Dog training - shock collars?
Discussion
rudecherub said:
Not letting your dog off the lead. Great chain the dog up 24 / 7. You are being deliberately obtuse if you can't imagine circumstances where associating the shock from the collar with say next doors cat who strays into the garden, where the dog is off the leash, or indeed next doors sheep if you're a country dweller - can be instructive.
If you are not able to recall your dog, you should never let it off the leash anywhere other than in a secure area. The law says this and so does any self-respecting dog trainer. If you don't have somewhere you can let a dog off the leash safely and under control, you shouldn't have a dog...
kVA said:
As for me professing to be a guru, I never said that - I stated that I do not allow people to attend my agility training classes, until they have a recall with their dog: I do not profess to be a 'dog trainer', I am a 'people trainer'. There are many people who do have excellent, hard-won, qualifications in canine behavioural training / correction, but I am not one of them. However, I do have qualifications as a dog agility trainer, thank you - I would not offer my services without them (partly because they are necessary for the appropriate insurance)
What are these? And where can they be obtained from? Who trains the trainers and who are the folk you've referred to?Is there a national body that regulates all this?
rudecherub said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2254729/RS...
RSPCA destroys HALF of the animals that it rescues
It AFIK also thinks gassing and shooting foxes is more humane than hunting with hounds.
Indeed. I used to donate monthly to the RSPCA, did it for years in fact, but I heard such things as that above once too often and eventually decided to stop my contributions. RSPCA destroys HALF of the animals that it rescues
It AFIK also thinks gassing and shooting foxes is more humane than hunting with hounds.
Caractacus said:
What are these? And where can they be obtained from? Who trains the trainers and who are the folk you've referred to?
Is there a national body that regulates all this?
Methinks you are trolling, now... Is there a national body that regulates all this?
If not, Google is your friend
ETA - Or the Kennel Club...
Edited by kVA on Sunday 30th December 14:31
kVA said:
rudecherub said:
Electric fences work whether off or on because of the pain association, if used properly the collar creates the pain association with something that can't otherwise bite back.
So sure take the fence away the cow will wander, just as the dog will if the cat/sheep/car it was chasing habitually until the pain association was made, isn't there.
It's exactly the same.
Sorry, but you are wrong - just like cows and sheep, the dog associates the pain with touching the thing that caused the pain - in their case the fence, in the dog's case the collar. I have witnessed several instances of a dog becoming fearful of the collar (even wetting itself every time it is put on - and like the electric fence, that is ANY collar - not necessarily the shock collar). I have also seen cases where the dog associated running with the shock and refused to run anywhere, when it was wearing a collar. Just a thought - if sometimes, when you touched something you weren't supposed to with your hand, you got a pain in the back of your neck, would you relate the two? Or would you just think it's co-incidence? Or would you think that maybe something is wrong with your neck? Or maybe you have a trapped nerve in your arm and it was the particular action that caused the pain - not the object you touched? Think about it...So sure take the fence away the cow will wander, just as the dog will if the cat/sheep/car it was chasing habitually until the pain association was made, isn't there.
It's exactly the same.
In my opinion, resorting to a shock collar is an admission of defeat, with an arrogance that refuses to seek proper professional advice, when you have run out of knowledge and talent yourself. The day Victoria Stilwell or Bob Dunbar start marketing shock collars, I might think again, but until then, not a chance.
As for me professing to be a guru, I never said that - I stated that I do not allow people to attend my agility training classes, until they have a recall with their dog: I do not profess to be a 'dog trainer', I am a 'people trainer'. There are many people who do have excellent, hard-won, qualifications in canine behavioural training / correction, but I am not one of them. However, I do have qualifications as a dog agility trainer, thank you - I would not offer my services without them (partly because they are necessary for the appropriate insurance)
As I said, if used properly. If the dog associates the collar with pain then the use is improper. For this to occur it clearly implies over use / misuse.
Again I have seen dogs frightened of the leash, cowering when a foot is raised eg when I cross my legs, wet themselves when asked to pass through a door way. None of these conditioned reactions has been caused by a the door, or the lead, or my size nines, but the human beings before me.
Shock collars can't be used as day to day, as a minute by minute device, they are a specific tool for specific circumstances. Just like an electric fence - they ( edit ) *should* administer a shock when a boundary is crossed. ( edit ) if used properly by the idiot with the zapping button.
As for the whole think of it myself, that's utter nonsense, how I think is not the same as a dog thinks. I am a human being, the dog is a dog. This anthropomorphism creates so many problems - and as I said it speaks volumes about your woolly thinking.
I must think like a dog to appreciate how it associates my manner and behaviour.
Edited by rudecherub on Sunday 30th December 14:48
Even if you disregard the pain I would never use one on mine. It is so easy to get the timing just off and you are punishing the dog for doing nothing wrong. It could lead to a very confused dog, other methods are much easier to use and your pooch dosen't get hurt in the process.
Positive reqard based training is the best training method and has worked with my dogs.
Positive reqard based training is the best training method and has worked with my dogs.
kVA said:
rudecherub said:
Not letting your dog off the lead. Great chain the dog up 24 / 7. You are being deliberately obtuse if you can't imagine circumstances where associating the shock from the collar with say next doors cat who strays into the garden, where the dog is off the leash, or indeed next doors sheep if you're a country dweller - can be instructive.
If you are not able to recall your dog, you should never let it off the leash anywhere other than in a secure area. The law says this and so does any self-respecting dog trainer. If you don't have somewhere you can let a dog off the leash safely and under control, you shouldn't have a dog..." You are being deliberately obtuse if you can't imagine circumstances where associating the shock from the collar with say next doors cat who strays into the garden, where the dog is off the leash, or indeed next doors sheep if you're a country dweller - can be instructive. "
Spiffing said:
Even if you disregard the pain I would never use one on mine. It is so easy to get the timing just off and you are punishing the dog for doing nothing wrong. It could lead to a very confused dog, other methods are much easier to use and your pooch dosen't get hurt in the process.
Positive reqard based training is the best training method and has worked with my dogs.
If you can't get the timing right then the circumstances for the collar are wrong. Positive reqard based training is the best training method and has worked with my dogs.
EG you're trying to get out of fencing the garden so you try to zap the dog when it jumps over the paltry boundary wall.
As opposed to you have a long fenced drive, and the dog chases any vehicle, including children's bikes, and you have all the time in the world as it chases the wheels to associate that the inert rubber round thing can bite back - ie that trying to bite the tyres is a bad idea.
That said I would try every other method first before the shock collar. Much in the same way I'd reach for pruning shears before the chainsaw...
Also ideally we wouldn't start from this situation, but not everyone has a dog from at the earliest opportunity upon weaning.
kVA said:
Caractacus said:
What are these? And where can they be obtained from? Who trains the trainers and who are the folk you've referred to?
Is there a national body that regulates all this?
Methinks you are trolling, now... Is there a national body that regulates all this?
If not, Google is your friend
ETA - Or the Kennel Club...
Edited by kVA on Sunday 30th December 14:31
Thanks for the post P&M
When I originally started the thread I was of the opinion that there was no place for the shock collar in any situation. Period.
I'm now more open minded about the whole topic now though. I've also talked with a dog trainer who's said she gets problem dogs when other trainers fail to correct certain behavior. She does use such a collar, but only when all else has failed. And that is exceptionally rare. She's not in Wales though.
When I originally started the thread I was of the opinion that there was no place for the shock collar in any situation. Period.
I'm now more open minded about the whole topic now though. I've also talked with a dog trainer who's said she gets problem dogs when other trainers fail to correct certain behavior. She does use such a collar, but only when all else has failed. And that is exceptionally rare. She's not in Wales though.
Caractacus said:
Thanks for the post P&M
When I originally started the thread I was of the opinion that there was no place for the shock collar in any situation. Period.
I'm now more open minded about the whole topic now though. I've also talked with a dog trainer who's said she gets problem dogs when other trainers fail to correct certain behavior. She does use such a collar, but only when all else has failed. And that is exceptionally rare. She's not in Wales though.
I rehome dogs (we are a recognised KC rehomer).When I originally started the thread I was of the opinion that there was no place for the shock collar in any situation. Period.
I'm now more open minded about the whole topic now though. I've also talked with a dog trainer who's said she gets problem dogs when other trainers fail to correct certain behavior. She does use such a collar, but only when all else has failed. And that is exceptionally rare. She's not in Wales though.
Shock collars are vile, and are thankfully illegal in Wales. Hopefully they will be illegal across the whole of the UK one day.
You train an animal by rewarding when things go well, and not by inflicting pain when they don't.
Any "trainer" who has to use one of these things is not a real trainer at all, just some idiot who doesn't know how to train a dog.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Sorry OP, I saw the message earlier, but was running out of the door (dogs out on the moors ).
In my original post I was not saying as such that I did not want to say in public about collars, and have indeed talked about it a lot on PH over the years. The main reason I wanted to not elaborate is that PH has become such an argey bargey place recentley - ask Kames Martin - and I also know this is a subject that riles many, with a few who have a similar view to me.
I / we have one rarely used as in line with RudeCherubs thinking:
"Better a mild shock than the local farmer using the default shoot first method."
and yet I can also confirm to an extent what KVA indicates:
"Many many dogs simply become fearful of the collar itself - they don't associate a pain in the neck, with the direction they were running at the time, or the animal they were chasing... They just become confused and mistrust their owners and handlers - and incredibly fearful of the collar itself: How would you like the person you trusted most in the whole world, to attach an electric shock collar to your balls every morning - not knowing when she/he was going to press the button and cause you to yelp in pain? Would you ever really trust that person again?"
I disagree with the over dramatising of the second paragraph, but left it in place as that is how it was written.
So - I have Paddy, a good mate has Murphy. two wonderful healthy Black Labs of 6yrs. Both that love the outdoors and walks more than anything including food. They are regularly with each other and I use one to tire the other / vice versa
Both trained pretty bloody well, and soft as s
te.
Paddy's only downfall is the little fecker is just so excitable in the car going somewhere. Worse if Murphy is with us in the car as he really knows its going to be a good walk.
Driving along it was like watching a dog in a washing machine in the rearview mirror !
Meanwhile Murphy had a tendancy to once every now and again take off after a sheep.
BEFORE you all start shouting to have him on the lead if you dont trust etc - I am talking about roaming the Moors.
You simply can 'come upon' a loose sheep.
So, we decided to try a Collar. Bought from a proper source and took advise.
Tried it on ourselves first etc.
Like I say in my OP we have rarely used the 'Shock' but used the 'Beep'
It gives the opportunity to have a distraction to the dog there and then. You are right that the dog associates bad things with it.
the majority of the time we have forgotten to charge it, or even better still, I will raise the remote whilst driving, and Paddy will sit and quieten. Oh, and he isn't even wearing the collar !!!
SO, it is a tool. Not a punishment.
Murphy is a lovable sod and a character like all dogs. He also is an arrogant bugger. Less so if he wears the collar. If I see the sheep before him, talking to him : enforcing to him that you have seen it, and he is to behave is usually enough, or we put him on the leed.
If like I say he sees one out of the blue, he can take flight - taking maybe 15 seconds of our shouting to get him to call off the chase. Less if wearing the collar as the beeping is enough to remind him
I would say neither wear it 1% of their time in the car or on walks, but it is pulled out every now and again as a reminder.
helped?
Or keep your damn uncontrollable dog on the lead! Really, why do some people think the "keep your dog on a lead" message doesn't apply to them when walking on open ground? ).In my original post I was not saying as such that I did not want to say in public about collars, and have indeed talked about it a lot on PH over the years. The main reason I wanted to not elaborate is that PH has become such an argey bargey place recentley - ask Kames Martin
- and I also know this is a subject that riles many, with a few who have a similar view to me.I / we have one rarely used as in line with RudeCherubs thinking:
"Better a mild shock than the local farmer using the default shoot first method."
and yet I can also confirm to an extent what KVA indicates:
"Many many dogs simply become fearful of the collar itself - they don't associate a pain in the neck, with the direction they were running at the time, or the animal they were chasing... They just become confused and mistrust their owners and handlers - and incredibly fearful of the collar itself: How would you like the person you trusted most in the whole world, to attach an electric shock collar to your balls every morning - not knowing when she/he was going to press the button and cause you to yelp in pain? Would you ever really trust that person again?"
I disagree with the over dramatising of the second paragraph, but left it in place as that is how it was written.
So - I have Paddy, a good mate has Murphy. two wonderful healthy Black Labs of 6yrs. Both that love the outdoors and walks more than anything including food. They are regularly with each other and I use one to tire the other / vice versa
Both trained pretty bloody well, and soft as s
te.Paddy's only downfall is the little fecker is just so excitable in the car going somewhere. Worse if Murphy is with us in the car as he really knows its going to be a good walk.
Driving along it was like watching a dog in a washing machine in the rearview mirror !
Meanwhile Murphy had a tendancy to once every now and again take off after a sheep.
BEFORE you all start shouting to have him on the lead if you dont trust etc - I am talking about roaming the Moors.
You simply can 'come upon' a loose sheep.
So, we decided to try a Collar. Bought from a proper source and took advise.
Tried it on ourselves first etc.
Like I say in my OP we have rarely used the 'Shock' but used the 'Beep'
It gives the opportunity to have a distraction to the dog there and then. You are right that the dog associates bad things with it.
the majority of the time we have forgotten to charge it, or even better still, I will raise the remote whilst driving, and Paddy will sit and quieten. Oh, and he isn't even wearing the collar !!!
SO, it is a tool. Not a punishment.
Murphy is a lovable sod and a character like all dogs. He also is an arrogant bugger. Less so if he wears the collar. If I see the sheep before him, talking to him : enforcing to him that you have seen it, and he is to behave is usually enough, or we put him on the leed.
If like I say he sees one out of the blue, he can take flight - taking maybe 15 seconds of our shouting to get him to call off the chase. Less if wearing the collar as the beeping is enough to remind him
I would say neither wear it 1% of their time in the car or on walks, but it is pulled out every now and again as a reminder.
helped?
I have dogs: I live rural. I don't trust one of my dogs, he will chase something if he see it. So, he stays on the lead.
Taken from above:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
You are right that the dog associates bad things with it.
the majority of the time we have forgotten to charge it, or even better still, I will raise the remote whilst driving, and Paddy will sit and quieten. Oh, and he isn't even wearing the collar !!!
Well done: your dog associates you and that remote control with pain. I'm sure I could use a big stick on my dogs too, to cower them into doing what I want them to do.the majority of the time we have forgotten to charge it, or even better still, I will raise the remote whilst driving, and Paddy will sit and quieten. Oh, and he isn't even wearing the collar !!!
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/shockcollars
The Kennel Club's Electric Shock Collar Campaign
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1557
The Kennel Club in calling upon the Government and Scottish Parliament to introduce an outright ban on this barbaric method of training dogs.
Electric shock training devices train a dog to respond out of fear of further punishment, rather than from a natural willingness to obey. In order for the devices to serve effectively as a training tool, the dog has to perceive the shock as painful - moreover if the dog does not respond, the punishment has to escalate, creating further potential for abuse.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/9460/ESC-...
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1557
The Kennel Club in calling upon the Government and Scottish Parliament to introduce an outright ban on this barbaric method of training dogs.
Electric shock training devices train a dog to respond out of fear of further punishment, rather than from a natural willingness to obey. In order for the devices to serve effectively as a training tool, the dog has to perceive the shock as painful - moreover if the dog does not respond, the punishment has to escalate, creating further potential for abuse.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/9460/ESC-...
JumboBeef said:
I rehome dogs (we are a recognised KC rehomer).
Shock collars are vile, and are thankfully illegal in Wales. Hopefully they will be illegal across the whole of the UK one day.
You train an animal by rewarding when things go well, and not by inflicting pain when they don't.
Any "trainer" who has to use one of these things is not a real trainer at all, just some idiot who doesn't know how to train a dog.
Hi Jumbo,Shock collars are vile, and are thankfully illegal in Wales. Hopefully they will be illegal across the whole of the UK one day.
You train an animal by rewarding when things go well, and not by inflicting pain when they don't.
Any "trainer" who has to use one of these things is not a real trainer at all, just some idiot who doesn't know how to train a dog.
The KC are definitely not the be all and end all, to a large extent. They have their detractors, too. On a tangent, is it not the KC & their 'standards' that have created some horrendous breeding regimes and breeds that are a shadow of their former selves, all from 'selective breeding'. This dog MUST look like 'this' or 'that' is stupid. The KC is rife with snobbery, too.
So the KC can kiss my rear end, as can the RSPCA (for reasons mentioned prior).
As I've also said prior, I was entirely against the collars, but I can now see where they fit it. To dismiss them point blank, to me, seems arrogant and potentially fatal for some dogs with certain nasty behavior (that may see them put down).
Your comment in bold is ignorant in its entirety. Are you a dog trainer? Or do you rehome only (which is great, btw) ?
I understand this is an issue that raises the blood pressure and creates a knee jerk reaction from many (as it did for me initially) however it's not logically possible to say that every single type of dog and its potentially dangerous behavior can be trained out - purely with treats and praise.
As I'm sure you've experienced in your rehoming, you want to rehome more, to good homes, and more quickly (in an ideal world). How much time do you put into training out bad habits, to the detriment of taking in more pooches and therefore rehoming more? Do you keep some 'bad' dogs for months in your kennels; taking up valuable space? Or would you rather have those dogs retrained quickly with the correct use of such a collar. Potentially you could be saving more dogs from the RSPCA/Pound etc (or seeing as you're KC approved, do I assume you only rehome/take in posh doggies??).
Cheers,
C.
Edited by Caractacus on Monday 31st December 13:58
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Thanks for the Judgement JumboBeef.
You don't know me, my dogs my local areas of walks.
If you think I am cruel bd so be it .
I would rather my dogs ran free and had a whale of a time 99% of all walks thank on a leash unnecessarily.
Op, this is the venom posting that make me want to stay away from the discussions.
Bye
Apologies, P&M. I understand completely. You don't know me, my dogs my local areas of walks.
If you think I am cruel b
d so be it .I would rather my dogs ran free and had a whale of a time 99% of all walks thank on a leash unnecessarily.
Op, this is the venom posting that make me want to stay away from the discussions.
Bye
I'd rather my dogs were able to exhibit natural behavior as much as possible, which of course means off the leash. After all, having a dog on a chain/leash 100% of the time is cruel in itself.
JumboBeef said:
The Kennel Club's Electric Shock Collar Campaign
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1557
The Kennel Club in calling upon the Government and Scottish Parliament to introduce an outright ban on this barbaric method of training dogs.
Electric shock training devices train a dog to respond out of fear of further punishment, rather than from a natural willingness to obey. In order for the devices to serve effectively as a training tool, the dog has to perceive the shock as painful - moreover if the dog does not respond, the punishment has to escalate, creating further potential for abuse.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/9460/ESC-...
Let me get this bit right...and please do correct me if I am wrong.http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1557
The Kennel Club in calling upon the Government and Scottish Parliament to introduce an outright ban on this barbaric method of training dogs.
Electric shock training devices train a dog to respond out of fear of further punishment, rather than from a natural willingness to obey. In order for the devices to serve effectively as a training tool, the dog has to perceive the shock as painful - moreover if the dog does not respond, the punishment has to escalate, creating further potential for abuse.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/9460/ESC-...
Dogs are pack animals. Dogs have an order when in a pack. This order is created by the leader of the pack treating the others with love, affection, treats and cuddles. This puts said dog on top of the pack and it's rarely challenged. If another dog dares to challenge the pack leader it's put in its place by love, affection, treats and words of encouragement. Dogs, when in a pack environment have a natural willingness to obey. They never, ever challenge the pack leader.
Pack leaders never growl, intimidate, nip, bite, scrap with challengers. After seeing a few hunting packs, I was astounded...go figure. It seems I may be wrong in my assumptions.
The pack leader will put others in place with fear & violence if necessary. My god, dogs are such animals!
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
I read JumboBeefs moronic post and now , 2 miles larter fking seething at his accusations.
So far 6 miles in the walk, the dogs most have covered 18 min.
I think walking a dog on a lead is the cruelest of cruel things tbh. These two love the outdoors and tanking around more than anything. More than Bacon FFS ! I tested the theory once
Keeping a dog on a lead is "is the cruelest of cruel things"? Unbelievable. Dogs will run free, or they will walk to heel. They will be happy to do either. king seething at his accusations. So far 6 miles in the walk, the dogs most have covered 18 min.
I think walking a dog on a lead is the cruelest of cruel things tbh. These two love the outdoors and tanking around more than anything. More than Bacon FFS ! I tested the theory once
You clearly think that shock collars are acceptable. It is clear you are not going to listen to me, The KC, The RSPCA, other dog welfare organisations, other dog owners. Just to yourself.
OP, I have being rehoming for 10+ years. I have had discussions regarding shock collars with many many different people from all different backgrounds. NO ONE would ever use one of these. Train your dog using rewards, not punishment.
I would never rehome a dog to someone who would use one of these vile things on a dog: on your "best friend".
Caractacus said:
JumboBeef said:
The Kennel Club's Electric Shock Collar Campaign
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1557
The Kennel Club in calling upon the Government and Scottish Parliament to introduce an outright ban on this barbaric method of training dogs.
Electric shock training devices train a dog to respond out of fear of further punishment, rather than from a natural willingness to obey. In order for the devices to serve effectively as a training tool, the dog has to perceive the shock as painful - moreover if the dog does not respond, the punishment has to escalate, creating further potential for abuse.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/9460/ESC-...
Let me get this bit right...and please do correct me if I am wrong.http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1557
The Kennel Club in calling upon the Government and Scottish Parliament to introduce an outright ban on this barbaric method of training dogs.
Electric shock training devices train a dog to respond out of fear of further punishment, rather than from a natural willingness to obey. In order for the devices to serve effectively as a training tool, the dog has to perceive the shock as painful - moreover if the dog does not respond, the punishment has to escalate, creating further potential for abuse.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/9460/ESC-...
Dogs are pack animals. Dogs have an order when in a pack. This order is created by the leader of the pack treating the others with love, affection, treats and cuddles. This puts said dog on top of the pack and it's rarely challenged. If another dog dares to challenge the pack leader it's put in its place by love, affection, treats and words of encouragement. Dogs, when in a pack environment have a natural willingness to obey. They never, ever challenge the pack leader.
Pack leaders never growl, intimidate, nip, bite, scrap with challengers. After seeing a few hunting packs, I was astounded...go figure. It seems I may be wrong in my assumptions.
The pack leader will put others in place with fear & violence if necessary. My god, dogs are such animals!
I find it impossible to see why you need to use a shock collar? There are many methods of training dogs; using positive reinforcement for example, it does work.
I'm an Electrical Engineer, naturally I'm interested the effects that electricity has on humans (or animals)
I'm no Prof. on the effects of electricity on the body but I know a fair bit; even in the small currents which are administrated in a shock collar, it is potentially dangerous, can interfere with the heart and nerves etc. Couple this with wet skin/fur and your just making it worse.
Yes, the dog will probably be alright but it could still cause him some damage, or on the rare occasion interfere with the heart. The greatest risk is most likely from the 'shock' administrated, might cause the poor little bugger to have a heart attack.
I'm an Electrical Engineer, naturally I'm interested the effects that electricity has on humans (or animals)
I'm no Prof. on the effects of electricity on the body but I know a fair bit; even in the small currents which are administrated in a shock collar, it is potentially dangerous, can interfere with the heart and nerves etc. Couple this with wet skin/fur and your just making it worse.
Yes, the dog will probably be alright but it could still cause him some damage, or on the rare occasion interfere with the heart. The greatest risk is most likely from the 'shock' administrated, might cause the poor little bugger to have a heart attack.
JumboBeef said:
Dogs understand other dogs nipping and biting. They don't understand something around their neck which causes them pain.
You speak 'dog'?I've been reading about dog training and shock collars all day...the single largest fault/issue with these (say the professionals) is their misuse. Misuse by people who do not think about the other factors when they employ such a collar.
Also, I will not be using any shock collars on my dogs. As my OP says, I was talking with a trainer who said they were a good training aid (for certain types of bad behavior). She brought up the use of the collars as I was asking about one particular problem dog she had, to which she replied with "sorted out via shock collar and now 100% rehomeable" (the dog was dumped on their doorstep (well, it was sent to them via an animal courier, one way!) as the owners couldn't cope, despite other trainers doing their best).
Personally, I'm no longer suffering from 'knee jerk' emotional reactions wrt the use of shock collars. What I will be doing is trying one around my own neck tho (not my ball sack as someone else has suggested, lol).
Hell, I'll even record it and pop it up on youtube
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