Dog training - shock collars?

[Caractacus]

Great pics! Thanks for all the input

[pikeyboy]

I've used a shock collar on one of my pointers to stop it chasing rabbits. It is impeccably well trained and stops on the button to a single whistle command 99% of the time at circa 150mtrs. However it developed a fetish for chasing rabbits and refusing to recall. The use of the shock collar in the vibrate, beep shock order has cured this and was the only real tool for the job. I do believe in and practice reward based training but when you have a dog that knows what it should do, but decides it knows best, a good dressing down works wonders despite what the majority of namby pamby do gooders on here seem to think.

[JumboBeef]

Unbelievable.

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

1) walk 10 miles with the dog on a lead, no chance for him to go off putting up birds, smelling scents and other dogs (curtailing a good 20miles exercise for him

Now not only you admit to *sometimes* using a shock collar on your dog(s)...thankfully already illegal in some parts of the UK....you freely admit to breaching the code for dog walker in the countryside.

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/enjoying/...

Natural England said:

When you take your dog into the outdoors, always ensure it does not disturb wildlife, farm animals, horses or other people by keeping it under effective control. This means that you:

keep your dog on a lead, or
keep it in sight at all times, be aware of what it’s doing and be confident it will return to you promptly on command
ensure it does not stray off the path or area where you have a right of access

So, you're all right then. Stuff everyone else. You don't believe in leads so, what the heck, just let your dogs run riot.

[pikeyboy]

JumboBeef said:

Unbelievable.

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

1) walk 10 miles with the dog on a lead, no chance for him to go off putting up birds, smelling scents and other dogs (curtailing a good 20miles exercise for him

Now not only you admit to *sometimes* using a shock collar on your dog(s)...thankfully already illegal in some parts of the UK....you freely admit to breaching the code for dog walker in the countryside.

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/enjoying/...

Natural England said:

When you take your dog into the outdoors, always ensure it does not disturb wildlife, farm animals, horses or other people by keeping it under effective control. This means that you:

keep your dog on a lead, or
keep it in sight at all times, be aware of what it’s doing and be confident it will return to you promptly on command
ensure it does not stray off the path or area where you have a right of access

So, you're all right then. Stuff everyone else. You don't believe in leads so, what the heck, just let your dogs run riot.

Shock horror (No pun intended) man allows gundogs off the lead and they put a few birds up.

Realistically I'd like to think the natural engand code is aimed at people letting dogs worry live stock.

[Caractacus]

JumboBeef said:

Unbelievable.

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

1) walk 10 miles with the dog on a lead, no chance for him to go off putting up birds, smelling scents and other dogs (curtailing a good 20miles exercise for him

Now not only you admit to *sometimes* using a shock collar on your dog(s)...thankfully already illegal in some parts of the UK....you freely admit to breaching the code for dog walker in the countryside.

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/enjoying/...

Natural England said:

When you take your dog into the outdoors, always ensure it does not disturb wildlife, farm animals, horses or other people by keeping it under effective control. This means that you:

keep your dog on a lead, or
keep it in sight at all times, be aware of what it’s doing and be confident it will return to you promptly on command
ensure it does not stray off the path or area where you have a right of access

So, you're all right then. Stuff everyone else. You don't believe in leads so, what the heck, just let your dogs run riot.

Jumbo, enough already fella.

You're beginning to sound like a proper nimby do-gooder that will soon be shouting "What about the children?!"

Or, perish the thought, you'll be against 4x4's in the countryside soon (if not already) and will be buying a Toyota Prius.

[therealpigdog]

See my thread on chasing sheep.

Pup no longer has any interest in livestock.

Pup has only ever received a couple of mild shocks, and does not associate them with the collar or the handler - only chasing livestock or eating st.

She is now well into her first season working and has been phenomenal, even picking up in a field full of sheep.

If used correctly, shock collars can be useful tools - but like everything else, if used badly ....

[auto1]

kVA said:

Sorry, but no they are not exactly like electric fences: Electric fences work because the animal associates the pain with touching the fence - nothing else... It doesn't avoid that particular piece of grass, or stop straying onto the neighbouring farmer's newly-sown crops, if you remove the fence.

Many many dogs simply become fearful of the collar itself - they don't associate a pain in the neck, with the direction they were running at the time, or the animal they were chasing... They just become confused and mistrust their owners and handlers - and incredibly fearful of the collar itself: How would you like the person you trusted most in the whole world, to attach an electric shock collar to your balls every morning - not knowing when she/he was going to press the button and cause you to yelp in pain? Would you ever really trust that person again?

Electric shock collars are just a marketing opportunity from companies who profit from lazy people who can't be arsed to do the right thing and learn how to look after and train a dog properly, from the start.... As for the chasing sheep and getting shot - if you don't trust your dog not to do this, don't let it off the fking lead anywhere near them!!! FFS (For that matter, don't ever let it off the lead anywhere where it isn't either safely contained, or is at any risk at all of not coming back on command)

I am very liberal with 'entry qualifications' for my agility training classes, but a solid recall is an absolute must - never ever let a dog off a lead anywhere that you are not 100% confident you can control it - would you let a 3 year old child loose on its own in a shopping centre?

I don’t think I would like to use a shock collar on my dog. (Personal opinion)
But would it help in the following
I have a dog which is a nicely balanced dog no problems other than pulling at the lead and if let off the lead runs off big time.
I have always had a dog and have overcome the problem, in the past by conventional training, but this one seems imposable to get right.
We took it to puppy training when we first got it.
I have tried all the things that I can find on the net books etc. haltis long leads,etc
I have spent months stopping when it pulls and then moving on etc.
Now (sorry to be so long winded)
I feel the reason that this is happening is lack of exercise its no good walking it on a lead, cant let it go can’t find any ware secure to let it off.
The other dogs I could take to the beach and let them go and would come back to the call no probs but this one won’t.
I have garden that the dog will run around in but it’s not enough.
Any suggestions ,Thanks in advance
PS its 3 years old today

Edited by auto1 on Tuesday 1st January 13:00

[Caractacus]

auto1 said:

I don’t think I would like to use a shock collar on my dog. (Personal opinion)
But would it help in the following
I have a dog which is a nicely balanced dog no problems other than pulling at the lead and if let off the lead runs off big time.
I have always had a dog and have overcome the problem, in the past by conventional training, but this one seems imposable to get right.
We took it to puppy training when we first got it.
I have tried all the things that I can find on the net books etc. haltis long leads,etc
I have spent months stopping when it pulls and then moving on etc.
Now (sorry to be so long winded)
I feel the reason that this is happening is lack of exercise its no good walking it on a lead, cant let it go can’t find any ware secure to let it off.
The other dogs I could take to the beach and let them go and would come back to the call no probs but this one won’t.
I have garden that the dog will run around in but it’s not enough.
Any suggestions ,Thanks in advance
PS its 3 years old today

Edited by auto1 on Tuesday 1st January 13:00

Hi Auto,

Someone with more training knowledge will be along soon, no doubt, but even from my very limited experience and the info I have acquired on shock collars recently I'd have to say (imho) that this situation is not suitable for such a device. A different approach to training the pooch is they way forward.

Have you tried clicker and/or reward based training?

Cheers,

C.

[pikeyboy]

auto1 said:

I don’t think I would like to use a shock collar on my dog. (Personal opinion)
But would it help in the following
I have a dog which is a nicely balanced dog no problems other than pulling at the lead and if let off the lead runs off big time.
I have always had a dog and have overcome the problem, in the past by conventional training, but this one seems imposable to get right.
We took it to puppy training when we first got it.
I have tried all the things that I can find on the net books etc. haltis long leads,etc
I have spent months stopping when it pulls and then moving on etc.
Now (sorry to be so long winded)
I feel the reason that this is happening is lack of exercise its no good walking it on a lead, cant let it go can’t find any ware secure to let it off.
The other dogs I could take to the beach and let them go and would come back to the call no probs but this one won’t.
I have garden that the dog will run around in but it’s not enough.
Any suggestions ,Thanks in advance
PS its 3 years old today

Edited by auto1 on Tuesday 1st January 13:00

Auto,
I don't think a shock collar is the right tool in this instance.

Does your dog have any recall whatsoever?

I would suggest that you need to go back to basics and very slowly build up the recall distance. start in your hall way so the dog cant go any where else then progress to the garden where I would use a long line for a start. Reward with lashings of praise play and treats. I know you say you've tried all this before but perseverance will work. You might also try using a new recall command.

[auto1]

Hi thanks for reply.
I haven’t tried a clicker but done the reward thing.
I think the dog knows what I want it to do, in an enclosed area (The Garden a friends tennis court) the dog will come back sit stay walk to heal without a lead leave food all that would be expected .
Out side it seems to go into a different world, such as pulling if, I command it to come to heal it returns will sit and stay on command then when I start walking goes straight back to pull mode.

I can get it to walk to heal on the pathway outside the house, after much walking up and down (weeks) stopping when pulled will not pull as much but soon as we turn the corner out of the practise area it starts again.
Long lead in a strange area runs round and round like a loon, but will stop and return most of the time.
But I could not trust it would be off .
Thanks again for any help.

Edited by auto1 on Tuesday 1st January 14:33

[pikeyboy]

auto1 said:

Hi thanks for reply.
I haven’t tried a clicker but done the reward thing.
I think the dog knows what I want it to do, in an enclosed area (The Garden a friends tennis court) the dog will come back sit stay walk to heal without a lead leave food all that would be expected .
Out side it seems to go into a different world, such as pulling if, I command it to come to heal it returns will sit and stay on command then when I start walking goes straight back to pull mode.

I can get it to walk to heal on the pathway outside the house, after much walking up and down (weeks) stopping when pulled will not pull as much but soon as we turn the corner out of the practise area it starts again.
Long lead in a strange area runs round and round like a loon, but will stop and return most of the time.
But I could not trust it would be off .
Thanks again for any help.

Edited by auto1 on Tuesday 1st January 14:33

Like I said back to basics and work from their.

Long line high value reward like roast chicken and use a nice tone of voice when it's done good. Deep nasty voice tone when it hasn't. This change in tone will surprise the dog. Also don't keep shouting if it won't do as you ask you're training it ignore you hence why I said use a new recall command.

[auto1]

OK thanks I will start tomorrow

[Upatdawn]

If an owner is prepared to wear one for a week and be "shocked" twice an hour they wouldnt put one on a dog, cruel and banned in Wales

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14181927

You dont train any animal with fear, basically they are a mini-taser

[Caractacus]

Upatdawn said:

If an owner is prepared to wear one for a week and be "shocked" twice an hour they wouldnt put one on a dog, cruel and banned in Wales

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14181927

You dont train any animal with fear, basically they are a mini-taser

Your post makes no sense.

[pikeyboy]

Upatdawn said:

If an owner is prepared to wear one for a week and be "shocked" twice an hour they wouldnt put one on a dog, cruel and banned in Wales

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14181927

You dont train any animal with fear, basically they are a mini-taser

I wouldn't ever recommend that anyone used one to replace sound reward based training. However there are instances when a shock collar is the ideal training tool. Reward based training is great but there are times especially when the dog know's what it should do but thiinks it knows better that a firm hand is needed. There is only so often that you can ignore the bad and reward the good, to think otherwise is very nieave.

Edited to add they are fk all like a tazer shock collars emit a slight kick and dont incapacitate the dog.

Edited by boy on Tuesday 1st January 17:10

[Marcellus]

auto1 said:

OK thanks I will start tomorrow

Depends on how much you "trust" your dog despite this little issue.

I had the same with mine, on a lead it would pull your arm off, let it off the lead and it would basically stay with me unless i told it to "go away".

So one afternoon on the way back for our usual walk I made her sit, changed the command from here to close and didn't put the lead on. She now walks completely glued to my left leg without the lead.

If I do put a lead on she still rips my rm off.

[auto1]

That’s quite interesting, because if I drop the lead she tends to walk about, not so much run off.
The other strange thing is, when I get the lead out of cupboard she looks scared and runs and lays down in her basket, until we put the lead on then she gets up normally.
Can’t work out why never been told off hit any thing like that.

[Marcellus]

Loads of phsyco babble about the change in ours from; wants to lead/be in front, to eager to get to fields/woods, to protection of us........ Who cares why but it has worked and made walks a lot easier for both us and the dog.

[bexVN]

Marcellus said:

Loads of phsyco babble about the change in ours from; wants to lead/be in front, to eager to get to fields/woods, to protection of us........ Who cares why but it has worked and made walks a lot easier for both us and the dog.

What breed is she? She sounds typical of a collie

[parakitaMol.]

OP - shock collars = despicable