Our Springer has turned on the pup and son...
Discussion
bexVN said:
That 2 week rule for annual booster is a s
t rule. We allow 3 months!
We'd never dismiss an owners concern re: a vaccine reaction but if I'm honest this is not the sort of reaction we'd expect, if we did think there was a possibility.
No joke, last year my father was rushed into hospital on the same day as Springer's booster appointment - it also happened to be the last day of the 2 week window. I phoned to reschedule it and got told he'd have to have the full course if I did that - needless to say, I left my poorly Dad's side and got to the vets. t rule. We allow 3 months! We'd never dismiss an owners concern re: a vaccine reaction but if I'm honest this is not the sort of reaction we'd expect, if we did think there was a possibility.
These are meant to be the best vets in town too. I am beginning to wonder.
Migsy said:
Karyn - Pup is doing ok I think, she's not hiding away and still wagging her tail, eating and drinking fine. She's got toys and her bed in a different room at the moment. She is definitely more cautious and less playful than she was. I am worrying about the longer term impact as well. Plus now getting the daily dog-walking contingent saying to re-home one of them 
I don't see that as the solution right now, but a very last resort.
Will update tonight - vets for pup at 5.50pm.
I don't see that as the solution right now, but a very last resort.Will update tonight - vets for pup at 5.50pm.
Poor pup!
I know you can't answer for what happens when there's no-one around, obviously (!), but are any family members reporting times where the springer is going for the pup when you're not around? Or is it only when you're around and the dogs are in the same room?
So, for example, has it happened when you've been away from them both for a couple of hours, and they've spent some of that time together (under obs)?
Maybe it's you that needs rehoming if the springer is getting possessive of you!
Back again and getting somewhere now. Saw a different vet or nurse.
Ali-Kat, Feldon's is in Bedworth rather than Bedford sadly.
Karyn - you're pretty close to what looks to be the root cause - that'll be me then.. There's no-one else around, so the situation doesn't arrive.
Firstly, pup's wounds - all superficial, except the end of the tail which could be a problem as it's hard to heal (all that wagging against doors, furniture, etc making it bleed again) so got to try and keep her in open space at excitable times (like walkies time!). Antibiotics for her.
Pup is also just coming into season, but this shouldn't cause the change in behaviour of the Springer.
A load of different questions later, it is looking like a dominance issue (hence alot of mounting apparently) and is going to take time, patience and re-training me and then the springer. It might or might not work - there's alot of stuff I do right, but there's some areas I am clearly too soft in. If I can sort those and it still doesn't work, it may well be they are not going to get along together as adults.
Ali-Kat, Feldon's is in Bedworth rather than Bedford sadly.
Karyn - you're pretty close to what looks to be the root cause - that'll be me then.
. There's no-one else around, so the situation doesn't arrive.Firstly, pup's wounds - all superficial, except the end of the tail which could be a problem as it's hard to heal (all that wagging against doors, furniture, etc making it bleed again) so got to try and keep her in open space at excitable times (like walkies time!). Antibiotics for her.
Pup is also just coming into season, but this shouldn't cause the change in behaviour of the Springer.
A load of different questions later, it is looking like a dominance issue (hence alot of mounting apparently) and is going to take time, patience and re-training me and then the springer. It might or might not work - there's alot of stuff I do right, but there's some areas I am clearly too soft in. If I can sort those and it still doesn't work, it may well be they are not going to get along together as adults.
Edited by Migsy on Friday 9th November 19:42
I've always thought it was in Bedford & wondered why they were so far away!!!Rach* said:
Please be very careful with them..... my friend in rescue had a similar situation with 2 bullies, unfortunately the aggressor killed her little old Jack Russell this morning.
Obviously very very distressing, she couldn't get the Bullie to let go once she had hold of the JR
So sad to read that. Ours are separated now unless I can observe them 100% together. It's still a real worry though.Obviously very very distressing, she couldn't get the Bullie to let go once she had hold of the JR
Migsy said:
Back again and getting somewhere now. Saw a different vet or nurse.
Karyn - you're pretty close to what looks to be the root cause - that'll be me then.. There's no-one else around, so the situation doesn't arrive.
Positive news and not-so-positive news there Karyn - you're pretty close to what looks to be the root cause - that'll be me then.
. There's no-one else around, so the situation doesn't arrive. 
Migsy said:
Pup is also just coming into season, but this shouldn't cause the change in behaviour of the Springer.
A load of different questions later, it is looking like a dominance issue (hence alot of mounting apparently) and is going to take time, patience and re-training me and then the springer. It might or might not work - there's alot of stuff I do right, but there's some areas I am clearly too soft in. If I can sort those and it still doesn't work, it may well be they are not going to get along together as adults.
Given that both dogs are quite young and in what sounds like a relatively secure and consistent environment with an owner who sounds very caring and intelligent, I'd still be hopeful that there's yet time to retrieve this inadvertent situation?A load of different questions later, it is looking like a dominance issue (hence alot of mounting apparently) and is going to take time, patience and re-training me and then the springer. It might or might not work - there's alot of stuff I do right, but there's some areas I am clearly too soft in. If I can sort those and it still doesn't work, it may well be they are not going to get along together as adults.
Be interested to know what sort of issues/interaction/behaviour have caused this scenario though, if you'd care to carry on keeping us updated in this?! Really grateful you are! You mention that you're "too soft" in some areas - has the behaviourist/vet indicated what they think these areas are, then? Intrigued to know what might cause this, given the disparity between age, gender and "intactness" of the dogs - they're polar opposites, so have they any pointers as to where they think the source of the friction is arising from? Or is it perhaps to do with how you interact with the two of them in reaction to their different personalities?
The mounting - pup initially would keep turning/moving away so he couldn't, but when he did manage it, she would just stand there and let him.
Where I am going wrong:
- I can't get him to loose lead walk. We've been to training classes, I've had the trainer here 1 on 1. She's always said it's a battle of wills with him and he wins that one. He is out of the door before me and on coming in. His off lead/recall behaviour is fab and the walk home is loose lead. I know Springers are notorious for pulling like a steam train, but it's no excuse really. Pup walks beautifully. He won't sit at the kerb either (he'll put his bum down then straight up again - the field is in sight and nothing else matters to him, the pup sits automatically).
- Sleeping arrangements. Ah, this is totally my fault. I crate trained him, to the point he'd take himself off to sleep in it about 9.30pm and stay in there all night with the door open and not come out until I came downstairs in the morning. Pup comes along, wanted to crate train her and it didn't work out - crying, disturbing springer, etc. Both ended up coming upstairs - him under the bed, she slept on the landing. In the last few weeks (another coincidental timing), he's been sleeping on the bed - a sign of dominance apparently. She still sleeps on the landing.
- Greeting at the door. Can't get him to sit and wait, he ignores all commands to stay, yet he'll sit and stay for feeding time (very food orientated). He approaches guests at will, but they are told to ignore him - he will still hassle them though.
- Playing - more often than not, I'll initiate play which is good, however, we play alot of tug games and he wins (he's strong). This is allowing him to think he is in charge apparently.
- Down/stay - I've not taught him to do this for long enough periods, ie. 30 mins whilst we have dinner or something.
- Stealing - He steals anything and everything and won't give it back unless I swap for a treat, post included! He won't chew whatever he takes though. I need to stop the treat swapping and use the sit/stay/give commands (tried this tonight and managed to retrieve a pencil without treats - a positive start and gave praise/fuss instead).
If he does something he shouldn't, ie. take a toy from the pup, I am to leave him in a room alone and not give him any attention/not speak to him. Bit of a problem there, as he'll just open the doors to come and find me, but it'll be a new experience for him and he should work it out pretty quickly.
He's an intelligent dog, he needs to know I'm in charge and not be able to think he can do his own thing. This should improve his behaviour towards the pup too but its not guaranteed.
Any advice, hints and tips most welcome. It's going to be a journey and a half.
Where I am going wrong:
- I can't get him to loose lead walk. We've been to training classes, I've had the trainer here 1 on 1. She's always said it's a battle of wills with him and he wins that one. He is out of the door before me and on coming in. His off lead/recall behaviour is fab and the walk home is loose lead. I know Springers are notorious for pulling like a steam train, but it's no excuse really. Pup walks beautifully. He won't sit at the kerb either (he'll put his bum down then straight up again - the field is in sight and nothing else matters to him, the pup sits automatically).
- Sleeping arrangements. Ah, this is totally my fault. I crate trained him, to the point he'd take himself off to sleep in it about 9.30pm and stay in there all night with the door open and not come out until I came downstairs in the morning. Pup comes along, wanted to crate train her and it didn't work out - crying, disturbing springer, etc. Both ended up coming upstairs - him under the bed, she slept on the landing. In the last few weeks (another coincidental timing), he's been sleeping on the bed - a sign of dominance apparently. She still sleeps on the landing.
- Greeting at the door. Can't get him to sit and wait, he ignores all commands to stay, yet he'll sit and stay for feeding time (very food orientated). He approaches guests at will, but they are told to ignore him - he will still hassle them though.
- Playing - more often than not, I'll initiate play which is good, however, we play alot of tug games and he wins (he's strong). This is allowing him to think he is in charge apparently.
- Down/stay - I've not taught him to do this for long enough periods, ie. 30 mins whilst we have dinner or something.
- Stealing - He steals anything and everything and won't give it back unless I swap for a treat, post included! He won't chew whatever he takes though. I need to stop the treat swapping and use the sit/stay/give commands (tried this tonight and managed to retrieve a pencil without treats - a positive start and gave praise/fuss instead).
If he does something he shouldn't, ie. take a toy from the pup, I am to leave him in a room alone and not give him any attention/not speak to him. Bit of a problem there, as he'll just open the doors to come and find me, but it'll be a new experience for him and he should work it out pretty quickly.
He's an intelligent dog, he needs to know I'm in charge and not be able to think he can do his own thing. This should improve his behaviour towards the pup too but its not guaranteed.
Any advice, hints and tips most welcome. It's going to be a journey and a half.
It sounds like you are going to have to put in a lot of hard work, but it will be worth it.
When you come in the house, ignore him for a few minutes. Do not fuss him until he settles. It does seem horrible but still, it may be worth it for you in the long run.
When going for a walk, he sits by the door and waits until you are ready. IF he is too excited, you wait. It WILL take ages BUT you MUST do this. He has to learn that the walk is when you say, and when he is calm enough to follow you.
When he tries to move ahead on the lead, stop. DO NOT move forward until he has gone back to your side.
One way to make him walk behind you is to walk along walls. It sounds odd but it does work, he will have no choice but to fall behind you.
Get him off the bed. He can not go on the bed nor the couch. Do not invite him up anymore. He may not sit on you either.
When someone comes to the door, put his lead on, make him lay down, and STAND on the lead. He won't be rushing forward then.
When you come in the house, ignore him for a few minutes. Do not fuss him until he settles. It does seem horrible but still, it may be worth it for you in the long run.
When going for a walk, he sits by the door and waits until you are ready. IF he is too excited, you wait. It WILL take ages BUT you MUST do this. He has to learn that the walk is when you say, and when he is calm enough to follow you.
When he tries to move ahead on the lead, stop. DO NOT move forward until he has gone back to your side.
One way to make him walk behind you is to walk along walls. It sounds odd but it does work, he will have no choice but to fall behind you.
Get him off the bed. He can not go on the bed nor the couch. Do not invite him up anymore. He may not sit on you either.
When someone comes to the door, put his lead on, make him lay down, and STAND on the lead. He won't be rushing forward then.
To be honest he sounds like a fairly normal Springer to me!
I'm not a great fan of dominance theories. For clarity, who gave you this recent advice and did they observe both dogs in their home environment for a period of time?
I'm puzzled why it's felt that the pup being in season wouldn't affect the springer, neutered or not, that's not my experience of seeing my friends dogs where she has an entire male, a neutered male and an unspayed bh.
For springer advice, you might want to try, it's a spring thing forum, lots of very knowledgeable people there.
I'm not a great fan of dominance theories. For clarity, who gave you this recent advice and did they observe both dogs in their home environment for a period of time?
I'm puzzled why it's felt that the pup being in season wouldn't affect the springer, neutered or not, that's not my experience of seeing my friends dogs where she has an entire male, a neutered male and an unspayed b
h.For springer advice, you might want to try, it's a spring thing forum, lots of very knowledgeable people there.
Morning all,
I was waiting for the "terrible owner" comments, so thank you for not doing that!
I think he's from working lines - he was a private rescue at 5 months old so don't have any history (he was with second owner at that point, we are his third). It was co-ordinated by a rescue fosterer, but not under the rescue centre umbrella. He's the longer legged variety, without docked tail. His personality was definitely full of confidence, jumped on anything on day 1 (he's never been allowed on the sofas since), but was keen to please and learn.
He doesn't attack all other dogs - it is an issue in the house between him and the pup. What has triggered that is not really clear, but the vet thinks the general dominance he is displaying combined with the pup becoming an adult could be the reason. Apparently it is not uncommon.
It doesn't explain the growling at my son which has started again this morning - he was just fussing him and he started growling at him. Springer wasn't close to me either, so bang goes that possessiveness theory. Trouble with that, is its turning my son against the springer now too.
Will call the behaviourist and organise for her to come in when we are all at home and have started on the re-training. 20 minutes to get out the door first, but I made it
I was waiting for the "terrible owner" comments, so thank you for not doing that!
I think he's from working lines - he was a private rescue at 5 months old so don't have any history (he was with second owner at that point, we are his third). It was co-ordinated by a rescue fosterer, but not under the rescue centre umbrella. He's the longer legged variety, without docked tail. His personality was definitely full of confidence, jumped on anything on day 1 (he's never been allowed on the sofas since), but was keen to please and learn.
He doesn't attack all other dogs - it is an issue in the house between him and the pup. What has triggered that is not really clear, but the vet thinks the general dominance he is displaying combined with the pup becoming an adult could be the reason. Apparently it is not uncommon.
It doesn't explain the growling at my son which has started again this morning - he was just fussing him and he started growling at him. Springer wasn't close to me either, so bang goes that possessiveness theory. Trouble with that, is its turning my son against the springer now too.
Will call the behaviourist and organise for her to come in when we are all at home and have started on the re-training. 20 minutes to get out the door first, but I made it
Edited by Migsy on Saturday 10th November 09:07
Piglet said:
To be honest he sounds like a fairly normal Springer to me!
I'm not a great fan of dominance theories. For clarity, who gave you this recent advice and did they observe both dogs in their home environment for a period of time?
I'm puzzled why it's felt that the pup being in season wouldn't affect the springer, neutered or not, that's not my experience of seeing my friends dogs where she has an entire male, a neutered male and an unspayed bh.
For springer advice, you might want to try, it's a spring thing forum, lots of very knowledgeable people there.
Very useful website, used to go on there in the early days. Time to return!I'm not a great fan of dominance theories. For clarity, who gave you this recent advice and did they observe both dogs in their home environment for a period of time?
I'm puzzled why it's felt that the pup being in season wouldn't affect the springer, neutered or not, that's not my experience of seeing my friends dogs where she has an entire male, a neutered male and an unspayed b
h.For springer advice, you might want to try, it's a spring thing forum, lots of very knowledgeable people there.
He has been a typical springer by all accounts, but something has changed.
The advice and theory has come from the vet. But I'm open to experiences and will try anything to get this sorted. If I sound desparate, that's because I am!
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