Price of puppies
Discussion
Tyre Smoke said:
I wouldn't pay the asking prices currently for a non pedigree dog.
By implication, that's suggesting that you would pay a dramatic premium for a pedigreeThe obvious question here is why?
As others have pointed out, limitations on its gene pool actually mean that it's likely to have more health issues than a non-pedigree dog.
As I've pointed out myself, most of the breed characteristics that were valued in the recognised breeds are now redundant for most of us, so why does it not make sense for people to pay a premium for dogs that have been deliberately bred to have characteristics that are useful and valuable to modern owners?
Superleg has hit the nail on the head, I think:
Superleg48 said:
Human vanity has a lot to answer for here.
No I wouldn't. I would expect to pay more, but I am with the majority here, I won't buy a dog that has 'defects built in' through inbreeding and small gene pools. I think that is abhorrent. However, it's far from the scandals of the late 80s and 90s. The KC have got their act together on that.
Springer spaniels are my dog of choice, there is a vast gene pool to choose from and a vast set of characteristics too. From show dogs (not my thing either) to trials dogs to working dogs all over the country. Many pedigrees have long lines of champions.
Springer spaniels are my dog of choice, there is a vast gene pool to choose from and a vast set of characteristics too. From show dogs (not my thing either) to trials dogs to working dogs all over the country. Many pedigrees have long lines of champions.
Equus said:
As I've pointed out myself, most of the breed characteristics that were valued in the recognised breeds are now redundant for most of us, so why does it not make sense for people to pay a premium for dogs that have been deliberately bred to have characteristics that are useful and valuable to modern owners?
Superleg has hit the nail on the head, I think:
I am not sure I can agree with the fact that somehow breed characteristics have become redundant in breeds prior to explosion of newly designed breeds. The reason all these new breeds have emerged is far more superficial than that.Superleg has hit the nail on the head, I think:
Superleg48 said:
Human vanity has a lot to answer for here.
There is nothing that a doodle has that cannot be found in breeds of dogs, traditional mongrel Heinz 57’s included (created by accident rather than intent) that have always existed.
I have yet to learn, and I am willing to do so, what a doodle offers that is practically different. Even the “doesn’t it look cute” falls down because plenty of dogs have always looked cute before doodles or poos.
Someone tried earlier but the argument was ridiculously weak.
I won’t be able to change it, because people want what they want, so to further hammer the nail home, it is purely human vanity that has resulted in the emergence of these new varieties.
Superleg48 said:
I am not sure I can agree with the fact that somehow breed characteristics have become redundant in breeds prior to explosion of newly designed breeds. The reason all these new breeds have emerged is far more superficial than that.
I'm talking about the working characteristics of the dogs, of course. Relatively speaking, very few people buy gundogs to shoot with, cattle dogs to herd cattle, sheep dogs to herd sheep, or Dalmations to follow their horse and carriage any more. Certainly, you might buy a Golden Retriever or English Pointer because they're invariably good-natured and can be trusted implicitly with children.Superleg48 said:
I have yet to learn, and I am willing to do so, what a doodle offers that is practically different.
I stand to be corrected, but my understanding of the poodle crosses is that their popularity is because they have coats that don't shed, they don't smell as 'doggy' as other breeds and are hypoallergenic. Labradoodles were originally bred - quite deliberately - as hypoallergenic guide dogs for the blind, back in the 1950's, and the other crosses followed.Rightly or wrongly, most people are less tolerant than they used to be of a household that smells of dog as soon as you walk through the door, and for whatever reason we seem to have an increasing problem with allergies of all sorts, these days. The poodle crosses largely address both problems.
As to lineage and pedigree's......
Our F1 Goldendoodle has a KC registered pedigree Standard Poodle mum and a KC registered pedigree Golden Retriever dad. Her daughter, an F1B, has a KC registered Poodle dad.
We know where the dog's have come from, we know their history. We know their gene pool. They are not a result of a bunk up behind the kennels. They have as much pedigree and lineage as any other other offspring of two pedigree KC registered dogs. So you may want to call them a mongrel, but they are far away from the general implication of the name.
As too why they were first crossed, Equus gave the reason. They are generally well tolerated by people who have allergies. they don't necessarily drop hair like, for example, a labrador. My old chocolate lab use to cover the place with hair.... and they don't tend to smell. F1B's, a second cross with a poodle, is generally the best for minimal shedding. Our F1 has more Retriever features, and she drops hair.
Our eldest is a F1 golden doodle as well but we have no idea of her past as she's a rescue, and our labradoodle was saved from some bad buyers, who we reckon were puppy farmers. They got told to f
k off when they had no interest in seeing the dog before hand, chucked the money at the breeder and then started to leave. The breeder, a friend, stepped in and took the puppy back and we bought him instead.
Our F1 Goldendoodle has a KC registered pedigree Standard Poodle mum and a KC registered pedigree Golden Retriever dad. Her daughter, an F1B, has a KC registered Poodle dad.
We know where the dog's have come from, we know their history. We know their gene pool. They are not a result of a bunk up behind the kennels. They have as much pedigree and lineage as any other other offspring of two pedigree KC registered dogs. So you may want to call them a mongrel, but they are far away from the general implication of the name.
As too why they were first crossed, Equus gave the reason. They are generally well tolerated by people who have allergies. they don't necessarily drop hair like, for example, a labrador. My old chocolate lab use to cover the place with hair.... and they don't tend to smell. F1B's, a second cross with a poodle, is generally the best for minimal shedding. Our F1 has more Retriever features, and she drops hair.
Our eldest is a F1 golden doodle as well but we have no idea of her past as she's a rescue, and our labradoodle was saved from some bad buyers, who we reckon were puppy farmers. They got told to f
k off when they had no interest in seeing the dog before hand, chucked the money at the breeder and then started to leave. The breeder, a friend, stepped in and took the puppy back and we bought him instead.Edited by super7 on Wednesday 30th December 10:05
Hi ! This is a genuine question . When considering buying a cava poo/ shon , labradoodle etc was there a reason you didn’t fancy buying other non shedding breeds? 20 years ago when I bought my bichon the vet recommended it to me because my daughter had allergies and asthma . He also recommended other breeds e.g poodle but in the end we plumped for the Bichon . The non doggy smell was a side benifit I wasn’t aware of till I had her. This time around I went for a terrier . She doesn’t shed either and is only ever ‘smelly’ when she’s been digging holes and it’s an earthy smell which I like .
As a side note I met a woman the other night on walkies with what I thought was a tiny Jack Russell . She asked me what breed my dog was - Dandie dinmont - we both laughed as it is a funny wee name for a breed of dog . I asked her what her dog was and she told me it was a Jacka wha wha. I couldn’t help but laugh at the irony of our conversation.
As an aside, if you think puppies are expensive, wait for the vets bills to come in as they get older. Our 10yr old Westies did a cruciate ligament chasing a squirrel yesterday. Looking like the bill will be £2.5k. Hopefully the insurance will cover some if it. Mind you, he is worth every penny and much more besides.
moorx said:
The problem is not necessarily the existence of these 'designer crossbreeds' per se - and yes, they are crossbreeds/mongrels, no matter what anyone claims. Giving them made up names just allows breeders to charge a premium for them.
Surely, all recognised breeds were at some point 'designer crossbreeds' ?After all, isn't this how breeds such as Bullmastiffs evolved ?
I've a Rhodesian Ridgeback - a 'pedigree' dog; but they started out as a designer crossbreed and have only been accepted by the Kennel Club as a recognised breed, in the last 70-80 years.
Given the popularity of Cockapoos, Golden Doodles, Cavapoos etc., perhaps a breed 'standard' might emerge for each of these ?
pubrunner said:
moorx said:
The problem is not necessarily the existence of these 'designer crossbreeds' per se - and yes, they are crossbreeds/mongrels, no matter what anyone claims. Giving them made up names just allows breeders to charge a premium for them.
Surely, all recognised breeds were at some point 'designer crossbreeds' ?After all, isn't this how breeds such as Bullmastiffs evolved ?
I've a Rhodesian Ridgeback - a 'pedigree' dog; but they started out as a designer crossbreed and have only been accepted by the Kennel Club as a recognised breed, in the last 70-80 years.
Given the popularity of Cockapoos, Golden Doodles, Cavapoos etc., perhaps a breed 'standard' might emerge for each of these ?
pubrunner said:
moorx said:
The problem is not necessarily the existence of these 'designer crossbreeds' per se - and yes, they are crossbreeds/mongrels, no matter what anyone claims. Giving them made up names just allows breeders to charge a premium for them.
Surely, all recognised breeds were at some point 'designer crossbreeds' ?After all, isn't this how breeds such as Bullmastiffs evolved ?
I've a Rhodesian Ridgeback - a 'pedigree' dog; but they started out as a designer crossbreed and have only been accepted by the Kennel Club as a recognised breed, in the last 70-80 years.
Given the popularity of Cockapoos, Golden Doodles, Cavapoos etc., perhaps a breed 'standard' might emerge for each of these ?
My concern, as outlined in the rest of my original post, is about the indiscriminate and irresponsible breeding to fuel demand for these crossbreeds. When you've adopted a 3 year old ex-puppy farm dog who had to have eye drops for months because she was kept in the dark, was terrified of the outside world and didn't know how to walk on a lead, looked for escape routes where ever she was, had an untreated hernia (which was, ironically, probably her 'get out' because she was then no good for breeding) and who still - several years later - hates anyone reaching out for her from a standing position, it tends to colour your judgement a bit.
Red9zero said:
As an aside, if you think puppies are expensive, wait for the vets bills to come in as they get older. Our 10yr old Westies did a cruciate ligament chasing a squirrel yesterday. Looking like the bill will be £2.5k. Hopefully the insurance will cover some if it. Mind you, he is worth every penny and much more besides.
£2.5k on a 10 year old dog is a tricky decision ....... but that's the farmer in me ........ programmed from a young age to weigh up the cost/benefit analysis of the vet. I sometimes wonder if vet advice has changed over the years; practicality and common sense making way for income potential ........ although the way puppy prices have moved in the last 12 months the goal posts have also moved considerably, and probably future vet fees Longwool said:
Red9zero said:
As an aside, if you think puppies are expensive, wait for the vets bills to come in as they get older. Our 10yr old Westies did a cruciate ligament chasing a squirrel yesterday. Looking like the bill will be £2.5k. Hopefully the insurance will cover some if it. Mind you, he is worth every penny and much more besides.
£2.5k on a 10 year old dog is a tricky decision ....... but that's the farmer in me ........ programmed from a young age to weigh up the cost/benefit analysis of the vet. I sometimes wonder if vet advice has changed over the years; practicality and common sense making way for income potential ........ although the way puppy prices have moved in the last 12 months the goal posts have also moved considerably, and probably future vet fees 
Longwool said:
Good luck with the operation, hope it makes a full recovery.
Thanks. He is booked in for the 19th, which is the soonest they can do, as it is elective apparently. In the meantime as well as no walks, he is being lifted on and off chairs, over steps, up and down stairs and, as he sleeps on our bed for part of the night, I have removed the base of our bed and put the mattress on the floor, so he can get off and on during the night. Yes, he is extremely spoiled I posted earlier about our neighbours with the Bernadoodle.
Apparently the mother (Berner Sennen) was artificially inseminated by two different poodle dogs to give a mixed litter of mediums and large puppies.
Unfortunately unlike our friend Kez the Guru the neighbour didn’t provide video evidence of any of this.
Apparently the mother (Berner Sennen) was artificially inseminated by two different poodle dogs to give a mixed litter of mediums and large puppies.
Unfortunately unlike our friend Kez the Guru the neighbour didn’t provide video evidence of any of this.
Here we go. Sadly not surprisingly 
For the full article: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lockdown-pups-s...
For the full article: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lockdown-pups-s...
There will also be all the haflwits who 6 months ago thought “I’ll get a breeding bh and make a fortune”, suddenly left holding a load of puppies that there is no market for. A year ago, we were thinking of letting our GSD have a litter, and all this crazy stuff has completely put us off.
h and make a fortune”, suddenly left holding a load of puppies that there is no market for. A year ago, we were thinking of letting our GSD have a litter, and all this crazy stuff has completely put us off.Gassing Station | All Creatures Great & Small | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff