Dog training - shock collars?
Discussion
JumboBeef said:
Dogs understand other dogs nipping and biting. They don't understand something around their neck which causes them pain.
O_O oh for sure Dogs never go for the neck when settling pack order disputes, ie whose boss - I've never ever seen that, no never, nope really ...ROTFLOL
Sorry, my user name doesn't reflect my professional role/day job! 
I have a flick through from time and add my thoughts where I think it's useful.
This is a hot potato subject and I usually avoid getting involved as opinion remains divided. I usually skirt around controversy
I have yet to resort to one of these devices in 10 years of training, but if certain circumstances called for it I would potentially use one. They're already banned in Wales as some may know and likely to go that way in the UK in time. This is largely a good thing, though it will remove the option from skilled/experienced trainers which may prevent resolving certain dog behaviour cases. Cases that particularly come to mind would be stock chasing and other predatory behaviours which are nigh impossible to resolve at longer distances away from the handler.
Ask me anything that comes to mind
Nick
I have a flick through from time and add my thoughts where I think it's useful.
This is a hot potato subject and I usually avoid getting involved as opinion remains divided. I usually skirt around controversy
I have yet to resort to one of these devices in 10 years of training, but if certain circumstances called for it I would potentially use one. They're already banned in Wales as some may know and likely to go that way in the UK in time. This is largely a good thing, though it will remove the option from skilled/experienced trainers which may prevent resolving certain dog behaviour cases. Cases that particularly come to mind would be stock chasing and other predatory behaviours which are nigh impossible to resolve at longer distances away from the handler.
Ask me anything that comes to mind
Nick
To all those that say they have tried a shock collar? Are you physiologically the same as your dog? Do you feel and respond to pain in the same way?
If I had to guess I'd say that dogs are probably less affected by pain than humans, but I'd be buggered if I'm going to electrocute my dog based on a guess.
I did a lot of reading into dog training last year and leaving aside the cruelty issue, the major concern I could see with shock collars was the likelihood of the timing being off and the dog learning the wrong lesson.
If I had to guess I'd say that dogs are probably less affected by pain than humans, but I'd be buggered if I'm going to electrocute my dog based on a guess.
I did a lot of reading into dog training last year and leaving aside the cruelty issue, the major concern I could see with shock collars was the likelihood of the timing being off and the dog learning the wrong lesson.
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
for the sake of clarity. Again :
The purpose is not to shock, and as for "Electrocute". ?
Daily Mail-esque?
The title of this thread is shock collars. Perhaps you'd care to educate those of us that are labouring under the misapprehension that shock collars deliver a shock as to what they actually do.The purpose is not to shock, and as for "Electrocute". ?
Daily Mail-esque?
Maybe you can also explain why they are banned in Wales?
It's a shock. It's generated by electricity. Argue semantics all you like, it's inflicting an unknown level of pain on a dog at a specific point in time which may or may not be appropriate. It's lazy training at best and cruelty at worst.
ehonda said:
I did a lot of reading into dog training last year and leaving aside the cruelty issue, the major concern I could see with shock collars was the likelihood of the timing being off and the dog learning the wrong lesson.
Which of course never happens with any other training method? Or do you also refrain from giving a stern "NO" in case it is delivered at the wrong time? And be careful giving treats because you may be rewarding bad behaviour.As I've said before, our pup wears a shock collar. I can't remember the last time she was shocked (and has never had anything like a full strength zap) but it is useful as it can make a buzzing sound which serves as a useful tap on the shoulder when the blood is pumping. She doesn't associate us, or the collar, with bad things - in fact, the collar is a good thing, because it means we're going for a run somewhere.
It'd certainly be interesting to see some of the dogs of owners on here with a holier-than-thou attitude to shock collars. I'm presuming that all your dogs are in perfect physical condition; properly nourished; exercised sufficiently; well-socialised so that they never approach other dogs/people/children until permission has been given; never chase livestock; don't bark or pull at the lead; you always pick up the poo (and never hang the bags on trees) etc. etc. Of course, some people will have dogs like that, but I suspect they are in the minority.
And as for the ban in Wales, well lots of things have been banned in lots of places for different reasons - it was on the news today that bottled water has been banned in a town in America; mince pies were made illegal in England (and to my knowledge it was never repealed); and you can't drive at over 70mph on a deserted motorway. Just because something is banned it does not make it bad, just as just because something is not banned it does not make it good.
ETA: Lazy training? Before the collar was ever used, our pup never dropped more than two marks (out of 140 in Grade 3 IIRC) in her Gundog Club Field Tests. She has at least 1hr of 'training' five days a week, and of course the training is also carried over into her daily hour and a half walks. She has near perfect recall - unfortunately it wasn't perfect, and she chased livestock once and ignored the recall. I'd rather give her a zap on a collar than allow her to be shot.
Edited by therealpigdog on Thursday 3rd January 10:10
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
And as others have highlighted, administers less of a whack than an electric fence. Your choice of the word Electrocute seemed a little on the dramatic.
Why are they banned in Wales ? I have no f
king idea.
Guns can be lethal too you know. They are not banned. Your argument on their existence is rather silly.
I'm silly? You're the one bleating 'Daily Mail' just because you don't like someone taking issue with it.Why are they banned in Wales ? I have no f
king idea.Guns can be lethal too you know. They are not banned. Your argument on their existence is rather silly.
I haven't argued about the existence of shock collars. I can buy one on amazon so I've no idea why anyone would argue that they exist.
Your reference to guns is pretty much like your approach to dog training, half arsed, lazy and inappropriate.
EHonda - I'm surprised by your attitude on this - your posts are usually better quality.
Shock collars are used as aversion training - so the aim is that you never have to use the collar because the dog has associated the bad action it was performing with the shock, rather than the collar - sure, this can be misused, or applied incorrectly, but so can many (if not all) methods of training.
They can be used irresponsibly - but they can also be used responsibly. In the right hands they can be a useful tool. Don't assume that everyone who uses one is cruel or lazy - there is a chance that they might just know what they are doing more than you do.
Shock collars are used as aversion training - so the aim is that you never have to use the collar because the dog has associated the bad action it was performing with the shock, rather than the collar - sure, this can be misused, or applied incorrectly, but so can many (if not all) methods of training.
They can be used irresponsibly - but they can also be used responsibly. In the right hands they can be a useful tool. Don't assume that everyone who uses one is cruel or lazy - there is a chance that they might just know what they are doing more than you do.
Paddy Murphy & Mr Pig Dog,
I find it interesting that we three have used a shock collar when we arguably have some of the most highly trained dogs on here. Thus, I think we are in a good position to say whether they are effective if used correctly or not. I would also imagine that we are in a better position than most to have decided that all other avenues had been exploited before using one, this was certainly the case for me. This is undoubtedly an emotive subject as most people seem to find them cruel. Personally I find it less cruel than my dog chasing a rabbit across a road in front of a car and being run over.
I find it interesting that we three have used a shock collar when we arguably have some of the most highly trained dogs on here. Thus, I think we are in a good position to say whether they are effective if used correctly or not. I would also imagine that we are in a better position than most to have decided that all other avenues had been exploited before using one, this was certainly the case for me. This is undoubtedly an emotive subject as most people seem to find them cruel. Personally I find it less cruel than my dog chasing a rabbit across a road in front of a car and being run over.
P&M - My use of the word electrocute was wrong. I honestly thought it applied to non-fatal shocks too, I'm pretty sure that I have heard people (wrongly) referring to electrocuting themselves and probably done so myself.
That aside I still don't believe that causing physical pain to an animal as part of a training routine is anything less than a failure and a cruel one at that.
I have an 8 month old dog, she's far from perfect, she pulls at times, she jumps up at times however she's also very sweet natured and gentle so whilst these behaviours are undesirable they're not exactly serious. We're working on them and the reason they're not cracked is entirely my fault for not spending enough time on them, if anyone deserves a shock it's me.
P&M - I apologise for the cheap shot, my poor use of the term electrocute probably set the tone. I'm passionate about not inflicting unnecessary pain on animals and won't apologise for that.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the shock collars and leave it as that as I don't really want to offend anyone.
That aside I still don't believe that causing physical pain to an animal as part of a training routine is anything less than a failure and a cruel one at that.
I have an 8 month old dog, she's far from perfect, she pulls at times, she jumps up at times however she's also very sweet natured and gentle so whilst these behaviours are undesirable they're not exactly serious. We're working on them and the reason they're not cracked is entirely my fault for not spending enough time on them, if anyone deserves a shock it's me.
P&M - I apologise for the cheap shot, my poor use of the term electrocute probably set the tone. I'm passionate about not inflicting unnecessary pain on animals and won't apologise for that.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the shock collars and leave it as that as I don't really want to offend anyone.
ehonda said:
I'm silly? You're the one bleating 'Daily Mail' just because you don't like someone taking issue with it.
I haven't argued about the existence of shock collars. I can buy one on amazon so I've no idea why anyone would argue that they exist.
Your reference to guns is pretty much like your approach to dog training, half arsed, lazy and inappropriate.
ehonda,I haven't argued about the existence of shock collars. I can buy one on amazon so I've no idea why anyone would argue that they exist.
Your reference to guns is pretty much like your approach to dog training, half arsed, lazy and inappropriate.
the idea of this thread is to educate. Initially me, as I had no clue whatsoever as to these devices and my initial reaction was on of the 'knee jerk' variety and it was borne out of ignorance.
Your comments do strike a chord with The Daily Wail style headlines/reporting; it is the manner of your disagreement, not the fact you are disagreeing.
What's more, your final comment is entirely out of order, lazy, ignorant, inappropriate and misinformed. Oh, it's also wrong, too.
HTH.
ETA - ehonda, I see the above posts now (had not refreshed the page) and yes, it is obviously an emotive subject. All the best with your new pooch - sounds lovely.
Edited by Caractacus on Thursday 3rd January 11:39
I've used a shock collar on my 2 year old springer spaniel. Why? Because having exhausted every available training method his recall went out of the window if on live fur or feather or scent. It was a constant worry for me and a danger to him. Was I going to keep him on a lead on all walks-not a chance and I wanted to work him as I also shoot. I discussed options with my trainer and we agreed it was the only remaining option. Two weeks and two very weak shocks later and he was a different dog and nearly one year on has just completed his first season working to a reasonable standard. We haven't used the collar for 9 months.
Was I lazy? No as I spent 5 hours a week training him and a lot of money on one to one sessions with a professional trainer, but couldn't crack his recall in a certain set of circumstances.
Was I cruel? In my view no as his quality of life is now much better as I can trust him (most of the time) to be off lead and close by or at least recalled when necessary.
To those of you who've never used one-good for you as you've obviously got dogs who have always done as they've told.
Whilst out walking the other day I met a couple walking a springer in open space on a lead. We had a chat and he was 4 years old and I suggested they let him off to have a play with my dog. Their reply-we don't let him off the lead now as he ran off when he was a year old and we've been scared to let him off since. How sad for the dog!
Anyone can abuse any training method and hurt their dog, and in my view it's about responsible dog ownership and anyone that abuses their dog frankly shouldn't own one. I love my dog and to me the ends justified the means.
I won't enter the debate of right or wrong as my position is fairly clear just wanted to give my experience.
Was I lazy? No as I spent 5 hours a week training him and a lot of money on one to one sessions with a professional trainer, but couldn't crack his recall in a certain set of circumstances.
Was I cruel? In my view no as his quality of life is now much better as I can trust him (most of the time) to be off lead and close by or at least recalled when necessary.
To those of you who've never used one-good for you as you've obviously got dogs who have always done as they've told.
Whilst out walking the other day I met a couple walking a springer in open space on a lead. We had a chat and he was 4 years old and I suggested they let him off to have a play with my dog. Their reply-we don't let him off the lead now as he ran off when he was a year old and we've been scared to let him off since. How sad for the dog!
Anyone can abuse any training method and hurt their dog, and in my view it's about responsible dog ownership and anyone that abuses their dog frankly shouldn't own one. I love my dog and to me the ends justified the means.
I won't enter the debate of right or wrong as my position is fairly clear just wanted to give my experience.
A comment from Mrs TRPD, who gets all the credit for training our dogs:
We've never used our shock collar at a setting any higher than she received from a TENS machine during pregnancy. It isn't pain as such - the 'shock' is unexpected surprise. The buzzer function is a tap on the shoulder.
We thought long and hard before going down this route - and we're faced with two choices: try a collar; or put her in a pen with an angry ram. We felt the collar was the less painful.
Collars are a last resort - they are not an easy option.
Agree with Lasermatt - sounds like he was in a very similar situation to us and got the same results. Glad to hear you and your dog are enjoying working - there's nothing quite like seeing your dog do what they were bred to do - and pride in seeing them do it well.
We've never used our shock collar at a setting any higher than she received from a TENS machine during pregnancy. It isn't pain as such - the 'shock' is unexpected surprise. The buzzer function is a tap on the shoulder.
We thought long and hard before going down this route - and we're faced with two choices: try a collar; or put her in a pen with an angry ram. We felt the collar was the less painful.
Collars are a last resort - they are not an easy option.
Agree with Lasermatt - sounds like he was in a very similar situation to us and got the same results. Glad to hear you and your dog are enjoying working - there's nothing quite like seeing your dog do what they were bred to do - and pride in seeing them do it well.
Morningside said:
Watch @2:50. Worrying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bFEeFD98gE
This is exactly why they shouldn't be readily available. She hasn't got a clue. What I can't believe is that she carried on using it after it shocked her dog for a minute and how often is she using them if she is having to charge them most evenings???http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bFEeFD98gE
And the problem is most people who will purchase them will be like her.
bexVN said:
Morningside said:
Watch @2:50. Worrying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bFEeFD98gE
This is exactly why they shouldn't be readily available. She hasn't got a clue. What I can't believe is that she carried on using it after it shocked her dog for a minute and how often is she using them if she is having to charge them most evenings???http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bFEeFD98gE
And the problem is most people who will purchase them will be like her.
How can such things be purchased purely by folk who know what they're doing and how to use them correctly? Is it down to the retailers? Should they only be made available through Vets? Like a prescription, perhaps? I really don't know, just throwing some ideas into the ring.
Caractacus said:
You've hit the nail on the head there, Bex. She really is clueless, lazy and ignorant. And your last comment is also true. Sadly.
How can such things be purchased purely by folk who know what they're doing and how to use them correctly? Is it down to the retailers? Should they only be made available through Vets? Like a prescription, perhaps? I really don't know, just throwing some ideas into the ring.
I think they should only be given access to professional trainers (like what I am) and even then some form of training for the trainer.How can such things be purchased purely by folk who know what they're doing and how to use them correctly? Is it down to the retailers? Should they only be made available through Vets? Like a prescription, perhaps? I really don't know, just throwing some ideas into the ring.
nick_j007 said:
Caractacus said:
You've hit the nail on the head there, Bex. She really is clueless, lazy and ignorant. And your last comment is also true. Sadly.
How can such things be purchased purely by folk who know what they're doing and how to use them correctly? Is it down to the retailers? Should they only be made available through Vets? Like a prescription, perhaps? I really don't know, just throwing some ideas into the ring.
I think they should only be given access to professional trainers (like what I am) and even then some form of training for the trainer.How can such things be purchased purely by folk who know what they're doing and how to use them correctly? Is it down to the retailers? Should they only be made available through Vets? Like a prescription, perhaps? I really don't know, just throwing some ideas into the ring.
To the OP having had dogs for 50yrs all GSD I have never had need to resort to any training aid just time ,hence the old saying "a dog is only as good as its master"
Any GOOD trainer would never resort to shock collars .I've never had a bad GSD, in the last 25yrs I have always had resuced dogs and if you spend time with them as with children they respond to positive treatment.
Any GOOD trainer would never resort to shock collars .I've never had a bad GSD, in the last 25yrs I have always had resuced dogs and if you spend time with them as with children they respond to positive treatment.
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