Price of puppies

[Desiderata]

parakitaMol. said:

The problem with that image is when it comes to the second generation. If the breeders then try to mate two 'bleens' together, they won't get 4 'bleen' puppies, they'll get something like one blue, one green, one 'bleen', and one 'grue'. How many of the non-bleens will go to good homes?

[super7]

According to wikipedia......

mongrel

A mongrel, mutt or mixed-breed dog is a dog that does not belong to one officially recognized breed and is not the result of intentional breeding. Estimates place their numbers at 150 million animals worldwide. Although the term "mixed-breed dog" is preferred by some, many mongrels have no known purebred ancestors. Wikipedia

So a properly bred 'doodle' is NOT a mongrel.

[gl20]

Not been on this thread for a while since we got our first dog, which was a rescue, this summer. Just reflecting on various subjects on here:

- even as a couple with no previous dog experience, we were still able to adopt. Just need to be patient and be open to different breeds. Saying we were up for a trailhound meant they couldn’t move fast enough when one came up (and children would not have been considered an issue If we had any) because there’s little interest in this ‘breed’...

- my understanding is the KC don’t recognise Trailhounds but they are bred for a specific purpose (run 10 miles cross-country as fast as possible) so doesn’t this further complicate the argument about pedigree v hybrid (or designer etc) v mongrel v anything else?

- Personally, it doesn’t bother me what these new hybrids go for and if people are willing to pay as Much for a hybrid as a pedigree I assume they’ll one day be rebred and become KC recognised (whatever recognised means). Ironically, it would seem to me that pedigree recongnition is where things go wrong as it drives poor breeder behaviour ie in-breeding.

- the socialisation problem noted above doesn’t surprise me but perhaps isn’t just because of idiot owners. Or maybe we’re idiots? My point being that Sam (our adoptee) needs work in this area but it is precisely because of COVID that this is more challenging. Right now we’re working on socialisation exercises which includes having neighbours in the garden which I think is within the lockdown rules just (if we only have one person which clearly only goes so far in improving socialisation). But, either way, there’s far less scope for socialisation training right now.

Anyway, here he is. Clearly a cross-country athlete if ever there was one.





And the day he arrived

[Tomo1971]

Red9zero said:

In the summer we saw the new puppies getting walked all the time. Now it's wet and cold, we rarely see them at all. The novelty is definitely wearing off.

Ha, we picked up our Cairn terrier right as lockdown started in March at 8 weeks old, started discussing a pup / rescue around December / January and joined a Facebook group (who's admin is a crufts winning breeder) and just by luck one of the members had 3 week old pups who were sired by a winning bloodline.

So to some, we may be seen as owners of a lockdown pup....

We chuckled together on Saturday just gone as we were walking through a forest and 30 miles from home in torrential rain..... All to take him somewhere he can be off lead in relative safety.

Already discussing our next dog but will be a rescue, now we have some confidence.

[rxe]

Driver101 said:

I also fear that dogs are going to end up in homes, but 10 months later it's yet to happen. There isn't too many dogs in the homes at the moment and every single one is too old to be a Covid rejection.

Let's be honest morons have always owned dogs. There has always been ill behaved dogs and owners unwilling to look after and pick up after their dog. They didn't used to seek professional help.

There is clearly a lot more dogs in my walking areas than before. I really don't see any more ill behaved dogs that I came across before. I'm meeting lots of first time owners who are getting along really well.

If they are going to get through the puppy stage, bond with their dog, I can't see going on holiday the reason for abandonment.

Lockdown isn’t over yet. Loads of people have got puppies 9 months ago, and been largely at home since then. At some stage next year, life will return to normal, their £3000 dog will be a year old, and will be left on its own all day. After it has trashed the house 3x, they will be willing to swallow the £3k and give it to a rescue. They won’t be in rescues yet, you need a return to “normality” for that to happen.

[Algarve]

Enquiries noticably went up at our shelter as we went into lockdown, for a while we got more dogs rehomed than we normally would. We were careful though in asking what happens if lockdown ends next week / what if it doesn't end for a year?

If you were planning on getting a dog anyway then a lockdown was a reasonable time to do it with more people being at home to help settle them in. If you went for a puppy the downside was there was likely very little socialisation options though.

We've not had any of our own Covid rehomes returned yet and I'm not expecting any back but we're a relatively low volume shelter (40 something rehomed over the entire of 2020). We tend to not deal with puppies either which inevitably have a far higher return rate than adult rescue dogs.

We are getting various enquiries from people wanting rid of their dogs as they're either foreigners going home because of Covid, or Portuguese having to leave the country to look for work. Enquiries to dump dogs into a shelter must be 3-4 times the number we'd normally expect here.

[Red9zero]

Tomo1971 said:

Red9zero said:

In the summer we saw the new puppies getting walked all the time. Now it's wet and cold, we rarely see them at all. The novelty is definitely wearing off.

Ha, we picked up our Cairn terrier right as lockdown started in March at 8 weeks old, started discussing a pup / rescue around December / January and joined a Facebook group (who's admin is a crufts winning breeder) and just by luck one of the members had 3 week old pups who were sired by a winning bloodline.

So to some, we may be seen as owners of a lockdown pup....

We chuckled together on Saturday just gone as we were walking through a forest and 30 miles from home in torrential rain..... All to take him somewhere he can be off lead in relative safety.

Already discussing our next dog but will be a rescue, now we have some confidence.

Terrier owners are a bit odd anyway. We have a Westie There's nothing like getting soaked with your dog, to go home and get everything dried out ready to go out and get wet again

[Tyre Smoke]

super7 said:

According to wikipedia......

mongrel

A mongrel, mutt or mixed-breed dog is a dog that does not belong to one officially recognized breed and is not the result of intentional breeding. Estimates place their numbers at 150 million animals worldwide. Although the term "mixed-breed dog" is preferred by some, many mongrels have no known purebred ancestors. Wikipedia

So a properly bred 'doodle' is NOT a mongrel.

Yeah it is.

[parakitaMol.]

Desiderata said:

parakitaMol. said:

The problem with that image is when it comes to the second generation. If the breeders then try to mate two 'bleens' together, they won't get 4 'bleen' puppies, they'll get something like one blue, one green, one 'bleen', and one 'grue'. How many of the non-bleens will go to good homes?

Same ratio as the green and blue puppies.

I can’t believe how hysterical people get over what someone ELSE calls their dog.

Jesus as if we don’t have enough SERIOUS lack of understanding about dog training, welfare, husbandry, health and well-being.

[super7]

Tyre Smoke said:

super7 said:

According to wikipedia......

mongrel

A mongrel, mutt or mixed-breed dog is a dog that does not belong to one officially recognized breed and is not the result of intentional breeding. Estimates place their numbers at 150 million animals worldwide. Although the term "mixed-breed dog" is preferred by some, many mongrels have no known purebred ancestors. Wikipedia

So a properly bred 'doodle' is NOT a mongrel.

Yeah it is.

Whatever you want to think..... I don't think any 'doodle owner or likewise really gives a toss what you think anyway

You just want to post a different view to wind everyone up and amuse yourself.

[Tyre Smoke]

No, I want to post an opposing view because I hold an opposing view. It would appear there are a significant number here who cannot accept that an opposing view is valid.

Of course, if I don't follow the accepted opinion then I must be trolling.

So far, all I've done is stated facts and that anyone who pays £3.5k for a crossbreed is insane in my opinion. All I've received back is abuse and actually been called a racist (now removed by the mods after I complained).

[parakitaMol.]

And

Please donate all your spare testosterone to the 'nobody gives a f*ck' bank.

[Equus]

Tyre Smoke said:

No, I want to post an opposing view because I hold an opposing view. It would appear there are a significant number here who cannot accept that an opposing view is valid.

Perhaps the fact that there are a significant number of people who cannot accept your view should be telling you that the real problem is that you're incapable of accepting theirs?

[anonymous-user]

Tyre Smoke said:

No, I want to post an opposing view because I hold an opposing view. It would appear there are a significant number here who cannot accept that an opposing view is valid.

Of course, if I don't follow the accepted opinion then I must be trolling.

So far, all I've done is stated facts and that anyone who pays £3.5k for a crossbreed is insane in my opinion. All I've received back is abuse and actually been called a racist (now removed by the mods after I complained).

And yet you can’t accept the prevailing view that opposes yours: that these people are not “insane”.

Hypocrite. Plus snowflake. Maybe discussion boards aren’t really your “thing”.

[Tyre Smoke]

And if you read the thread, I'm not alone in my view.

But you carry on failing to accept there may be another point of view and being able to discuss it without getting angry.

[super7]

Your issues seem to be based around the point that 'hybrid breeds' should not hold the same value as 'pedigree' breeds and that 'pedigree' breeds are more ethical and more valuable than a mutt or mongrel or a doodle.

I beg differ massively as you probably have realised.

The cockapoo is 4th most popular dog in the UK. That in itself drives the price of these dogs. Supply and demand etc etc.

Unfortunately, the French Bulldog is no 1. (as of Pets4homes ranking for 2018). This is a dog that in most cases cannot breed successfully without human intervention. It's hips are so narrow that it can't mate naturally as the dogs can't mount to do the business. Most pregnancies come from AI. When the bh gives birth, the narrow hips and the big heads cause most deliveries to result in caesars to save the pups and mum as the pups heads get stuck. These 'traits' of the Big head, the squashed nose and the hips have been breed into the dog over many years to create the perfect 'pedigree' breed standard. At what point is any trait of this breed ethical to warrant the money these go for. I wonder how many owners know how their pedigree Frenchie came into existence!

Quite simply 'hybrid' dogs have every right to be as popular as pedigree's and to hold prices that mach or exceed pedigree's. If the issue of 'bad breeding' or 'ethical breeding' is the problem, then the 'Hyacinth and Henry Bouquets' of the KC should look a bit closer to home.

[Superleg48]

I do hold the opinion that these “designer dogs” such as Cockapoos, Labradoodles, Goldendoodles, Vuitton Terriers, Gabbana Mastifs etc have to some extent emerged as a result of human vanity rather than for a specific purpose or by accident per the traditional “mongrel” definition.

I am not a Pedigree Snob or have anything against a Heinz 57 hound. I do own currently 2 German Shepherds, have previously owned 3 German Shepherds but also have owned a gorgeous King Charles Cross with something and a couple of other dogs of unknown origin. All have been adopted from rescues. I love dogs and I love giving a loving home to a lost abandoned soul than feeding the machine that is currently out of control in my opinion in terms of “breeders” and the prices they charge.

Human vanity has a lot to answer for here.

What concerns me the most is the economics especially currently. The price of these dogs is frankly absurd and the resultant reluctance of owners to kiss goodbye to their investment if, god forbid, things go awry resulting in people selling them to unknown strangers rather than doing the decent thing for the animal. It is hard to take it on the chin and hand a dog over to a reputable rescue/rehoming centre but crucially it is in the best interests of the dog and that should be the overriding consideration in any decision making, however hard that may be.

It seems if you create a “designer” branded dog like we are seeing, it becomes a fashion accessory or some kind of social status thing, like having a flash car to outdo or keep up with the Jones’s kind of thing. This in my opinion is all so very wrong.

[Tyre Smoke]

I couldn't have put it better myself.

[georgefreeman918]

rxe said:

Driver101 said:

I also fear that dogs are going to end up in homes, but 10 months later it's yet to happen. There isn't too many dogs in the homes at the moment and every single one is too old to be a Covid rejection.

Let's be honest morons have always owned dogs. There has always been ill behaved dogs and owners unwilling to look after and pick up after their dog. They didn't used to seek professional help.

There is clearly a lot more dogs in my walking areas than before. I really don't see any more ill behaved dogs that I came across before. I'm meeting lots of first time owners who are getting along really well.

If they are going to get through the puppy stage, bond with their dog, I can't see going on holiday the reason for abandonment.

Lockdown isn’t over yet. Loads of people have got puppies 9 months ago, and been largely at home since then. At some stage next year, life will return to normal, their £3000 dog will be a year old, and will be left on its own all day. After it has trashed the house 3x, they will be willing to swallow the £3k and give it to a rescue. They won’t be in rescues yet, you need a return to “normality” for that to happen.

This was exactly our concern. We already have a 7 yo terrier, but she is happy being on the bed asleep all day, but we did get a German wire haired pointer in November.

We are both working from home, but realise that if and when we return to normal, he could be quite destructive if completely reliant upon our company. As a result we are tending to try and operate as close to a normal working route as possible. He has his morning walk and then we leave him in the utility / kitchen with his den until lunch time. Quick wee break and a short walk at lunch and then back into the kitchen for the afternoon. We have been getting to 4.40/5pm before he starts getting needy.

I suspect a lot with have never been left alone and as a result, become anxious and disruptive once their owners are back at work.

[sc0tt]

What amazes me with all this is my parents paid £700 for a pure breed KC golden retriever over 20 years ago. Whats that in todays money? Probably not far off.

My mongrel (cockapoo) cost a few quid 4 months back but is as lovely as my last dog. It doesn’t matter to me what dog mounted another or where his heritage came from. Demand drives price.

So now we are into the realms of why a KC “breed” is worth it over a hybrid? Because someone said a KC breed was better?