Feeding RAW meat and bones to your dog

[66comanche]

Jasandjules said:

I would wind her down to one meal a day, but slowly. I wouldn't do this at the same time as switching to raw though, I'd rather not mess about with her routine tooooo much too quickly, so get her onto raw over a period of weeks, then thereafter begin the process of switching her to one meal.

Apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick somehow, but are you are advising that OP feeds his four month old puppy once a day? (or does so soon)

[Superficial]

bexVN said:

^^ You were doing so well until your last paragraph

Vets don't actually worry about choking as much as damage to intestines.

And contrary to popular belief vets don't get back handers from pet food companies, expect for maybe a very occasional free bag of food (if you're lucky) the mark up on pet food is minimal.

I do not stop people feeding raw but I do advise they research carefully and be aware of the hygiene needed.

I didn't mention choking with regards to vets, I think the choking concern is one mainly shared by owners, not vets.

Let's just say there are clearly incentives offered to vets to encourage them to stock and sell certain brands. Added on to that, the fact that vets nutritional education is largely provided by said pet food companies means that vets themselves are hardly unbiased. I'd never rely on a vet to offer nutritional advice for any of my pets.

I think feeding your dog any type of food should be carefully researched, you only have to look at the likes of bakers to see what crap can go into kibble. Likewise, I'd hope anyone who owns pets practice a good standard of hygiene, after all nasty contaminations such as salmonella have been found in kibble too. http://efoodalert.net/2012/05/03/contaminated-kibb...

Think we may have to agree to disagree on this one

R300will said:

Well we have to know about it because a lot of owners aren't able to regulate how much food to give to their animals now and the obesity level is rising ever faster. So hopefully vets in general are more clued up on various diets for dogs.

I'm not saying you shouldn't tell your vet you feed RAW, just that you should take what they say about it with a pinch of salt. I've found smiling sweetly with the occasional nod is the fastest way to get through their hills/ science plan spiel

[R300will]

Superficial said:

Let's just say there are clearly incentives offered to vets to encourage them to stock and sell certain brands. Added on to that, the fact that vets nutritional education is largely provided by said pet food companies means that vets themselves are hardly unbiased. I'd never rely on a vet to offer nutritional advice for any of my pets.

Think we may have to agree to disagree on this one

No it isn't, at least not nowadays anyway, because we're having lectures on animal obesity and how to calculate the energy requirements of various animals in various situations (stage of pregnancy, lactation, work load etc) Also how the requirements of growing animals change over time and therefore how to advise owners on the types of food that will suit their pet best throughout their lifetime. If certain brands meet these requirements then why not reccommend them?

R300will said:

Well we have to know about it because a lot of owners aren't able to regulate how much food to give to their animals now and the obesity level is rising ever faster. So hopefully vets in general are more clued up on various diets for dogs.

Superficial said:

I'm not saying you shouldn't tell your vet you feed RAW, just that you should take what they say about it with a pinch of salt. I've found smiling sweetly with the occasional nod is the fastest way to get through their hills/ science plan spiel

Chances are your vet will know much more than some people on a doog food forum or whatever so i would advise that you take them a bit more seriously as there may be things that hills or whatever can provide your dog with that raw food cannot.

Edited by R300will on Tuesday 10th July 14:50

[Flat6er]

Phooey said:

Lets put it this way, i don't think we'll make it to Britain's Got Talent




Toilet training is proving difficult - she will quite happily pee in the house, although the back door can be open. She will pee outside, but prefers to do it indoors


Puppy nipping can be a pita, literally.

Not really had any issues with food and fussiness. About half hour ago i held the Sunday Joint (Lamb bone) for her whilst she rips some meat off it (I stayed with her because the bone was cooked and it isn't advised to give them cooked bones). She absolutely loved tearing away it, and at one point snatched it off me and legged it around the house with it. I had to rugby tackle her and wrestle it off her, much to some growling!


Lovely dog though. She loves going for long walks, and the other day we bought a 10m and 15m tracker line for on the fields. Well worth investing in imo

Sorry, forgot I asked this.

They are stuborn buggers aint they.

Toilet training. I can not empthasise enough how she needs praise, like its the best thing on earth when she goes outside. Treats cuddles, play. All of the above. As for the nipping, we found that when he needed a number 2 he would get anxious and a bit bitey.

Keep on with the long line. I promise it works. and use the time to play the recall game every 10 mins. We are at 18 months and can now take him out for walks without him being attached to us now. Its a revalation and makes walking a pleasure rather than a chore.

Regarding the raw meat I think I we are going to continue with the complete dry, and use raw as an occasional treat. Ours has a tendancy to bury bones, and the garden is bad enough.

[Superficial]

R300will said:

No it isn't, at least not nowadays anyway, because we're having lectures on animal obesity and how to calculate the energy requirements of various animals in various situations (stage of pregnancy, lactation, work load etc) Also how the requirements of growing animals change over time and therefore how to advise owners on the types of food that will suit their pet best throughout their lifetime. If certain brands meet these requirements then why not reccommend them?

Chances are your vet will know much more than some people on a doog food forum or whatever so i would advise that you take them a bit more seriously as there may be things that hills or whatever can provide your dog with that raw food cannot.

Edited by R300will on Tuesday 10th July 14:50

You've missed my point completely, when these lectures are provided by the dog food companies themselves they have a vested interest in convincing and educating vets about their own products. They are not going to recommend RAW food as an option because that won't line their pockets. I'm shocked at how basic the things you've listed are being taught too, truly shocked. That's the most basic level of education that I'd expect pet owners to practice themselves.

Fact is my vet knows far too little about nutrition, and far too much about Hills (like I've already said, so predictable it hardly deserves a second thought). Please don't think I'm ignorant enough to feed my pets based on what one forum has to offer, my choice is based on many factors including but not limited to research, recommendations from people who actually understand pet nutrition, experience of others I know and most importantly my own experience with my pets. Yes, hills can provide a lot that RAW food cannot, all of which I wouldn't want anywhere near my pets; corn, fillers, animal by-products (all the yucky bits humans don't want to eat), ash, fiber and more - all listed on hills very own website.

This website makes all my points much more succinctly than I ever could.
http://www.rawfoodvets.com/articles/article2

[bexVN]

Superficial you just seem to be deliberately antagonistic. It's quite obvious that r300will was giving examples. Nutrition lectures go far deeper. I was taught as a vet nurse over 20yrs ago and had more taught and it was not sponsored by any pet food companies. You're also in a dream world if you really believe most pet owners are going to understand even the above (that's not meant to be rude to pet owners it's just how it is)

[Phooey]

Ok, a little worried. Gave her a chicken quarter tonight. She ate most of the thicker part slowly, then when I went near her, she swallowed the rest of it WHOLE. She didn't choke, but how will it pass through her?

[Jasandjules]

Phooey said:

Ok, a little worried. Gave her a chicken quarter tonight. She ate most of the thicker part slowly, then when I went near her, she swallowed the rest of it WHOLE. She didn't choke, but how will it pass through her?

Her stomach acid is very powerful. It will just take a little longer to break down in her intestines, but dogs process food quickly. It will just be "normal"...

I am also guessing she gulped it down as she feared you would take it away from her?

[Phooey]

Jasandjules said:

I am also guessing she gulped it down as she feared you would take it away from her?

Yup! Daft bogger knecked it when I said "give"


She seems well in herself

Cheers

[Superficial]

bexVN said:

Superficial you just seem to be deliberately antagonistic. It's quite obvious that r300will was giving examples. Nutrition lectures go far deeper. I was taught as a vet nurse over 20yrs ago and had more taught and it was not sponsored by any pet food companies. You're also in a dream world if you really believe most pet owners are going to understand even the above (that's not meant to be rude to pet owners it's just how it is)

I don't think that's fair to say at all, I've simply replied to the points r300 has made. I am genuinely shocked that things so basic are being taught, this plethora of complicated issues you mention didn't appear in r300's post, and I was replying to him. You have already admitted in this thread that backhanders do exist between vets and food suppliers, which adds even more conviction to the argument that vets are not unbiased. I imagine the senior members of the practice would be keen to hide this fact from customers, and even staff such as yourself, as it really discredits them. Just because you are only aware of freebie products being given doesn't mean other incentives are not being offered.

What you said about pet owners does sound rude if I'm honest, they aren't a sub form of human being. Yes, there will always be a minority who will feed their dogs whatever crap out of ignorance but for the most part I think we take a keen interest in what our pets are fed and how it suits them. With the massive impact food can have on pets from their behaviour to their looks it doesn't surprise me that what we feed our pets is usually a hot topic of conversation when I'm mixing with friends, some of whom I know from flyball and shelters, others are just normal pet owners who aren't as actively involved in the animal circles.

I think to say most pet owners don't understand such basic things as the ratio of food to exercise, varying food dependent on age and pregnancy is completely underestimating pet owners. That sort of information is so basic and often applies to humans as well as pets so even people new to pet ownership generally have a good idea. People have a vested interest in keeping their pets healthy as there is no NHS for animals.

Now, not wanting to ruin the OP's thread I think I'll make this my last post about anything vet related, I think I've made it quite clear where I stand

[bexVN]

I deal with people talking about food for their sets day in and day out and have done for 20yrs and people who buy 15kg of dry food for £10 are not in the minority, finances, busy lives and ease of buying all play their part.

I wish more people took an interest and in our practice we work hard to encourage that people look at what they are buying and if they want to feed raw I will not stop them.

I love how I'm being rude when you obviously don't feel you are being the same to a profession.

I hope this change in diet works for his dog, though I was concerned to note the puppies reaction to his owner causing pup to swallow food whole, hope that settles down.

[SGirl]

As an aside - we've fed our dog Natural Instinct for most of the time she's been with us.

She was a rescue, and when we brought her home at the age of about 14 weeks she was having trouble with diarrhoea and eye-wateringly smelly wind. This continued for weeks. At the time she was on the dry mix which she'd been getting from the rescue centre, so we tried her on a variety of supermarket-type puppy meats mixed in with her dry mix. The diarrhoea would clear up for a day or so, then it'd come back. Vomiting was another problem - it wasn't unusual for her to get to enjoy her food twice.

I won 10kg of Natural Instinct food in a raffle, and I spoke to the manufacturers because I was concerned about feeding it alone and taking her off the dry mix. They were very good, talked me through the notion of feeding raw meat and told me what was in their products. They even invited me over to their factory to see the production process, but so far I've not taken them up on that!

So for about a year now, she's been on a Natural Instinct diet, supplemented with bones (either frozen from NI or fresh from the butchers), pigs' ears and the occasional treat. Her tummy trouble has cleared up completely, she no longer clears rooms with her stinkiness, what she produces tends to be small and kind of crumbly (and is therefore easy to pick up), she's got bags of energy and she's shiny and very healthy.

But more to the point, she loves it. When we fed the dry/supermarket meat mix, she'd come to look for her food and would take ages over it. Since she's been on the natural food, she actively comes to look for me when it's food time and would happily devour her dinner several times over if I'd let her.

So I'd certainly recommend Natural Instinct. It's raw meat, but balanced with other stuff like carrots. I'll certainly be feeding it to our dog in future, and to any other dogs we might end up with.

[Phooey]

SGirl said:

Natural Instinct

Hi SGirl, when we first had our pup her toilet habits were exactly the same - firm one day, but diarrhea the next. The breeder sent her with a box of Baxsters, which we used for a week or 2 before being advised to bin it! We then fed her on cooked chicken breasts, rice, and potatoes. This firmed her up within 3or4 days. We are currently using James Wellbeloved, which she does like, but i would rather supplement it with fresh, raw foods, rather than give her kibble every day.

That natural Instinct stuff looks interesting, although admittedly i have only had a quick look at the website and products.

If you don't mind me asking, what dog/s do you have (size) and how much of the NI do you feed, and roughly how much do you think it costs to feed your dog per week (assuming you only feed the NI?). I'm curious as to the cost of the NI foods if we were to switch to it permanently for our Beagle. Buying in bulk and storing in a chest freezer wouldn't be a problem.

Thanks

eta we plan to add another dog in 6 months to a year - possibly a Vizsla

[SGirl]

Hiya Phooey,

Yes, we went down the chicken/rice route with our dog as well, it worked well for a couple of days and then straight back to the problems when she was back on her normal diet.

We have a lurcher. She's about 28 kg at the moment (still growing!), and they recommend that you feed a dog of her size 500-700 g a day. She gets 500 g, because we supplement her diet with other bits and pieces as well. So that's 1x 1kg box every 2 days. A 1 kg box is anywhere between £2.85 and about £3.85, IIRC. Postage is £9 no matter how much you order, and a few pet shops seem to be stocking it now if you want to avoid the postage charge. I'd estimate we spend about £20 a week on food for the dog, maybe a bit more if I buy one of their boxes of frozen bones instead of getting them fresh (and free!) from the butcher.

They do two "types" of food - normal, and Working Dog. The Working Dog ones contain a slightly different balance of nutrients, but they're cheaper because there's no VAT on them. I've tried both, I've not noticed any major difference in Poppy's energy levels, and they both look exactly the same in the box!

They sell stuff like chicken carcasses and lambs' heads as well, I've not tried those yet though.

If you do decide to go for it, please drop me a line first because they have an "introduce a friend" scheme so we can both get a fiver off. They have an offer on 12x 1 kg boxes of Working Dog Chicken at the moment, looks like a very good deal! Just got to persuade the dog she's only getting chicken for a while though. They run offers occasionally, they're always very good value when they do. Well worth looking out for.

BTW, I ought to add that I have no links with the company at all, I'm just a very happy customer! Or rather, the dog is.

[jgtv]

Seen my dog catch and eat a pigeon! Found the feathers round the garden to suggest she's done it more than once, never had a problem with her afterwards, in fact the only time I have ever had issues with her after eating something was when she stole a chicken that was defrosting and she eat it so quick she musst have given herself "brain freeze" and was not happy.

[R300will]

Superficial said:

You have already admitted in this thread that backhanders do exist between vets and food suppliers, which adds even more conviction to the argument that vets are not unbiased. I imagine the senior members of the practice would be keen to hide this fact from customers, and even staff such as yourself, as it really discredits them. Just because you are only aware of freebie products being given doesn't mean other incentives are not being offered.

Personally i would never offer one brand of food to an owner if it wasn't the best available for their pet, even if the company offered me a couple of quid to do it. Odds are i'd be making anough money anyway not to need these 'backhanders' if they even exist.

Superficial said:

I think to say most pet owners don't understand such basic things as the ratio of food to exercise, varying food dependent on age and pregnancy is completely underestimating pet owners. That sort of information is so basic and often applies to humans as well as pets so even people new to pet ownership generally have a good idea. People have a vested interest in keeping their pets healthy as there is no NHS for animals.

Well that's a fair point but in that case why is pet obesity on the rise?

[Changedmyname]

Well I've heard it all now ,when some one comes into my shop and asks me for veggie sausages for their
dog because it can't eat meat.

FS.

[Phooey]

SGirl said:

Hiya Phooey,

Yes, we went down the chicken/rice route with our dog as well, it worked well for a couple of days and then straight back to the problems when she was back on her normal diet.

We have a lurcher. She's about 28 kg at the moment (still growing!), and they recommend that you feed a dog of her size 500-700 g a day. She gets 500 g, because we supplement her diet with other bits and pieces as well. So that's 1x 1kg box every 2 days. A 1 kg box is anywhere between £2.85 and about £3.85, IIRC. Postage is £9 no matter how much you order, and a few pet shops seem to be stocking it now if you want to avoid the postage charge. I'd estimate we spend about £20 a week on food for the dog, maybe a bit more if I buy one of their boxes of frozen bones instead of getting them fresh (and free!) from the butcher.

They do two "types" of food - normal, and Working Dog. The Working Dog ones contain a slightly different balance of nutrients, but they're cheaper because there's no VAT on them. I've tried both, I've not noticed any major difference in Poppy's energy levels, and they both look exactly the same in the box!

They sell stuff like chicken carcasses and lambs' heads as well, I've not tried those yet though.

If you do decide to go for it, please drop me a line first because they have an "introduce a friend" scheme so we can both get a fiver off. They have an offer on 12x 1 kg boxes of Working Dog Chicken at the moment, looks like a very good deal! Just got to persuade the dog she's only getting chicken for a while though. They run offers occasionally, they're always very good value when they do. Well worth looking out for.

BTW, I ought to add that I have no links with the company at all, I'm just a very happy customer! Or rather, the dog is.

re the fiver -




Thanks for that SGirl. Definitely food for thought, and not a bad idea if can buy the 'working' dog type in bulk. I'll see what goodie-box the missus comes back with from the butchers first

[Jasandjules]

Changedmyname said:

Well I've heard it all now ,when some one comes into my shop and asks me for veggie sausages for their
dog because it can't eat meat.

FS.

I know vegans who feed their dogs only on vegan food. And I also know vegans who feed raw bones/meat/offal etc..

[SGirl]

Phooey said:

re the fiver -




Thanks for that SGirl. Definitely food for thought, and not a bad idea if can buy the 'working' dog type in bulk. I'll see what goodie-box the missus comes back with from the butchers first

I can't add up - I meant to say £12-£15 a week.

Good luck, let us know how you get on!