I'm going to try doing a patio
Discussion
After getting sick of the usual tradesmen no shows, obscene quotes and stories of poor quality work despite claims of "being the best". I've decided to give this job a go myself.
The job being, laying around 40sqm of patio at lawn level directly behind our house.
I'm fairly handy when it comes to DIY jobs but I've never done any gluing stuff together with cement type work. Unless you count sticking a few coping stones back on a wall (which later fell off again). So it's going to be a steep learning curve... hopefully with some help and tips from the PH hive mind.
Photos of the area below. Not decided on what type of "slab" to put down. Seems porcelain tiles are very popular these days but I'm a bit concerned they'll be slippery, might crack easier, might be more difficult to cut???
Highlighted area where the patio will go
The thought of tackling this manhole cover is giving me nightmares
The job being, laying around 40sqm of patio at lawn level directly behind our house.
I'm fairly handy when it comes to DIY jobs but I've never done any gluing stuff together with cement type work. Unless you count sticking a few coping stones back on a wall (which later fell off again). So it's going to be a steep learning curve... hopefully with some help and tips from the PH hive mind.
Photos of the area below. Not decided on what type of "slab" to put down. Seems porcelain tiles are very popular these days but I'm a bit concerned they'll be slippery, might crack easier, might be more difficult to cut???
Highlighted area where the patio will go
The thought of tackling this manhole cover is giving me nightmares
Edited by nunpuncher on Monday 15th April 16:59
agent006 said:
We're about to do the same. My wife is doing all the planning and her bible is pavingexpert.com
We're going to get a local man&digger outfit to do the groundworks, to our levels, and then we'll do all the paving.
Yeah, I had a quick scan through some of that site so I have the basics in my mind ie depths needed for a good base etc. I've also found a local guy that will come in with a mini digger and clear the space to a depth of 150mm and take all the rubble away for £500.We're going to get a local man&digger outfit to do the groundworks, to our levels, and then we'll do all the paving.
I'd probably have given the digging out a go myself but getting rid of the soil/rubble is the bigger issue.
nunpuncher said:
I'd probably have given the digging out a go myself but getting rid of the soil/rubble is the bigger issue.
A bit each week in your land waste bin.
Takes a while, but is free!
Yes, paving expert is your friend here, follow the advice and you will wonder why you have not got stuck in before.
Your wife will consider that you are a hero and will willingly massage all your stiff musles for you.
nunpuncher said:
Yeah, I had a quick scan through some of that site so I have the basics in my mind ie depths needed for a good base etc. I've also found a local guy that will come in with a mini digger and clear the space to a depth of 150mm and take all the rubble away for £500.
I'd probably have given the digging out a go myself but getting rid of the soil/rubble is the bigger issue.
From experience the site prep is the worst/longest part. I'd be chewing their arm off for £500 if that includes removal as well. It's always way more material than you think and if your ground is laden with rocks it's really hard going doing it with a shovel... If you're following paving expert I don't think there is much more to it. 100mm MOT sub base, whacker plate it 5-10 times over (in intervals when laying the 100mm if you can), then a 40mm bed of 6to1 sharp sand and cement. I mortared with a dry sand and building cement mix. The brush in products are a max 2year solution, which is then a nightmare to repoint.I'd probably have given the digging out a go myself but getting rid of the soil/rubble is the bigger issue.
Also I'd recommend a slurry on the back of the slabs to help it stay stuck over time. SBR and cement mixed to a paste works very nicely.
Yegap said:
nunpuncher said:
Yeah, I had a quick scan through some of that site so I have the basics in my mind ie depths needed for a good base etc. I've also found a local guy that will come in with a mini digger and clear the space to a depth of 150mm and take all the rubble away for £500.
I'd probably have given the digging out a go myself but getting rid of the soil/rubble is the bigger issue.
From experience the site prep is the worst/longest part. I'd be chewing their arm off for £500 if that includes removal as well. It's always way more material than you think and if your ground is laden with rocks it's really hard going doing it with a shovel... If you're following paving expert I don't think there is much more to it. 100mm MOT sub base, whacker plate it 5-10 times over (in intervals when laying the 100mm if you can), then a 40mm bed of 6to1 sharp sand and cement. I mortared with a dry sand and building cement mix. The brush in products are a max 2year solution, which is then a nightmare to repoint.I'd probably have given the digging out a go myself but getting rid of the soil/rubble is the bigger issue.
Also I'd recommend a slurry on the back of the slabs to help it stay stuck over time. SBR and cement mixed to a paste works very nicely.
Dry bed sounds easier so I was thinking about putting some edging in between the patio and grass to do it this way.
Pick up a second-hand bridge tile cutter. The one I picked up was about £50 I think it's branded virtex and is orange. I read horror stories about it taking 45 minutes to cut through of 20 mm porceline tile. It went through a 900 mm long tile in approximately a minute and a half. The cut was virtually perfect and had I doubled my time it would have been perfect. Make sure it's got the water feed for no dust. My slabs are 1200 mm long but there will only be a few tiles that need that cut and they'll just have to be done by hand with a nine inch diamond blade.
nunpuncher said:
So did you just lay the flags (just learned that's what they're called) on a dry bed?
Dry bed sounds easier so I was thinking about putting some edging in between the patio and grass to do it this way.
Nah, dry mix for the pointing but mixed water in with the 6to1 sand & cement (fairly firm mix though).Dry bed sounds easier so I was thinking about putting some edging in between the patio and grass to do it this way.
I would say it's a much much easier task over 40sqm on your first attempt if you can rope in another pair of hands. You'll definitely need to hire a cement mixer as well.
Mixing cement can be a real ballache on the diy front.
When I laid a patio many moons ago I dig out by hand, barrowed the hardcore and used a rented whacker plate to form the base. I then mixed the cement and sand dry and spread it out around an inch or so in thickness and levelled to strings but only over one half of the patio. I then sprayed it with the hose and kept it well misted over the next 48 hours. My belief being that cement is a chemical reaction that needs plenty of water just leaving as dry mix means it never properly cures. When the first half could be walked on I just repeated over the remainder. I put the slabs down with a skim of wet cement.
The patio still stands but I'm not sure I'd be so brave with porcelain tiles due to the need for much more perfect laying for the proper finish.
When I laid a patio many moons ago I dig out by hand, barrowed the hardcore and used a rented whacker plate to form the base. I then mixed the cement and sand dry and spread it out around an inch or so in thickness and levelled to strings but only over one half of the patio. I then sprayed it with the hose and kept it well misted over the next 48 hours. My belief being that cement is a chemical reaction that needs plenty of water just leaving as dry mix means it never properly cures. When the first half could be walked on I just repeated over the remainder. I put the slabs down with a skim of wet cement.
The patio still stands but I'm not sure I'd be so brave with porcelain tiles due to the need for much more perfect laying for the proper finish.
Why not ask the digger guy to track in your sub base after digging out? Might be £200 well spent then you can concentrate on the laying.
Dry mix is ok for council flags but no good for a standard patio. Use sharp sand and buying a 2nd hand mixer off marketplace and selling it afterwards takes away the time pressure and you should see the money back.
Evolution do a good Celtic disk cutter you can pick up for around £100 and makes it much safer than a grinder, again can sell it afterwards.
Dry mix is ok for council flags but no good for a standard patio. Use sharp sand and buying a 2nd hand mixer off marketplace and selling it afterwards takes away the time pressure and you should see the money back.
Evolution do a good Celtic disk cutter you can pick up for around £100 and makes it much safer than a grinder, again can sell it afterwards.
Yes, I've been keeping an eye on FB marketplace for a cement mixer. I'll hire a whacker plate as it's a bit easier to estimate how long I'd need that for.
I probably could get digger man to throw the base down but i think I'm going to have to build up around the manhole as the ground sinks slightly in that area. I've calculated that I'm going to need around 9 tonnes of type 1. Will be roping my son and a friend in to help.
So what are the thoughts on say a sandstone slab v porcelain? Is porcelain the way to go these days? I've always thought of it as being for indoors or for round a pool in a hot country.
Also. Weed barrier or geotextile. Should I be using one? Pavingexpert is pretty non committal on this detail.
I probably could get digger man to throw the base down but i think I'm going to have to build up around the manhole as the ground sinks slightly in that area. I've calculated that I'm going to need around 9 tonnes of type 1. Will be roping my son and a friend in to help.
So what are the thoughts on say a sandstone slab v porcelain? Is porcelain the way to go these days? I've always thought of it as being for indoors or for round a pool in a hot country.
Also. Weed barrier or geotextile. Should I be using one? Pavingexpert is pretty non committal on this detail.
Edited by nunpuncher on Tuesday 16th April 05:31
nunpuncher said:
I probably could get digger man to throw the base down but i think I'm going to have to build up around the manhole as the ground sinks slightly in that area. I've calculated that I'm going to need around 9 tonnes of type 1. Will be roping my son and a friend in to help.
However the material goes in, compacting it (and getting the right levels) is key. 9t is roughly half a wagon load of material. If you can get it tipped pretty much where you need it, then spreading with excavator is easy.
Bagged material (remember “tonne bags” are usually bulk bags weighing more like 800kg) can sometimes be appealing but if you have to dig it all out it is hard work (buy a short necked shovel). Unless you can get them where you need them, suspend them from excavator and slit them, loose tipped might actually be easier.
The suggestion to get the excavator driver to track over it is well intentioned but you won’t get anywhere near the level of compaction or flatness of surface doing that as you would with a whacker (which is neither expensive nor difficult to use).
Regarding geotex, presumably you thinking about it for stabilisation/separation rather than weed control?
nunpuncher said:
So what are the thoughts on say a sandstone slab v porcelain? Is porcelain the way to go these days? I've always thought of it as being for indoors or for round a pool in a hot country.
It's going to depend on a lot of factors. Porcelain seems very on trend and in some regards is like an STD that's been brought back from a holiday in the sun like prawn with ketchup and mayo and served in a apocalypse proof glass was or building a cupboard to s
t in for the bedroom. Then at the other end of the culture scale it has opened up the opportunity to create more interesting spaces for example, tiled areas within gravels or hoggin, under wooden structures for seating, faux courtyard styles etc. The key is to work with what you have and try and work in what you want sympathetically, do you want one large slab across the rear, will trendy tiles clash against the architecture of the house, do you want to break up the paved areas to make the look less monolithic, do you have local stones that can be incorporated to tie the look in, it looks like the rear walls are painted white but are the roof tiles slates, do you therefore blend the patio using the same material.
It's all very subjective and there is no right or wrong. And only the opinion of those who live there matter as it is their space.
Personally, I'm not a fan of the whole mass patio effect across the rear of a house once it's a bit wider than a Victorian terrace. I think it starts to trend away from twee towards municipal space quite quickly. I think porcelain can look like Doric columns on a static very easily if not careful, a bit Dubai chic and linked to whole sex pond/bifold/pub/gym thing. But so can stone flags, Indian sandstone has been badly abused over the years to create some truly abysmal 'cribs'.
Either material can be uplifting and wonderful or make you despair for the future of mankind. But even then you are the onlooker and your opinion doesn't matter, all that matters is that the people who live there gain happiness and that it isn't spoiling any relevant neighbour's view.
I'd break the space up and use differing materials. It's the zone between house and garden and I like to make that space more interesting than just slabbing. And it is also far easier to make islands perfect than an entire space and it also allows for bit more extravagance in tile design as the areas are smaller.
Initially I had thought it was for weed control but reading about it it does seem like it's for stabilizarion/seperation. Will I need it compacting down on to soil? This house was built early 60s on old farm land and was one of the first to be built so next to no rock and rubble in the ground. However, it is Scotland so very wet but drainage seems good.
Unfortunately getting the base tipped in place is impossible. Hopefully the HIAB can plonk bulk bags over the fence from the lane at the back otherwise it's going to be a lot of long walks with a wheelbarrow.
Unfortunately getting the base tipped in place is impossible. Hopefully the HIAB can plonk bulk bags over the fence from the lane at the back otherwise it's going to be a lot of long walks with a wheelbarrow.
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