Dog training - shock collars?
Discussion
TIGERSIX said:
To the OP having had dogs for 50yrs all GSD I have never had need to resort to any training aid just time ,hence the old saying "a dog is only as good as its master"
Any GOOD trainer would never resort to shock collars .I've never had a bad GSD, in the last 25yrs I have always had resuced dogs and if you spend time with them as with children they respond to positive treatment.
Hi Tiger,Any GOOD trainer would never resort to shock collars .I've never had a bad GSD, in the last 25yrs I have always had resuced dogs and if you spend time with them as with children they respond to positive treatment.
I agree wholeheartedly. In part, you may have uncovered part of a reason why they may be used. Time. Or more accurately, a lack of it.
Oh, also, out of pure interest, what do you mean you've never had to resort to any form of training aid? Clickers, treats, long leads, specialised collars, etc, etc?
Caractacus said:
Hi Tiger,
I agree wholeheartedly. In part, you may have uncovered part of a reason why they may be used. Time. Or more accurately, a lack of it.
Oh, also, out of pure interest, what do you mean you've never had to resort to any form of training aid? Clickers, treats, long leads, specialised collars, etc, etc?
No never used any training aids in any form just time, but after 50yrs with GSD you know within a little their breeds short comings,I have a malamute cross GSD now and it taken a year to retrain him (he was 6 when we rescued him).I agree wholeheartedly. In part, you may have uncovered part of a reason why they may be used. Time. Or more accurately, a lack of it.
Oh, also, out of pure interest, what do you mean you've never had to resort to any form of training aid? Clickers, treats, long leads, specialised collars, etc, etc?
TIGERSIX said:
Caractacus said:
Hi Tiger,
I agree wholeheartedly. In part, you may have uncovered part of a reason why they may be used. Time. Or more accurately, a lack of it.
Oh, also, out of pure interest, what do you mean you've never had to resort to any form of training aid? Clickers, treats, long leads, specialised collars, etc, etc?
No never used any training aids in any form just time, but after 50yrs with GSD you know within a little their breeds short comings,I have a malamute cross GSD now and it taken a year to retrain him (he was 6 when we rescued him).I agree wholeheartedly. In part, you may have uncovered part of a reason why they may be used. Time. Or more accurately, a lack of it.
Oh, also, out of pure interest, what do you mean you've never had to resort to any form of training aid? Clickers, treats, long leads, specialised collars, etc, etc?
I've not used any treats, nor clickers with my two rescues - just praise. Collars and leads are used tho, of course. As how do you safely walk them off the property to 'heel' without first introducing them to such?
I would say that for most dogs, shock collars are over kill and shouldn’t be used. There are instances where these training tools are the last resort. A rescue organisation nearby uses a shock collar for dogs that cannot be integrated back into society because of severe behavioural problems and would normally be euthanised. The collar is only used when all other training methods are exhausted.
And it is great to see dogs, that would normally be euthanised, happy and well adjusted again.
And it is great to see dogs, that would normally be euthanised, happy and well adjusted again.
Caractacus said:
Cool. Sorry, but I did have the wrong end of the stick (if you'll excuse the pun) as I thought you were a dog trainer, in as much as it was your paid job.
I've not used any treats, nor clickers with my two rescues - just praise. Collars and leads are used tho, of course. As how do you safely walk them off the property to 'heel' without first introducing them to such?
Always found using short lead to train with, they usually associate going off property with staying close by within a short time,I use along line when in open-spaces with other member's of the public about GSD/Malamute can be over protective when other dogs present and to be honest I aire on the side of caution with other peoples dogs you never know what others dogs are like ,we see some shocking owners on the North Norfolk coast where we live people letting dogs run without care for others present or property I've not used any treats, nor clickers with my two rescues - just praise. Collars and leads are used tho, of course. As how do you safely walk them off the property to 'heel' without first introducing them to such?
Caractacus said:
Let me get this bit right...and please do correct me if I am wrong.
Dogs are pack animals. Dogs have an order when in a pack. This order is created by the leader of the pack treating the others with love, affection, treats and cuddles. This puts said dog on top of the pack and it's rarely challenged. If another dog dares to challenge the pack leader it's put in its place by love, affection, treats and words of encouragement. Dogs, when in a pack environment have a natural willingness to obey. They never, ever challenge the pack leader.
Pack leaders never growl, intimidate, nip, bite, scrap with challengers. After seeing a few hunting packs, I was astounded...go figure. It seems I may be wrong in my assumptions.
The pack leader will put others in place with fear & violence if necessary. My god, dogs are such animals!
Ermm.. speak to any dog trainer that has kept up to date with current thinking and you will discover that the pack theory for domestic dogs was discredited years ago...Dogs are pack animals. Dogs have an order when in a pack. This order is created by the leader of the pack treating the others with love, affection, treats and cuddles. This puts said dog on top of the pack and it's rarely challenged. If another dog dares to challenge the pack leader it's put in its place by love, affection, treats and words of encouragement. Dogs, when in a pack environment have a natural willingness to obey. They never, ever challenge the pack leader.
Pack leaders never growl, intimidate, nip, bite, scrap with challengers. After seeing a few hunting packs, I was astounded...go figure. It seems I may be wrong in my assumptions.
The pack leader will put others in place with fear & violence if necessary. My god, dogs are such animals!
Even if it did apply, it works by making the 'victim' fearful of the one inflicting the punishment - not fearful of the behaviour itself... Is this the sort of relationship you want with your dog(s)? If so, you will never ever have one that I bred.
lasermatt said:
Whilst out walking the other day I met a couple walking a springer in open space on a lead. We had a chat and he was 4 years old and I suggested they let him off to have a play with my dog. Their reply-we don't let him off the lead now as he ran off when he was a year old and we've been scared to let him off since. How sad for the dog!
This is precisely why dogs run off and have a poor recall... If being let off the lead is a rare and exciting event, of course the dog isn't going to want to return in a hurry!!!! FFSIt is the owners responsibility to provide a dog with regular safe off-lead exercise and train the recall in a controlled environment. Then you do something with/for the dog that is even better than running around off-lead and ONLY when the dog returns voluntarily 100% of the time, are you ready to try it outside of the controlled environment.
If you don't have, or can't be arsed to visit, a controlled environment, to do this essential initial training, please don't ever get a dog!
I used to have an Afghan Hound, with a perfect recall - even called it off chasing a sheep once, when I hadn't noticed he had slipped the lead (entirely my fault, as I hadn't buckled the collar correctly)... Ask anyone with an Afghan if they would let it off the lead in an unknown place, if you don't realise how significant that is!
I have never, and will never, use / condone / endorse an electric shock collar - if you need one, you shouldn't have a dog, in my opinion.
kVA said:
Ermm.. speak to any dog trainer that has kept up to date with current thinking and you will discover that the pack theory for domestic dogs was discredited years ago...
Even if it did apply, it works by making the 'victim' fearful of the one inflicting the punishment - not fearful of the behaviour itself... Is this the sort of relationship you want with your dog(s)? If so, you will never ever have one that I bred.
Interesting.Even if it did apply, it works by making the 'victim' fearful of the one inflicting the punishment - not fearful of the behaviour itself... Is this the sort of relationship you want with your dog(s)? If so, you will never ever have one that I bred.
My post was in reference to a pack of hunting hounds, so don't take it out of context. Also, I was playing devils advocate
I was not aware that pack theory had been discredited though, so thanks for that. I am not a professional dog trainer, and I would not currently call myself an amateur dog trainer, either. However, I am very, very interested in learning about the best way to train dogs and also dog behaviour, in general. Hence the thread about shock collars (I had no experience and even less knowledge about them).
It would also seem I have inadvertently used a mixture of training methods with my dogs (present and past). Some 'pack theory' based (none of the physical stuff though) - walking through doors first, getting the dogs to move instead of having to walk round/over them, etc, however for the main it has always been loads of praise and the occasional treat/reward session.
On the subject of having a dog you bred? I don't think that'd be an issue as I love mixes/mongrels
Anyway, I live in Carmarthenshire - the Puppy Farming (which is horrid, but that's another thread entirely) centre of Wales, I needn't go far if I changed my mind. What do you breed, by the way?
Cheers,
C.
ETA - Had an interesting chat with someone from a very well known UK Dog Training Assoc yesterday. He disagrees with Pack Theory being written off in domestic dogs. In fact it would seem many disagree. He says it's semantics, essentially. What he doesn't agree with is violence towards dogs and he said that Pack Theory and the methods described of old do not need to be forever bedfellows.
It seems to be fashionable to follow the pack on such issues of writing off pack theory. Heck, this Cesar Milan chappie also seems rather popular, too. As for his methods?
Edited by Caractacus on Saturday 12th January 10:10
I have never seen the need to use a shock collar, but with regards to pack theory being discredited, I am not so sure.
We have 4 sight hounds ourselves and also foster quite a few before they find a new home. We try to teach the foster dogs basic behaviour that is expected from a domestic dog.
In my experience the dogs certainly behave pack like. There is always a leader whose rules are obeyed by the other dogs. Some leaders choose to enforce heavily, some less so and pick their battles.
When we have a particularly weak dog in amongst 6 or more dogs, we really have to watch out as quite often, the pack will try to kill the poor soul.
As we have our own dogs roaming free amongst the foster dogs, it is very clear that if a new foster dog tries to be nasty to our own weakest dog, our own ‘pack leader’ (who is not a heavy enforcer) will attack the new foster dog together with our other 2 dogs.
To me, this behaviour is typical pack behaviour. To keep all these dogs in check and get them ready for domestic bliss we use both positive reinforcement as well as negative reinforcement. Having tried the positive reinforcement only I suspect it will work when working with purely domesticated dogs and puppies (and only 1 or 2 at a time). But as we only get ex racing Greyhounds and ex hunting Galgos, it doesn’t seem to be so effective.
In fact, our own Greyhounds and Galgos can be off the lead in most environments now and can be recalled up to about 300 yards, even when the ‘red mist’ is down and they have started a chase. Not a chance that would have been possible with positive reinforcement only. The chase is so ingrained in these hounds that to control this behaviour, both positive as well as negative reinforcement needs to be used. For me it normally takes around 6 months of daily training in a fenced 16 acre field, with the help of a quad to catch up with the hound. These hounds are not as easy to train as Labradors, Spaniels or Griffons.
Having had my share of very difficult dogs, I have never needed to use a shock collar, but I can see that there might be a need for some dogs, if it is a choice between a good life at home or euthanasia.
We have 4 sight hounds ourselves and also foster quite a few before they find a new home. We try to teach the foster dogs basic behaviour that is expected from a domestic dog.
In my experience the dogs certainly behave pack like. There is always a leader whose rules are obeyed by the other dogs. Some leaders choose to enforce heavily, some less so and pick their battles.
When we have a particularly weak dog in amongst 6 or more dogs, we really have to watch out as quite often, the pack will try to kill the poor soul.
As we have our own dogs roaming free amongst the foster dogs, it is very clear that if a new foster dog tries to be nasty to our own weakest dog, our own ‘pack leader’ (who is not a heavy enforcer) will attack the new foster dog together with our other 2 dogs.
To me, this behaviour is typical pack behaviour. To keep all these dogs in check and get them ready for domestic bliss we use both positive reinforcement as well as negative reinforcement. Having tried the positive reinforcement only I suspect it will work when working with purely domesticated dogs and puppies (and only 1 or 2 at a time). But as we only get ex racing Greyhounds and ex hunting Galgos, it doesn’t seem to be so effective.
In fact, our own Greyhounds and Galgos can be off the lead in most environments now and can be recalled up to about 300 yards, even when the ‘red mist’ is down and they have started a chase. Not a chance that would have been possible with positive reinforcement only. The chase is so ingrained in these hounds that to control this behaviour, both positive as well as negative reinforcement needs to be used. For me it normally takes around 6 months of daily training in a fenced 16 acre field, with the help of a quad to catch up with the hound. These hounds are not as easy to train as Labradors, Spaniels or Griffons.
Having had my share of very difficult dogs, I have never needed to use a shock collar, but I can see that there might be a need for some dogs, if it is a choice between a good life at home or euthanasia.
Cloggie said:
I have never seen the need to use a shock collar, but with regards to pack theory being discredited, I am not so sure.
We have 4 sight hounds ourselves and also foster quite a few before they find a new home. We try to teach the foster dogs basic behaviour that is expected from a domestic dog.
In my experience the dogs certainly behave pack like. There is always a leader whose rules are obeyed by the other dogs. Some leaders choose to enforce heavily, some less so and pick their battles.
When we have a particularly weak dog in amongst 6 or more dogs, we really have to watch out as quite often, the pack will try to kill the poor soul.
As we have our own dogs roaming free amongst the foster dogs, it is very clear that if a new foster dog tries to be nasty to our own weakest dog, our own ‘pack leader’ (who is not a heavy enforcer) will attack the new foster dog together with our other 2 dogs.
To me, this behaviour is typical pack behaviour. To keep all these dogs in check and get them ready for domestic bliss we use both positive reinforcement as well as negative reinforcement. Having tried the positive reinforcement only I suspect it will work when working with purely domesticated dogs and puppies (and only 1 or 2 at a time). But as we only get ex racing Greyhounds and ex hunting Galgos, it doesn’t seem to be so effective.
In fact, our own Greyhounds and Galgos can be off the lead in most environments now and can be recalled up to about 300 yards, even when the ‘red mist’ is down and they have started a chase. Not a chance that would have been possible with positive reinforcement only. The chase is so ingrained in these hounds that to control this behaviour, both positive as well as negative reinforcement needs to be used. For me it normally takes around 6 months of daily training in a fenced 16 acre field, with the help of a quad to catch up with the hound. These hounds are not as easy to train as Labradors, Spaniels or Griffons.
Having had my share of very difficult dogs, I have never needed to use a shock collar, but I can see that there might be a need for some dogs, if it is a choice between a good life at home or euthanasia.
Out of interest, what do you use as negative reinforcement?We have 4 sight hounds ourselves and also foster quite a few before they find a new home. We try to teach the foster dogs basic behaviour that is expected from a domestic dog.
In my experience the dogs certainly behave pack like. There is always a leader whose rules are obeyed by the other dogs. Some leaders choose to enforce heavily, some less so and pick their battles.
When we have a particularly weak dog in amongst 6 or more dogs, we really have to watch out as quite often, the pack will try to kill the poor soul.
As we have our own dogs roaming free amongst the foster dogs, it is very clear that if a new foster dog tries to be nasty to our own weakest dog, our own ‘pack leader’ (who is not a heavy enforcer) will attack the new foster dog together with our other 2 dogs.
To me, this behaviour is typical pack behaviour. To keep all these dogs in check and get them ready for domestic bliss we use both positive reinforcement as well as negative reinforcement. Having tried the positive reinforcement only I suspect it will work when working with purely domesticated dogs and puppies (and only 1 or 2 at a time). But as we only get ex racing Greyhounds and ex hunting Galgos, it doesn’t seem to be so effective.
In fact, our own Greyhounds and Galgos can be off the lead in most environments now and can be recalled up to about 300 yards, even when the ‘red mist’ is down and they have started a chase. Not a chance that would have been possible with positive reinforcement only. The chase is so ingrained in these hounds that to control this behaviour, both positive as well as negative reinforcement needs to be used. For me it normally takes around 6 months of daily training in a fenced 16 acre field, with the help of a quad to catch up with the hound. These hounds are not as easy to train as Labradors, Spaniels or Griffons.
Having had my share of very difficult dogs, I have never needed to use a shock collar, but I can see that there might be a need for some dogs, if it is a choice between a good life at home or euthanasia.
therealpigdog said:
Out of interest, what do you use as negative reinforcement?
Normally a louder, deep voice or a particular loud sound. I have had an instance where I have had to put a dog on his back because he had a habit of biting people who came too close. It did work even though it seemed he bit out of fear.Every dog is different, some are very sensitive and quiet, some are very physical and like a bull in china shop. So I don't think there is one correct training method for all dogs. Some dogs need a firm hand, some need a softly softly approach.
Just like humans I suppose :-)
Cloggie said:
Normally a louder, deep voice or a particular loud sound. I have had an instance where I have had to put a dog on his back because he had a habit of biting people who came too close. It did work even though it seemed he bit out of fear.
Every dog is different, some are very sensitive and quiet, some are very physical and like a bull in china shop. So I don't think there is one correct training method for all dogs. Some dogs need a firm hand, some need a softly softly approach.
Just like humans I suppose :-)
This is very true.Every dog is different, some are very sensitive and quiet, some are very physical and like a bull in china shop. So I don't think there is one correct training method for all dogs. Some dogs need a firm hand, some need a softly softly approach.
Just like humans I suppose :-)
Mobile Chicane said:
Reward-based training is a big topic.
Best consult a trainer who is qualified in this, and can advise on your dog's specific issues. Incidentally, this may involve training 'you' as much as the dog.
Nick-something-or-other (?) on here seems to know his stuff, and will hopefully see your post
My girlfriends Spaniel has her trained. She started stealing my girlfriends shoes and then she'd sit in front of her refusing to give up the shoe until the gf caved in and brought her food. Best consult a trainer who is qualified in this, and can advise on your dog's specific issues. Incidentally, this may involve training 'you' as much as the dog.
Nick-something-or-other (?) on here seems to know his stuff, and will hopefully see your post
It started to happen so often my girlfriend went in to autopilot every time the dog did it; dog appeared with shoe, gf gets up and goes to the kitchen, gives dog food, dog drops shoe
When I pointed out the dog had her trained she eventualy moved her shoes out of the dogs reach.
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