Trades daily rates
Discussion
clockworks said:
Does a blocklayer or roofer deserve the same as a non-partner GP or dentist?
Why not ? They work harder, in worse conditions, and will have most of their joint f
ked at the end of it. GP’s, if you can find one that’s any good don’t really do a ‘hard’ days work, do they ? Dentists? Don’t make me laugh !
While it’s always these type of professions that are always good for a virtual signal, there is no reason they deserve to earn more than a tradesman.
Aluminati said:
clockworks said:
Does a blocklayer or roofer deserve the same as a non-partner GP or dentist?
Why not ? They work harder, in worse conditions, and will have most of their joint fked at the end of it. GP’s, if you can find one that’s any good don’t really do a ‘hard’ days work, do they ? Dentists? Don’t make me laugh !
While it’s always these type of professions that are always good for a virtual signal, there is no reason they deserve to earn more than a tradesman.
But if a tradesman isn't charging £250 a day (and that was the figure I was quoting 2 years ago), then they may as well get a normal job. Like any business, they should be factoring in:
Vehicle cost
Vehicle Tax
Vehicle Insurance
Tradesman Insurance
Factoring tool cost against lifespan
Personal injury/health insurance
Then they need to work out how many days a year they will work (business being well).
Then they need to work out the salary they want to earn.
Then they need to work out how much profit they want to make (because otherwise they might as well go any work for someone else and avoid the effort/stress).
Build in a little contingency to account for bad customers/cancelled jobs/dry periods
They can then work out their required daily rate.
It's no different to running any other business - I think a lot of tradesman don't do this, and grossly undersell themselves. Others just about get by by copying others in the marketplace etc. Andy Mac (Gosforth Handyman) does a really good video explaining all of this...
If you are good at what you do, are reliable, presentable and do what you say you are going to do, you can charge a proper rate. If people think your expensive, find better customers.
The building industry (being unregulated) has so many "tradesman" who have no real practical experience, or an apprenticeship chucking out sub-standard work. They undercut people who know what they are doing and devalue what they do. For good quality workmanship, there are massive skill shortages. And day rate is irrelevant - anybody professional will be charging a cost for the job...if they are breaking down their day rate (unless sub-contracting), they are missing a trick.
And to the poster saying "if they do the work in 2 weeks instead of 3, they will make a huge profit". What if the job takes 4 weeks? If he finishes in 2 weeks, and you are happy with the work and it's as per the original quote, surely it's win win? Over the course of a year, I suspect it all works out pretty even in terms of jobs they overrun on and ones they finishes quicker.
Vehicle cost
Vehicle Tax
Vehicle Insurance
Tradesman Insurance
Factoring tool cost against lifespan
Personal injury/health insurance
Then they need to work out how many days a year they will work (business being well).
Then they need to work out the salary they want to earn.
Then they need to work out how much profit they want to make (because otherwise they might as well go any work for someone else and avoid the effort/stress).
Build in a little contingency to account for bad customers/cancelled jobs/dry periods
They can then work out their required daily rate.
It's no different to running any other business - I think a lot of tradesman don't do this, and grossly undersell themselves. Others just about get by by copying others in the marketplace etc. Andy Mac (Gosforth Handyman) does a really good video explaining all of this...
If you are good at what you do, are reliable, presentable and do what you say you are going to do, you can charge a proper rate. If people think your expensive, find better customers.
The building industry (being unregulated) has so many "tradesman" who have no real practical experience, or an apprenticeship chucking out sub-standard work. They undercut people who know what they are doing and devalue what they do. For good quality workmanship, there are massive skill shortages. And day rate is irrelevant - anybody professional will be charging a cost for the job...if they are breaking down their day rate (unless sub-contracting), they are missing a trick.
And to the poster saying "if they do the work in 2 weeks instead of 3, they will make a huge profit". What if the job takes 4 weeks? If he finishes in 2 weeks, and you are happy with the work and it's as per the original quote, surely it's win win? Over the course of a year, I suspect it all works out pretty even in terms of jobs they overrun on and ones they finishes quicker.
The way I see it, most able-bodied and reasonably practical people could, with a bit of help, do most of the tasks that builders or labourers do. Probably take longer doing it, may make a few mistakes, but get the job done. Back in the day, I read books to learn stuff. Easier now, with videos on YouTube, etc.
You wouldn't watch some videos and do dentistry, or surgery, or sort out out your own prescriptions.
Of course there are exceptions - people who pull their own teeth, or bodge building work, but generally it's easier to learn trade stuff than professional stuff.
Until recently, the only things around the house that I wouldn't do are roofing and plastering.
Physically not up to it now, but I'll be doing what I'm capable of.
Not everyone is capable or willing to learn. Some can earn more doing their day job than they would save by DIY-ing. Fair play if they are happy to pay £30+ an hour.
You wouldn't watch some videos and do dentistry, or surgery, or sort out out your own prescriptions.
Of course there are exceptions - people who pull their own teeth, or bodge building work, but generally it's easier to learn trade stuff than professional stuff.
Until recently, the only things around the house that I wouldn't do are roofing and plastering.
Physically not up to it now, but I'll be doing what I'm capable of.
Not everyone is capable or willing to learn. Some can earn more doing their day job than they would save by DIY-ing. Fair play if they are happy to pay £30+ an hour.
Condi said:
Aluminati said:
While it’s always these type of professions that are always good for a virtual signal, there is no reason they deserve to earn more than a tradesman.
Maybe the 7 years of university required to start the profession? They could have gone into to a trade instead. Doesn’t mean they’re worthy of more money ‘because university’.
Square Leg said:
Condi said:
Aluminati said:
While it’s always these type of professions that are always good for a virtual signal, there is no reason they deserve to earn more than a tradesman.
Maybe the 7 years of university required to start the profession? They could have gone into to a trade instead. Doesn’t mean they’re worthy of more money ‘because university’.
If a tradesman is good at what he does ( And i don’t include the checkatrade bodgers) they will always earn good money, but there is a shorter window to do it. One of my lads drew 4K last week,( before tax) why ? Because he grafts for it. And I love to see it, because he earned me 8.
Condi said:
Aluminati said:
While it’s always these type of professions that are always good for a virtual signal, there is no reason they deserve to earn more than a tradesman.
Maybe the 7 years of university required to start the profession? I started out specialising in internal & external door fitting in the 90s and was getting £350-400 a day, so certainly dont think £300 a day is prohibitive now.
Aventador 700 said:
Condi said:
Aluminati said:
While it’s always these type of professions that are always good for a virtual signal, there is no reason they deserve to earn more than a tradesman.
Maybe the 7 years of university required to start the profession? I started out specialising in internal & external door fitting in the 90s and was getting £350-400 a day, so certainly dont think £300 a day is prohibitive now.
Square Leg said:
That’s their choice.
They could have gone into to a trade instead. Doesn’t mean they’re worthy of more money ‘because university’.
Yes and no. Not "because university" but "because skill set" and "because qualifications". They (the government) don't allow simply anyone to practice as a dentist, and yet anyone can be a builder/groundsman without any formal training or qualifications and some without the skills to do it either! They could have gone into to a trade instead. Doesn’t mean they’re worthy of more money ‘because university’.
Condi said:
Square Leg said:
That’s their choice.
They could have gone into to a trade instead. Doesn’t mean they’re worthy of more money ‘because university’.
Yes and no. Not "because university" but "because skill set" and "because qualifications". They (the government) don't allow simply anyone to practice as a dentist, and yet anyone can be a builder/groundsman without any formal training or qualifications and some without the skills to do it either! They could have gone into to a trade instead. Doesn’t mean they’re worthy of more money ‘because university’.
And the training involves learning from the old boy that teaches, who spent 40 years plus being the best.
I've been in the trades since I was 15 now 35 and earn a very good salary as a wood floor fitter but I genuinely won't be able to keep grafting like I do and earning what I do for much longer. My back has been giving me trouble since I was 30, my knees ache, I even get pains in my elbows.
Condi said:
Square Leg said:
That’s their choice.
They could have gone into to a trade instead. Doesn’t mean they’re worthy of more money ‘because university’.
Yes and no. Not "because university" but "because skill set" and "because qualifications". They (the government) don't allow simply anyone to practice as a dentist, and yet anyone can be a builder/groundsman without any formal training or qualifications and some without the skills to do it either! They could have gone into to a trade instead. Doesn’t mean they’re worthy of more money ‘because university’.
Well, you can, but you’ll possibly end up in prison.
I’d be quite happy for the government to introduce formal qualifications and training for all trades - but then prices would probably be higher than they are now.
Another project said:
I've been in the trades since I was 15 now 35 and earn a very good salary as a wood floor fitter but I genuinely won't be able to keep grafting like I do and earning what I do for much longer. My back has been giving me trouble since I was 30, my knees ache, I even get pains in my elbows.
Quite.In 2 years time I’ll have done 40 years, and my body is similarly knackered.
I’d like to enjoy retirement.
Square Leg said:
You can’t be an electrician or gas installer without qualifications, formal training or skill set.
Well, you can, but you’ll possibly end up in prison.
I’d be quite happy for the government to introduce formal qualifications and training for all trades - but then prices would probably be higher than they are now.
The industry needs a shake up though - lot’s of companies offer a 2 week fast track qualification for electrics or gas etc. It’s no sign of quality.Well, you can, but you’ll possibly end up in prison.
I’d be quite happy for the government to introduce formal qualifications and training for all trades - but then prices would probably be higher than they are now.
In parts of Europe and the US you have to be a registered tradesman - I think the UK needs to explore this. Heard a good story on Robin Clevetts fix radio. A chap was working in the timber yard and one day he wasn’t there. He asked had he left and the answer was “yes, he has decided to become a self employed carpenter”. No formal training, no experience etc. But that’s the problem in the UK, it’s unregulated.
Nothing wrong with a tradesperson warning a decent wage; everyone has a right to a family life, to put food on the table, to be able to provide.
That being said, some fundamental differences between the skill set and abilities needed between bricklaying and being a surgeon, or GP. One requires a high level of academic skill, knowledge retention and recall, plus extensive training. One is more focused on learning muscle memory, and one particular skill. Both have their value and neither should be denigrated.
There is also an aspect of “danger money” or responsibility pay. A GP sees, let’s assume a 9hr day, 30 patients in that day. They have to make sure they appropriately treat all 30 every time. Failure means potentially someone could die. Relatively high stakes.
Bricklayer could of course in a very bad scenario cause risk to life and limb, but likely much less of a risk and across far fewer people.
End of the day nothing stopping the brickie becoming a doctor and the doctor becoming a brickie. If it was easier everyone would be at it!
That being said, some fundamental differences between the skill set and abilities needed between bricklaying and being a surgeon, or GP. One requires a high level of academic skill, knowledge retention and recall, plus extensive training. One is more focused on learning muscle memory, and one particular skill. Both have their value and neither should be denigrated.
There is also an aspect of “danger money” or responsibility pay. A GP sees, let’s assume a 9hr day, 30 patients in that day. They have to make sure they appropriately treat all 30 every time. Failure means potentially someone could die. Relatively high stakes.
Bricklayer could of course in a very bad scenario cause risk to life and limb, but likely much less of a risk and across far fewer people.
End of the day nothing stopping the brickie becoming a doctor and the doctor becoming a brickie. If it was easier everyone would be at it!
Pheo said:
Nothing wrong with a tradesperson warning a decent wage; everyone has a right to a family life, to put food on the table, to be able to provide.
That being said, some fundamental differences between the skill set and abilities needed between bricklaying and being a surgeon, or GP. One requires a high level of academic skill, knowledge retention and recall, plus extensive training. One is more focused on learning muscle memory, and one particular skill. Both have their value and neither should be denigrated.
There is also an aspect of “danger money” or responsibility pay. A GP sees, let’s assume a 9hr day, 30 patients in that day. They have to make sure they appropriately treat all 30 every time. Failure means potentially someone could die. Relatively high stakes.
Bricklayer could of course in a very bad scenario cause risk to life and limb, but likely much less of a risk and across far fewer people.
End of the day nothing stopping the brickie becoming a doctor and the doctor becoming a brickie. If it was easier everyone would be at it!
The GP slings it over to the nearest A&E, let’s get real here. The NHS is worth 2 tenths of fThat being said, some fundamental differences between the skill set and abilities needed between bricklaying and being a surgeon, or GP. One requires a high level of academic skill, knowledge retention and recall, plus extensive training. One is more focused on learning muscle memory, and one particular skill. Both have their value and neither should be denigrated.
There is also an aspect of “danger money” or responsibility pay. A GP sees, let’s assume a 9hr day, 30 patients in that day. They have to make sure they appropriately treat all 30 every time. Failure means potentially someone could die. Relatively high stakes.
Bricklayer could of course in a very bad scenario cause risk to life and limb, but likely much less of a risk and across far fewer people.
End of the day nothing stopping the brickie becoming a doctor and the doctor becoming a brickie. If it was easier everyone would be at it!
kall, maybe because I didn’t clap for them. I, and many trades have gone home with their blisters bleeding, the skin on my hands so thick I have to cut the calluses off with a Stanley blade. Do I have any debt ? No. Do the bank own my house ? No. Do I YouTube vids how to save 20p ? No.Square Leg said:
Another project said:
I've been in the trades since I was 15 now 35 and earn a very good salary as a wood floor fitter but I genuinely won't be able to keep grafting like I do and earning what I do for much longer. My back has been giving me trouble since I was 30, my knees ache, I even get pains in my elbows.
Quite.In 2 years time I’ll have done 40 years, and my body is similarly knackered.
I’d like to enjoy retirement.
My 2 sons work for the company as painters, and hopefully they will grow the company when I hand it to them in 7 years.
Good painters and joiners are like hens teeth.
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