know alot, in reality you know very little.
You’re selling hundreds of units (£10mill+ contracts) to a buyer so obviously you’ll have a detailed 4 week contracts process.
They’re business people, not emotional home owner buyers.
Why you’re even commenting about your builds on this thread is beyond me because it’s not direct to consumer is it?
And if some units you make are direct to home owners, then great, good for you.
Note how upset you are at my assertions, tarring all with the same brush. You are the exception and it’s upsetting isn’t it?
So how do you think the fairly numerous statistical exception home buyers feel when they buy a turd of a home?
They feel worse, because unlike you suffering from a bruised ego, these people are buying their *home*, often at great expense, and they’re basically expertly manoeuvred into being contractually cornered.
There is nothing, NOTHING, in these contracts, in the buyers interests.
No I have no real expertise, I think often that blinkers you to the reality “on the ground” experienced by actual consumers buying this stuff.
I’ve not met one person in the last four years who is impressed or happy with their new builds.
The usual response is just that this is what you get these days, could be worse, etc.
But when you’ve worked on stuff yourself, and know how good stuff can be with a little more consideration, it makes you realise how utterly lazy and shoddy most new builds are.
My snagger said my house was good for a new build.
It broadly is. But the builder still wouldn’t make two of my internal doors close.
Technically they’re in breach of BR.
They just kept wanting a joiner to tweak them. The door frames aren’t right, the studs aren’t right. The 1d offset is beyond spec.
The doors are too small for the frame size to meet the max gap around doors for fire rating.
No amount of fannying with hinges and packers will change it.
I get nowhere trying to explain this. They just lie and suggest it’s settling, or say the building regs don’t apply, etc.
This is a supposedly good new build, from someone who sees hundreds of new build houses, someone with a lot of expertise… and he said if there is one thing you get done, get the doors done… and my builder won’t.
Too much work. Which it is. Hugely disruptive.
It should have been right when it was put in. A simple check with a spirit level. Or a tape measure. Too much work for a joiner?
Honestly, it isn’t ‘mistakes’ it’s just complete and utter incompetence and idiocy.
I asked if these trades were told about their mistakes and they said no, because they need to keep their morale up
These people are out there, making houses, which end up being peoples very very expensive homes.
They’re not disposable cars, or mobile phones, or Ikea furniture… they’re £500,000+ homes that should last a lifetime, and they can’t even meet BR and no one checked them off… a paid for snagger had to spot them!
Yes, some builders sneak through the gaps and are good. Those being paid for by someone with a keen business eye no doubt.
The bulk product B2C stuff, hmmm. I’m still to be convinced.
And yes mistakes can/do happen… but I’ve yet to hear of one nicely/seamlessly resolved. It’s like getting blood from a stone on anything that requires actual work!
Zarco said:
_-XXXX-_ said:
Even the bricks have a larger tolerance than that.
https://www.imperialbricks.co.uk/guidance/dimensio...
Quite https://www.imperialbricks.co.uk/guidance/dimensio...
And the brick depth dimensional error will be halved, assuming you place bricks along their centre.
Length is balanced through mortar, as is height.
Indeed two parallel walls (assuming string lined), could be perfectly parallel at any point of measure if the outer faces are aligned, with the dimensional error being on the back faces.
Mr Whippy said:
No I have no real expertise
The door frames aren’t right, the studs aren’t right. The 1d offset is beyond spec.
The doors are too small for the frame size to meet the max gap around doors for fire rating.
No amount of fannying with hinges and packers will change it.
So by your own admission you have no experience yet spout sThe door frames aren’t right, the studs aren’t right. The 1d offset is beyond spec.
The doors are too small for the frame size to meet the max gap around doors for fire rating.
No amount of fannying with hinges and packers will change it.
te like they can easily build to within 1.6mm!Post a pic of your horrendous doors, most bashers use ready made frames with doors to match...
Mr Whippy said:
So you’re not building houses as homes to sell to owners are you?
Why you’re even commenting about your builds on this thread is beyond me because it’s not direct to consumer is it?
If it’s the same poster and I’m sure it is, he plugged his pre fab homes on another thread fairly recently.Why you’re even commenting about your builds on this thread is beyond me because it’s not direct to consumer is it?
As you say it has no bearing on the OP and his problems which I’m sure will all be sorted before he gets the keys but like I said it’s more stress and headaches for them when you don’t need it. The plot will be NHBC or a similar cover depending on the house builder.
_-XXXX-_ said:
Post a pic of your horrendous doors, most bashers use ready made frames with doors to match...
Pedantic but they’re not frames they’re linings and what you’re referring to are Hickman door sets which most main house builders now use, who are these bashers anyway?Edited by Promised Land on Sunday 19th March 17:39
Promised Land said:
If it’s the same poster and I’m sure it is, he plugged his pre fab homes on another thread fairly recently.
As you say it has no bearing on the OP and his problems which I’m sure will all be sorted before he gets the keys but like I said it’s more stress and headaches for them when you don’t need it. The plot will be NHBC or a similar cover depending on the house builder.
It is NHBC. I’m not sure what reassurance that gives any more tbh As you say it has no bearing on the OP and his problems which I’m sure will all be sorted before he gets the keys but like I said it’s more stress and headaches for them when you don’t need it. The plot will be NHBC or a similar cover depending on the house builder.
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