Dog. Repair or Write off?

[z4chris99]

maybe i just look at the world a bit differently.. its a pet, its sad when they pass away or get injured, but at the end of the day its just a pet..

If a car and a dog are different, what about a dog and a cow.. that someone kills to put on your plate? or a chicken kept in a cage to give you eggs?

im honestly not trying to troll, i just think that a pet is at the end of the day, just a pet.

[gd49]

scdan4 said:

So we now have the choice of paying a quoted 1700 quid to have it repaired: this will involve an op, scraping the bone of her leg away, back filling with "titanium foam" which (somehow) the ligament will be attached to and (alledgedly) the bone will regrow through the titanium foam and reattach itself to the ligament. (ish, relayed via an upset wife). This is apparently "guaranteed" to work, will of course not cost a penny more than the quote and will last forever. (Despite the dogs tendancies to go absolutely banzai as soon as she is let off the lead in an open space.)

If the dog has ruptured its cruciate ligament, then, to my knowledge, this is not the standard technique for repairing cruciates.

There's a variety of ways of repairing cruciates, this one sounds rather experimental. Experimental techniques have a tendency to go wrong more frequently than established ones. If your vet is trying out a new technique, I'd be nailing them down to that quote and they'll cover the costs for any complications.

If you ring around a few other vets you should be able to get a couple of hundred off that quote for the current technique that's considered best, if you settled for a less sophisticated technique that may not work as well, you can probably get the bill down to about £1000. Also worth mentioning to current vet that your having financial concerns, can often lead to some different options emerging.

I have seen dogs which have probably ruptured a cruciate years ago and not had it repaired, these dogs usually end up with a permanent lameness but a functional leg and don't seem to be in excessive discomfort.

If you do have the leg repaired, most techniques do have good outcomes in the majority of cases. Be aware that its likely the cruciate on the other leg will go at some point.

I am surprised that your considering the purchase price of the animal in your decision making - there's sufficient surplus of dogs and cats in this country that they can easily be obtained free or for minimal amounts. If many people took this approach, veterinary care would rapidly become unsustainable to maintain.

[z4chris99]

he did say his doggy was a rehomer.. so the "purchase price" was most likely a donation to the charity or shelter who had him?

[s2sol]

I'm with the OP on this. I've grown up with dogs, and have a 3 year old lab farting at my feet now.

He's rehomed a dog, bought insurance that has reached its limit after 3 months of messing, and he's asking what is best for the dog in the situation he now finds himself in.

I've got grave concerns about vets and insurance. I think a lot of then take the piss, if I'm honest. The last dog I had got an infection following castrattion. The first question the vet asked was whethe or not he was insured. I felt it was the vet's problem to sort, not the insurance ompany's.

We've since changed vets, and the bloke's a lovely guy, our kids go to the same school, but I'm concerned he's a manipulative bugger, playing on people's emotions to screw as much as possible out of the insurance company. I'm pretty sure our dog has suffered some unnecessary anasthesia and x-rays that wouldn't have been suggested had he known we weren't insured.

I suspect there's an element of this going on with the OP's vet, or something similar.

If the £1700 is too much, look at the cheaper alternatives (PDSA, a more coventional operation), or try to get the dog rebomed as is. You could appeal to the vet's better nature, given he's already spent a lot of the insurer's money on making the dog no better.

[Jasandjules]

z4chris99 said:

he did say his doggy was a rehomer.. so the "purchase price" was most likely a donation to the charity or shelter who had him?

So? I took a cat in from the streets, she cost us over 3k over her lifetime. One bank holiday she got ill and I had the vet open for us immidiately, I think that was £600 or so for a quick consult.

The price is irrelevant. It is an animals life. To you a pet, to me as valuable as any member of my family.

[scdan4]

z4chris99 said:

maybe i just look at the world a bit differently.. its a pet, its sad when they pass away or get injured, but at the end of the day its just a pet..

If a car and a dog are different, what about a dog and a cow.. that someone kills to put on your plate? or a chicken kept in a cage to give you eggs?

im honestly not trying to troll, i just think that a pet is at the end of the day, just a pet.

Thank you Chris, muchly. We seem to be singing from roughly the same hymn sheet. I think some have been offended by, and are fixated on certain parts of my post, and possibly have lost the broader meanings (albeit apparently badly communicated) intended.

<continues digging>
She is a big brown dog. Experience says to expect a good bit less than a decade for something of this heft, even if treated like royalty.

During that time countless, no doubt equally good, fully working big brown dogs will be put to sleep merely because they are big, brown and no one wants them.

Why would I keep one in pain/discomfort whilst others are RSPCA'd?

gd49 said:

scdan4 said:

So we now have the choice of paying a quoted 1700 quid to have it repaired: this will involve an op, scraping the bone of her leg away, back filling with "titanium foam" which (somehow) the ligament will be attached to and (alledgedly) the bone will regrow through the titanium foam and reattach itself to the ligament. (ish, relayed via an upset wife). This is apparently "guaranteed" to work, will of course not cost a penny more than the quote and will last forever. (Despite the dogs tendancies to go absolutely banzai as soon as she is let off the lead in an open space.)

If the dog has ruptured its cruciate ligament, then, to my knowledge, this is not the standard technique for repairing cruciates.

There's a variety of ways of repairing cruciates, this one sounds rather experimental. Experimental techniques have a tendency to go wrong more frequently than established ones. If your vet is trying out a new technique, I'd be nailing them down to that quote and they'll cover the costs for any complications.

If you ring around a few other vets you should be able to get a couple of hundred off that quote for the current technique that's considered best, if you settled for a less sophisticated technique that may not work as well, you can probably get the bill down to about £1000. Also worth mentioning to current vet that your having financial concerns, can often lead to some different options emerging.

I have seen dogs which have probably ruptured a cruciate years ago and not had it repaired, these dogs usually end up with a permanent lameness but a functional leg and don't seem to be in excessive discomfort.

If you do have the leg repaired, most techniques do have good outcomes in the majority of cases. Be aware that its likely the cruciate on the other leg will go at some point.

I have been told that my description is slightly awry.

This problem has dragged on, as mentioned above, expensively. Had vet 1 diagnosed on visit 1, then there would be plenty of insurance money for everyone, with enough left over for a shiny new collar. This is sadly not the case.

We have ended up at the county "expert". He has explained this op in depth (to my wife, and I have been informed by her that my garbled version of it is not correct) and has made no mention of it being experimental - he is an orthopedic vet (based in devizes) and gave the impression of having carried it out a lot, and having experienced much better results with this method rather than others (nylon cord etc).

He has apparently operated on our vets own dog, as well as his receptionists. I assume that means the pets of the receptionists.

gd49 said:

I am surprised that your considering the purchase price of the animal in your decision making - there's sufficient surplus of dogs and cats in this country that they can easily be obtained free or for minimal amounts. If many people took this approach, veterinary care would rapidly become unsustainable to maintain.

It is illustrative of the size of the sums involved, especially when considered with the point about the RSPCA'd mutts above.

I would never consider paying that sum for a dog. I would never consider paying half that for a dog. It is highly doubtful I would pay a quarter. I have friends that have paid very good money for very good animals (great danes, dobermans, persians, siamese, maincoon yada yada yada.) I think they are nuts and would always opt for the unwanted mongrel mutt or puss, which have generally been introduced into my life from the *bottom lip stuck out* "but they were going to drown them" school of pet acquisition.

I don't get pedigrees and as a rule don't like them. Highly strung and fragile IMHO. I don't understand why people spend really rather large sums of cash on acquiring an animal - what I require from a pet has no bearing on how it looks or how good it's pedigree and provenance is. As mentioned many times above, it's not a car. Behave, generally. Be loving. Don't st inside. Live in harmony with all welcomed into the house. Bark at those not welcomed and the teenagers in the back alley. Thats pretty much all I require from a dog. In return they get well fed, well exercised, a soft bed, lots and lots of tickles and included in all the family does. My (and my families) pets are, and always have been happy. This does not mean that they are irreplacable, or that "nothings too good for my precious ickle woodgybum"


The cost of vetinary care is currently lots. I am sure that a vet surgery costs an awful lot to run, the knowledge costs a lot to acquire and their time should be rewarded.

However, all seen recently have been driving very nice cars. Vet 1 went off on a 3 week trip to Goa, and my suspicions are heightened when a consultation starts with "she is insured, yes?" So maybe if a few more people were pragmatic less perfectly good animals would have to be destroyed, less manky uncomfortable animals would have suffering prolonged and cornwalls holiday industry would be strengthened.

<puts away sweeping generalisations>

[essexplumber]

Jasandjules said:

So? I took a cat in from the streets, she cost us over 3k over her lifetime. One bank holiday she got ill and I had the vet open for us immidiately, I think that was £600 or so for a quick consult.

The price is irrelevant. It is an animals life. To you a pet, to me as valuable as any member of my family.

This.


Z4, I fully respect your opinion and sentiment aside I agree in principal (sp) but to me a dog is more than just an animal. Dogs are the most loyal and caring pet a person could have and as such deserve that extra special bit of care.

[happychap]

Phone a couple of vet practices and inquier if you can negotiate a lower price, or if they can put you in contact with a charity that might be able to cover some or all the cost.

[ali_kat]

otolith said:

Never having to face this sort of question is why I buy pet insurance - my question to the vet is always "what is in the animal's best interests?" not "what will it cost?". When people say they don't bother with insurance and will pay the bill, I wonder whether they would take this view:

A lex said:

And by the way OP id be selling my Earthly possessions to pay for my dogs to be 'fixed' before putting them to sleep.

or the OP's view. I hope the former.

Talk to your Vet, they will probably be able to assist with an installment plan

Also, when saying 'it is insured' at the start of a consultation they are (generally) checking their options, they will go ahead & make their diagnosis & recommendations anyway, but they get emotionally involved in their 'charges' no matter how much they say they don't... Knowing they are insured helps, a little, when they know it is going to be expensive.

If that makes snese?

[z4chris99]

essexplumber said:

This.

Z4, I fully respect your opinion and sentiment aside I agree in principal (sp) but to me a dog is more than just an animal. Dogs are the most loyal and caring pet a person could have and as such deserve that extra special bit of care.

Of course they are, here is my last ex doggy, who was written off in january this year. He was a rescue, and loved collecting rocks, hated white trainers and guns. Sadly he got rather old and ill, and although maybe I should have put him down earlier than we did he had a nice last year I hope.

but at the end of the day, he was just a doggy woggy.. ill get another rescue soon (i hope)

woof

[Albert Bridge]

Our darling eleven year old had the same injury on both rear legs,on two separate occasions over the last couple of years. As she had a previous bad reaction to general anaesthetic, surgery was not an option. On both occasions we managed to 'repair' the legs by giving her very very short lead walks and gradually building up to longer walks up over a number of months. We also did lots of physio at home every day with her.

Thankfully both legs are now repaired and she is able to run and play as before.

Please do not have your poor dog put down just because you can't afford surgery.

[S6 Devil]

Please read and consider conservative management.
http://tiggerpoz.com/id3.html

You could also join this group: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConservativeMan...
I have found them very knowledgeable and generous with both their advice and support.

My Schnauzer tore his ACL and 11 weeks on is walking on the leg with the torn ACL and improving well. It can take 6-12 months of careful restriction but there is hope!

Edited by S6 Devil on Thursday 22 November 08:12

[Roop]

One of my dogs had her cruciate rebuilt in September. She's now right as rain and is slowly rebuilding the strength in her leg. She's 10 years old and is full of beans. Wonderful to see her mended.

My view is it's a no-brainer...

[boobles]

Put the dog to sleep because of a leg injury? Are you for real?
If you can't afford a dog, don't buy one in the first place! Please give it to somebody who will look after it because I am more annoyed that you have ignored this injury for so long!

Sort it out OP asap & don't put it to sleep as it deserves better!

[scdan4]

Roop said:

One of my dogs had her cruciate rebuilt in September. She's now right as rain and is slowly rebuilding the strength in her leg. She's 10 years old and is full of beans. Wonderful to see her mended.

My view is it's a no-brainer...

Thats useful.

S6 Devil said:

Please read and consider conservative management.
http://tiggerpoz.com/id3.html

You could also join this group: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConservativeMan...
I have found them very knowledgeable and generous with both their advice and support.

My Schnauzer tore his ACL and 11 weeks on is walking on the leg with the torn ACL and improving well. It can take 6-12 months of careful restriction but there is hope!

& others: Not so useful here - she's a young, very energetic dog and is already miserable from 3 months of rest. Her love of running and boundless energy is a chief reason this is an issue / question in the first place. To "manage it", or attempt to "holistically" repair it, whilst probably an option on a myriad of dogs, it won't be on this one.

For her, in this case, that degree and length of restriction would be cruel.


Chris - a lovely pic thank you.

Boobles? please read it again. Whether people agree or disagree, there has been no suggestion of ignoring this.


Anyhow,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdvfXS6aoXQ 1min 26.

It seems that (although expensive) it is likely to be a successful and highly recoverable operation. Thank you to those who have shared their experiences - I had none, it is a new one on me, hence the question in the first place.

And this morning I got the girl up, she ran downstairs and started the torrent of "yeah poppy. poppy breakfast, poppy sit, poppy bed, etc" She is now throwing an ice cube tray at her and the mutt is just wagging her tail in reply. This is after sitting on her bed for the daily toast shower from the high chair and not hoovering up until she is told "ok".

It's someone elses money and it is only money. Sod it, she's a good dog.

[CAPP0]

[boobles]

You know it makes sense.

[bexVN]

So happy to read you're going for surgery, it's the best choice for her size and age, conservative management would not really have been a great option for her. All the best

[anonymous-user]

Well done on reaching the (IMO) right decision

Can you do us a favour? Just keep us updated with progress? It seems you had no experience of this injury so one assumes other may not either, so it might be a helpful tool in future for someone in a similar plight to have info about it

[Karyn]

Do appreciate what you tried to weigh up - her (perceived?) quality of life (pre-and post-op) against the cost, against the fairness, against the vet's prognosis, etcetc.

But, IMO, it's not really an option to make a decision like that on perceived implications.

She might love running and jumping (most dogs do!); but I'd wager she loves having her ears tickled and just generally being alive and breathing a lot more than... erm... being dead.... Which is the rather stark choice you seemed to be trying to boil it down to.


You cannot know how she will react to the surgery (and I can understand it was a completely unknown quantity for you that you were still trying to gauge - hopefully, the anecdotal evidence of the posters on here has helped you out), but it seemed so totally wrong to base a decision to end her life on the off-chance that the surgery might not take. Wrong! So, as others have said, I really am super happy that you've decided to take a chance on the surgery. Fingers crossed...!


Very definitely going to need (more) pictures of the cause of this mental anguish and exertion!