Dog training - shock collars?
Discussion
Caractacus said:
Now, if you're going to quote, use it all. Don't take it out of context fella.
Should leccy fences be banned? You're getting overly emotive with your last comment which is just plain daft. They are animals, and if it's ok for horses, sheep, cattle (some of which are indeed pets) to be zapped by grunty leccy fences...
Firstly, I don't see how a leccy fence is in any way similar to a shock collar so it wasn't out of context to my mind. Should leccy fences be banned? You're getting overly emotive with your last comment which is just plain daft. They are animals, and if it's ok for horses, sheep, cattle (some of which are indeed pets) to be zapped by grunty leccy fences...
I don't use leccy fences for my dogs nor do I think "it's ok" to do so. The farmers I know don't use leccy fences either for various reasons which do not sound nice at all.
Plus, if you want to push it, you can argue that an electric fence is to protect animals rather than simply a punishment.
Jasandjules said:
Caractacus said:
Now, if you're going to quote, use it all. Don't take it out of context fella.
Should leccy fences be banned? You're getting overly emotive with your last comment which is just plain daft. They are animals, and if it's ok for horses, sheep, cattle (some of which are indeed pets) to be zapped by grunty leccy fences...
Firstly, I don't see how a leccy fence is in any way similar to a shock collar so it wasn't out of context to my mind. Should leccy fences be banned? You're getting overly emotive with your last comment which is just plain daft. They are animals, and if it's ok for horses, sheep, cattle (some of which are indeed pets) to be zapped by grunty leccy fences...
I don't use leccy fences for my dogs nor do I think "it's ok" to do so. The farmers I know don't use leccy fences either for various reasons which do not sound nice at all.
Plus, if you want to push it, you can argue that an electric fence is to protect animals rather than simply a punishment.
Farmers in this part of Wales use leccy fences. Mainly to strip graze from what I've seen, as well as contain pigs to certain areas.
Caractacus said:
Jasandjules said:
Caractacus said:
Playing devils advocate here...besides, these are animals, not people.
Which is why they should be treated well.... Or, playing devil's advocate - should we also beat them with a stick if they misbehave? What about skin them alive? After all, they are "only animals".
Should leccy fences be banned? You're getting overly emotive with your last comment which is just plain daft. They are animals, and if it's ok for horses, sheep, cattle (some of which are indeed pets) to be zapped by grunty leccy fences...
King Herald said:
Caractacus said:
Jasandjules said:
Caractacus said:
Playing devils advocate here...besides, these are animals, not people.
Which is why they should be treated well.... Or, playing devil's advocate - should we also beat them with a stick if they misbehave? What about skin them alive? After all, they are "only animals".
Should leccy fences be banned? You're getting overly emotive with your last comment which is just plain daft. They are animals, and if it's ok for horses, sheep, cattle (some of which are indeed pets) to be zapped by grunty leccy fences...
But seriously, I am actually against the use of shock collars. I was wanting to gain others well thought out arguments/perspectives on the collars.
I tested a shock collar on myself once. It was quite a big one.
On the lowest setting it felt like a very mild static shock. On the highest setting it felt like one of those electric muscle toning machines.
It was unpleasant, but it never felt painful. Just "shocking".
I've seen people whack dogs on the nose with rolled up newspapers - I would guess that's twice as painful as the shock collar on full power.
On the lowest setting it felt like a very mild static shock. On the highest setting it felt like one of those electric muscle toning machines.
It was unpleasant, but it never felt painful. Just "shocking".
I've seen people whack dogs on the nose with rolled up newspapers - I would guess that's twice as painful as the shock collar on full power.
bigbob77 said:
I tested a shock collar on myself once. It was quite a big one.
On the lowest setting it felt like a very mild static shock. On the highest setting it felt like one of those electric muscle toning machines.
It was unpleasant, but it never felt painful. Just "shocking".
I've seen people whack dogs on the nose with rolled up newspapers - I would guess that's twice as painful as the shock collar on full power.
Many moons ago I was an ODP in NZ and I tried the muscle simulator (keep it clean, lol) on full whack on my arm...it was hilarious. My am was all over the place when it was turned right up; I seriously doubt a shock collar would come anywhere near close.On the lowest setting it felt like a very mild static shock. On the highest setting it felt like one of those electric muscle toning machines.
It was unpleasant, but it never felt painful. Just "shocking".
I've seen people whack dogs on the nose with rolled up newspapers - I would guess that's twice as painful as the shock collar on full power.
As for whacking on the nose? Never.
The RSPCA's stance
I can't think of a single reason to use a shock collar and I would view any trainer that uses them as ineffective.
I'm not aware of their use in any working dog training role either, which should tell you something.
I can't think of a single reason to use a shock collar and I would view any trainer that uses them as ineffective.
I'm not aware of their use in any working dog training role either, which should tell you something.
Rollcage said:
The RSPCA's stance
I can't think of a single reason to use a shock collar and I would view any trainer that uses them as ineffective.
I'm not aware of their use in any working dog training role either, which should tell you something.
No offence intended, but are you the UK guru of dog training? Therefore if you don't know of something it can't possibly exist? Also, who said I was or the thread was in fact talking of 'working dogs'?I can't think of a single reason to use a shock collar and I would view any trainer that uses them as ineffective.
I'm not aware of their use in any working dog training role either, which should tell you something.
Also, the RSPCA can kiss my arse. They lost all support from me recently (they were in my will to a large extent and also received monthly donations) due to their use of bolt guns to put down GSD's in 2009. Different thread, that.
Edited by Caractacus on Sunday 30th December 11:23
FFS
Pain is perfectly natural. It evolved. Millions of years since, the nervous system 101 - the means by which a living thing learns - ouch - bad idea.
b
hes nip their pups ears and nose, pack order asserts itself through similar means.
A shock collar works when you need to associate a bad outcome where in actuality none exists in the moment the dog crosses the Rubicon.
What to do if the dog chases sheep, the sheep don't bite back, ( unless you can take your pup to a friendly farmer in lambing time, and drop it into a pen with sheep and a lamb ) the shock collar will spike the dog and stop it in it's tracks.
The prey animal becomes something associated with a bad outcome. pain, and is logged as best avoid.
Better a mild shock than the local farmer using the default shoot first method.
What they aren't for is punishment after the event, or for that matter IMO associating pain with a command from the owner - that's like calling the dog back to you and then beating it with a leash.
Of course dogs respond first and best to reward, praise, toys/food treats.
But sometimes a learned/reinforced instinctual behaviour is too entrenched. Sometimes there just isn't the time or opportunity to touchy feely your way through a problem because the dog is making a bee line to disaster.
Shock collars have a place in training, but it's a very specific place.
And they are exactly like electric fences. Once a horse or cow for eg has been exposed to a fence for a time, the presence of the wire alone, without charge is enough to keep them to an area, because they've associated straying with a unwanted outcome.
People misuse leashes to beat their animals - should we ban leads?
Pain is perfectly natural. It evolved. Millions of years since, the nervous system 101 - the means by which a living thing learns - ouch - bad idea.
b
hes nip their pups ears and nose, pack order asserts itself through similar means.A shock collar works when you need to associate a bad outcome where in actuality none exists in the moment the dog crosses the Rubicon.
What to do if the dog chases sheep, the sheep don't bite back, ( unless you can take your pup to a friendly farmer in lambing time, and drop it into a pen with sheep and a lamb ) the shock collar will spike the dog and stop it in it's tracks.
The prey animal becomes something associated with a bad outcome. pain, and is logged as best avoid.
Better a mild shock than the local farmer using the default shoot first method.
What they aren't for is punishment after the event, or for that matter IMO associating pain with a command from the owner - that's like calling the dog back to you and then beating it with a leash.
Of course dogs respond first and best to reward, praise, toys/food treats.
But sometimes a learned/reinforced instinctual behaviour is too entrenched. Sometimes there just isn't the time or opportunity to touchy feely your way through a problem because the dog is making a bee line to disaster.
Shock collars have a place in training, but it's a very specific place.
And they are exactly like electric fences. Once a horse or cow for eg has been exposed to a fence for a time, the presence of the wire alone, without charge is enough to keep them to an area, because they've associated straying with a unwanted outcome.
People misuse leashes to beat their animals - should we ban leads?
Caractacus said:
Rollcage said:
The RSPCA's stance
I can't think of a single reason to use a shock collar and I would view any trainer that uses them as ineffective.
[b]I'm not aware[b/] of their use in any working dog training role either, which should tell you something.
I can't think of a single reason to use a shock collar and I would view any trainer that uses them as ineffective.
[b]I'm not aware[b/] of their use in any working dog training role either, which should tell you something.
RSPCA destroys HALF of the animals that it rescues
It AFIK also thinks gassing and shooting foxes is more humane than hunting with hounds.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
bigbob77 said:
I tested a shock collar on myself once. It was quite a big one.
On the lowest setting it felt like a very mild static shock. On the highest setting it felt like one of those electric muscle toning machines.
It was unpleasant, but it never felt painful. Just "shocking".
This.On the lowest setting it felt like a very mild static shock. On the highest setting it felt like one of those electric muscle toning machines.
It was unpleasant, but it never felt painful. Just "shocking".
I have one, and can say used to shock less than 10 times in 5 yrs on two dogs.
There are others on here that are the same, however I also know / fear putting my head above the parapet on the subject matter here on PH means this will not end well.
You do all realise too - don't you - that the shock collar has, and relies upon firstly a remote controlled beeper. A signal / sound close to the dog prior to any shock. They also have a button that JUST activates the beep and hence can be used to get the dog 'back in the room' if it takes off or needs a nudge in its attention?
I shan't bother going in to the why and reasons as I have previously on PH and like I say, it becomes silly.
I would challenge anyone to question my love affection and efforts to our dogs.
ETA - to answer the original (trolling) question. No - I do not believe they are for 'Dog Training'
I thank you for putting your own experiences forward though, I really do. I am merely trying to understand both sides of the story, minus the emotion. If you wish to PM me with your reasons as opposed to posting I'd welcome it.
Cheers,
C.
rudecherub said:
Shock collars have a place in training, but it's a very specific place.
And they are exactly like electric fences. Once a horse or cow for eg has been exposed to a fence for a time, the presence of the wire alone, without charge is enough to keep them to an area, because they've associated straying with a unwanted outcome.
Sorry, but no they are not exactly like electric fences: Electric fences work because the animal associates the pain with touching the fence - nothing else... It doesn't avoid that particular piece of grass, or stop straying onto the neighbouring farmer's newly-sown crops, if you remove the fence.And they are exactly like electric fences. Once a horse or cow for eg has been exposed to a fence for a time, the presence of the wire alone, without charge is enough to keep them to an area, because they've associated straying with a unwanted outcome.
Many many dogs simply become fearful of the collar itself - they don't associate a pain in the neck, with the direction they were running at the time, or the animal they were chasing... They just become confused and mistrust their owners and handlers - and incredibly fearful of the collar itself: How would you like the person you trusted most in the whole world, to attach an electric shock collar to your balls every morning - not knowing when she/he was going to press the button and cause you to yelp in pain? Would you ever really trust that person again?
Electric shock collars are just a marketing opportunity from companies who profit from lazy people who can't be arsed to do the right thing and learn how to look after and train a dog properly, from the start.... As for the chasing sheep and getting shot - if you don't trust your dog not to do this, don't let it off the f
king lead anywhere near them!!! FFS (For that matter, don't ever let it off the lead anywhere where it isn't either safely contained, or is at any risk at all of not coming back on command)I am very liberal with 'entry qualifications' for my agility training classes, but a solid recall is an absolute must - never ever let a dog off a lead anywhere that you are not 100% confident you can control it - would you let a 3 year old child loose on its own in a shopping centre?
rudecherub said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2254729/RS...
RSPCA destroys HALF of the animals that it rescues
It AFIK also thinks gassing and shooting foxes is more humane than hunting with hounds.
That article is nonsense. It says the RSPCA rehomed 60000 animals last year, but put to sleep 53000 of those it took in which is 44% of total meaning nearly 67500 more animals were taken in. That's a total of 120500 animals taken in by what is a charity. It then says only 3400 were destroyed for 'non-medical reasons' i.e. likely due to behavioural issues/aggression/dogs of banned breeds plus other factors inhibiting rehoming.RSPCA destroys HALF of the animals that it rescues
It AFIK also thinks gassing and shooting foxes is more humane than hunting with hounds.
So, in total less than 3% of animals taken in by the RSPCA were put to sleep for 'non-medical reasons' which really isn't a bad statistic especially as 'non-medical reasons' include reasons prescribed by law and those of public safety.
In terms of the other animals put to sleep for what are presumed to be medical reasons does this include wildlife? Remember that this makes for a large amount of the RSPCA's intake and by the time people are able to get their hands on a wild animal euthanasia is often the kindest option. Of the domestic animals signed over remember that many are signed over because people are no longer able to afford the extensive veterinary treatment an animal requires, again a situation that naturally results in euthanasia.
Look beyond the Daily Mail.
PS: If the article did hold some water and wasn't sensationalist nonsense how on earth would you expect any charity to find places for 60500 animals a year that can't be rehomed out of an intake suggested to be 120500 animals? Luckily as mentioned above I believe the figures to include wildlife as well as domestic animals.
Also, the RSPCA don't gas foxes. And I think shooting is generally considered better welfare than being torn apart by hounds.
Edited by Wigeon Incognito on Sunday 30th December 12:46
Wigeon Incognito said:
rudecherub said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2254729/RS...
RSPCA destroys HALF of the animals that it rescues
It AFIK also thinks gassing and shooting foxes is more humane than hunting with hounds.
That article is nonsense. It says the RSPCA rehomed 60000 animals last year, but put to sleep 53000 of those it took in which is 44% of total meaning nearly 67500 more animals were taken in. That's a total of 120500 animals taken in by what is a charity. It then says only 3400 were destroyed for 'non-medical reasons' i.e. likely due to behavioural issues/aggression/dogs of banned breeds plus other factors inhibiting rehoming.RSPCA destroys HALF of the animals that it rescues
It AFIK also thinks gassing and shooting foxes is more humane than hunting with hounds.
So, in total less than 3% of animals taken in by the RSPCA were put to sleep for 'non-medical reasons' which really isn't a bad statistic especially as 'non-medical reasons' include reasons prescribed by law and those of public safety.
In terms of the other animals put to sleep for what are presumed to be medical reasons does this include wildlife? Remember that this makes for a large amount of the RSPCA's intake and by the time people are able to get their hands on a wild animal euthanasia is often the kindest option. Of the domestic animals signed over remember that many are signed over because people are no longer able to afford the extensive veterinary treatment an animal requires, again a situation that naturally results in euthanasia.
Look beyond the Daily Mail.
Not forgetting prosecuting the guy who drowned a squirrel.
Fool me once...
kVA said:
rudecherub said:
Shock collars have a place in training, but it's a very specific place.
And they are exactly like electric fences. Once a horse or cow for eg has been exposed to a fence for a time, the presence of the wire alone, without charge is enough to keep them to an area, because they've associated straying with a unwanted outcome.
Many many dogs simply become fearful of the collar itself - they don't associate a pain in the neck, with the direction they were running at the time, or the animal they were chasing... They just become confused and mistrust their owners and handlers - and incredibly fearful of the collar itself: How would you like the person you trusted most in the whole world, to attach an electric shock collar to your balls every morning - not knowing when she/he was going to press the button and cause you to yelp in pain? Would you ever really trust that person again?And they are exactly like electric fences. Once a horse or cow for eg has been exposed to a fence for a time, the presence of the wire alone, without charge is enough to keep them to an area, because they've associated straying with a unwanted outcome.
Electric shock collars are just a marketing opportunity from companies who profit from lazy people who can't be arsed to do the right thing and learn how to look after and train a dog properly, from the start.... As for the chasing sheep and getting shot - if you don't trust your dog not to do this, don't let it off the f
king lead anywhere near them!!! FFS (For that matter, don't ever let it off the lead anywhere where it isn't either safely contained, or is at any risk at all of not coming back on command)I am very liberal with 'entry qualifications' for my agility training classes, but a solid recall is an absolute must - never ever let a dog off a lead anywhere that you are not 100% confident you can control it - would you let a 3 year old child loose on its own in a shopping centre?
I've never, ever, had a dog 'from the start'. They have all been rescues. Surely some behavioral issues can't be dealt with due to time/funding/resources? What about a dog that chews his/her own tail and makes it bleed? A quick zap when it next goes to bite/chew its own tail would cure that, no?
Also, no disrespect intended whatsoever, but entry level quals for agility hardly makes anyone a guru in the subject.
Also, where does someone go to gain such qualifications? And is there an actual national body that licences or an association that members of training companies can belong to?
kVA said:
rudecherub said:
Shock collars have a place in training, but it's a very specific place.
And they are exactly like electric fences. Once a horse or cow for eg has been exposed to a fence for a time, the presence of the wire alone, without charge is enough to keep them to an area, because they've associated straying with a unwanted outcome.
Sorry, but no they are not exactly like electric fences: Electric fences work because the animal associates the pain with touching the fence - nothing else... It doesn't avoid that particular piece of grass, or stop straying onto the neighbouring farmer's newly-sown crops, if you remove the fence.And they are exactly like electric fences. Once a horse or cow for eg has been exposed to a fence for a time, the presence of the wire alone, without charge is enough to keep them to an area, because they've associated straying with a unwanted outcome.
Many many dogs simply become fearful of the collar itself - they don't associate a pain in the neck, with the direction they were running at the time, or the animal they were chasing... They just become confused and mistrust their owners and handlers - and incredibly fearful of the collar itself: How would you like the person you trusted most in the whole world, to attach an electric shock collar to your balls every morning - not knowing when she/he was going to press the button and cause you to yelp in pain? Would you ever really trust that person again?
Electric shock collars are just a marketing opportunity from companies who profit from lazy people who can't be arsed to do the right thing and learn how to look after and train a dog properly, from the start.... As for the chasing sheep and getting shot - if you don't trust your dog not to do this, don't let it off the f
king lead anywhere near them!!! FFS (For that matter, don't ever let it off the lead anywhere where it isn't either safely contained, or is at any risk at all of not coming back on command)I am very liberal with 'entry qualifications' for my agility training classes, but a solid recall is an absolute must - never ever let a dog off a lead anywhere that you are not 100% confident you can control it - would you let a 3 year old child loose on its own in a shopping centre?
Not letting your dog off the lead. Great chain the dog up 24 / 7. You are being deliberately obtuse if you can't imagine circumstances where associating the shock from the collar with say next doors cat who strays into the garden, where the dog is off the leash, or indeed next doors sheep if you're a country dweller - can be instructive.
Can the collar be misused, - used by lazy owners who don't know what they're doing - certainly I said that from the outset. As can chainsaws - but dismissing them as a tool is misplaced.
But your emotive anthropomorphic imagery says a great deal.
Electric fences work whether off or on because of the pain association, if used properly the collar creates the pain association with something that can't otherwise bite back.
So sure take the fence away the cow will wander, just as the dog will if the cat/sheep/car it was chasing habitually until the pain association was made, isn't there.
It's exactly the same.
Wigeon Incognito said:
Also, the RSPCA don't gas foxes. And I think shooting is generally considered better welfare than being torn apart by hounds.
No it isn't, the Balir Government own report at the time concluded both shooting and gassing were more cruel than the very fast death from what amounts to the closest one can get to natural predation.Edited by Wigeon Incognito on Sunday 30th December 12:46
rudecherub said:
Electric fences work whether off or on because of the pain association, if used properly the collar creates the pain association with something that can't otherwise bite back.
So sure take the fence away the cow will wander, just as the dog will if the cat/sheep/car it was chasing habitually until the pain association was made, isn't there.
It's exactly the same.
Sorry, but you are wrong - just like cows and sheep, the dog associates the pain with touching the thing that caused the pain - in their case the fence, in the dog's case the collar. I have witnessed several instances of a dog becoming fearful of the collar (even wetting itself every time it is put on - and like the electric fence, that is ANY collar - not necessarily the shock collar). I have also seen cases where the dog associated running with the shock and refused to run anywhere, when it was wearing a collar. Just a thought - if sometimes, when you touched something you weren't supposed to with your hand, you got a pain in the back of your neck, would you relate the two? Or would you just think it's co-incidence? Or would you think that maybe something is wrong with your neck? Or maybe you have a trapped nerve in your arm and it was the particular action that caused the pain - not the object you touched? Think about it...So sure take the fence away the cow will wander, just as the dog will if the cat/sheep/car it was chasing habitually until the pain association was made, isn't there.
It's exactly the same.
In my opinion, resorting to a shock collar is an admission of defeat, with an arrogance that refuses to seek proper professional advice, when you have run out of knowledge and talent yourself. The day Victoria Stilwell or Bob Dunbar start marketing shock collars, I might think again, but until then, not a chance.
As for me professing to be a guru, I never said that - I stated that I do not allow people to attend my agility training classes, until they have a recall with their dog: I do not profess to be a 'dog trainer', I am a 'people trainer'. There are many people who do have excellent, hard-won, qualifications in canine behavioural training / correction, but I am not one of them. However, I do have qualifications as a dog agility trainer, thank you - I would not offer my services without them (partly because they are necessary for the appropriate insurance)
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