buying an apartment in spain
Discussion
swanseaboydan said:
The more I read , the more I’m tempted to rent . .
There is a lot to be said for that idea, at least at first. Also being ‘on the ground’ is a good way to find out about what properties are coming to market and, if bargain hunting, the distressed property sales. You might also decide the area is not for you…
Things worked out pretty well for me but I can see the risks I took and there is a lot to be said for renting, at least for a year. Usually pretty cheap if you can get a long term deal. That said, the 90 day rule means then you’ll only get the use of it for half the time which somehow seems more wasteful than buying it and only using it for half the time
Shnozz said:
swanseaboydan said:
The more I read , the more I’m tempted to rent . .
There is a lot to be said for that idea, at least at first. Also being ‘on the ground’ is a good way to find out about what properties are coming to market and, if bargain hunting, the distressed property sales. You might also decide the area is not for you…
Things worked out pretty well for me but I can see the risks I took and there is a lot to be said for renting, at least for a year. Usually pretty cheap if you can get a long term deal. That said, the 90 day rule means then you’ll only get the use of it for half the time which somehow seems more wasteful than buying it and only using it for half the time
So I reckon there will be a new market created for 90day lets? Like a halfway house between full rental and air B and B ?.
Service charges are fine if it means everything is looked after and maintained. We looked at a flat in london recently where the service charges were 12k a year - a lot now, but these things always go up too. Beautifully maintained building with pool gym etc etc but too Rich for me !
Service charges are fine if it means everything is looked after and maintained. We looked at a flat in london recently where the service charges were 12k a year - a lot now, but these things always go up too. Beautifully maintained building with pool gym etc etc but too Rich for me !
arfur said:
Maybe that new nomad wfh visa that's coming out negates that problem for a number of people - it's certainly useful to me !
There’s still a lot to learn about this new visa inc. tax arrangements and whether family is covered too. There have been suggestions that it’s an individual visa which won’t work unless you’re single.
swanseaboydan said:
So I reckon there will be a new market created for 90day lets? Like a halfway house between full rental and air B and B ?.
Service charges are fine if it means everything is looked after and maintained. We looked at a flat in london recently where the service charges were 12k a year - a lot now, but these things always go up too. Beautifully maintained building with pool gym etc etc but too Rich for me !
I wouldn't get your hopes up. IME, on the Costas at least, you're either doing lets by the week to holidayers - for big money, but big hassle too, or you are doing long term lets for less hassle and quite a bit less money. Long term in my book would be multiples of 6 months.Service charges are fine if it means everything is looked after and maintained. We looked at a flat in london recently where the service charges were 12k a year - a lot now, but these things always go up too. Beautifully maintained building with pool gym etc etc but too Rich for me !
Renting our place (with pool, 100m from the beach) would bring in more in a couple of weeks in August than renting long term for a year. As a landlord, a 3 month contract wouldn't float my boat. Too much hassle for the likely returns involved during the winter. Plus 3 months during the summer months would probably be unaffordable, as you'd have to charge the holiday rate.
swanseaboydan said:
So I reckon there will be a new market created for 90day lets? Like a halfway house between full rental and air B and B ?.
Service charges are fine if it means everything is looked after and maintained. We looked at a flat in london recently where the service charges were 12k a year - a lot now, but these things always go up too. Beautifully maintained building with pool gym etc etc but too Rich for me !
Requests for 3 month lets are common on the FB groups in my region of Spain. I find FB very useful for accessing local knowledge and information, both English and Spanish groups. Service charges are fine if it means everything is looked after and maintained. We looked at a flat in london recently where the service charges were 12k a year - a lot now, but these things always go up too. Beautifully maintained building with pool gym etc etc but too Rich for me !
Riff Raff said:
Renting our place (with pool, 100m from the beach) would bring in more in a couple of weeks in August than renting long term for a year. As a landlord, a 3 month contract wouldn't float my boat. Too much hassle for the likely returns involved during the winter. Plus 3 months during the summer months would probably be unaffordable, as you'd have to charge the holiday rate.
I’d make more renting mine for just 6 weeks in July and august as I’d make renting it on a 12 month contract. Summer rental rates are bonkers.
swanseaboydan said:
Same in the uk holiday towns - problem is a lot of places are empty all year round apart from about 10 weeks in the summer
Which is another careful consideration of where you buy in Spain. I wanted it vibrant over winter (or 'not dead' perhaps is a better description). Many of the smaller coastal resorts were just that, and then rammed so you cannot move in summer. I don't actually tend to visit a lot in the peak of summer as I enjoy that time in the UK. If I could be arsed with the hassle, I could probably make a years worth of long term let yield in those 3 peak months if I rented it on a week by week basis. If times were to get tough, perhaps I would consider it. But for now, its very much our home with wardrobes full, beers in the fridge and we fly in with only a laptop, wake up the next day and off we go. Packing it all down and stripping it of its homely possessions to make it a summer let would be a pain in the arse, albeit a profitable one.
Then there is the fact I would have to pay Spanish tax on rental income, get the appropriate licence from the town hall etc etc. Would also feel bad on our neighbours, who we have a great relationship with at present and a useful set of eyes and ears on the house if we need anything (and also the security aspect). I can imagine them being f
ked off with family after family of summertime renters making a load of noise.As a resident, this is the worst time of year! I don’t mid the heat, or that out pool is busier… but the traffic is a PITA!
We’ve never rented our place, but the new owners of the apartment above ours have gone back to Germany and rented theirs for the summer… or rather they have taken a one off payment from a guy who manages rentals here and in return he can rent it. Fortunately, the 3 groups that have been in it have been mostly no trouble… just one group of lads who I had to ask to keep the noise down at 6am!
The owners are lovely, and said to let them know if there are any issues with their renters, but our development isn’t really attractive to groups of younger people… the cab costs to get to and from Banus and Marbella to very night would rack up very quickly!!
We’ve never rented our place, but the new owners of the apartment above ours have gone back to Germany and rented theirs for the summer… or rather they have taken a one off payment from a guy who manages rentals here and in return he can rent it. Fortunately, the 3 groups that have been in it have been mostly no trouble… just one group of lads who I had to ask to keep the noise down at 6am!
The owners are lovely, and said to let them know if there are any issues with their renters, but our development isn’t really attractive to groups of younger people… the cab costs to get to and from Banus and Marbella to very night would rack up very quickly!!
mart 63 said:
eyebeebe said:
eyebeebe said:
Shnozz said:
Had an interesting chat over a bottle of brandy with mart63 last night about what’s needed over here in Spain to live a comfortable life. I’m only mid 40’s but certainly made me think. I say think but then we finished that bottle of brandy and not sure how much thinking I was capable of.
Would be interesting to see what you concluded…Below is my annual “essentials” spend projection for two of us (in Euro at today’s costs). Shopping is probably at the high end, but based on eating well and from markets etc
Council tax(suma and bins) €520
Insurance €384
Shopping(inc alcohol to top up bar) €5700
Internet €240
Water €320
Heating €240
Electricity €1200
Health insurance for 2 €1600
Mobile phones x3 €320
Internet TV €120
Car insurance €320
Car tax €110
This is to run a large 4 bed detached villa with pool and outside bar.
Edited by mart 63 on Tuesday 6th September 09:15
Edited by mart 63 on Tuesday 6th September 09:17
Shnozz said:
Hi mate - as mart said, we ended up having a quick chat about your figures over some food and drinks last night.
Obviously its different depending on areas, property size etc. Mart is full time resident too so has a better knowledge on figures but I would comment as follows:
My council tax is nearer €400 than €1k. Add on a few extras like bin tax etc but still under €500. Insurance is lower but only a few hundred so in the scheme of things negligible. Obviously both dependant on property values. I know mart's health insurance is way below your figure.
Electric of course might rise but your figure is high but not unheard of. Again, size of property will make a difference as will how you heat in winter. Many houses are electric only (we are) but of course you can fit other heating methods. mart fitted gas central heating which is cheap to run over winter. I fitted a log burner and so both methods mean electric use doesn't spike in colder months as it does in my UK place. Mid-summer is of course peak usage with air con going. You are probably being pessimistic but your estimate not a bad "worst case" scenario but depends what you have allocated in that as you have a separate heating allowance I note. I'd say the two combined will be less than your allowance only for electric.
Internet about right - I pay €33 PCM but that includes a mobile phone (SIM only). I think its €28 without.
Water - I pay nothing like your figure. I assume yours will include a pool but would still not expect it that high (unless you have a leak!). Again, mart being year round and with a pool is a better judge.
IT - well assume that is replacing equipment - subjective spends.
Banking - I get it free, as do many. You can either use an account from the likes of Wise (formerly Transferwise) that have the necessary IBAN numbers etc or several Spanish banks offer free banking if you jump through a few hoops. Mine for example require me to pay in at least €600PCM, have 2 direct debits attached to the account and I must invest a minimum of €100 with one of their investment products. I could in theory immediately withdraw that €100 back to my current account every month if I so wished. Many offer similar accounts to avoid the monthly charge. Oh, and on that front make sure you choose an account where the cost to draw a bankers draft is less. Some of them sting you for that badly - you can always close the account after buying a place and open one as you wish - but usually bankers draft is the way to pay for the property and being a % of the overal sum, get it wrong and it could cost you a lot of unnecessary cash.
Valuables insurance on top - no idea. I have "normal" house insurance but then have little of value
Mobile phone - see above. Mine is SIM only to be fair but adds €5PCM to the internet bill.
TV licence - indeed nil but allow €100 - €150 for the TV services a year.
Car insurance seems on high side for a run around. On my Audi it was about €350 this year a few weeks back. Car tax is peanuts as you say - mine was about €90 I think.
My other "large"ish annual bill is my community fees but that depends if you are on an urbanisation or not, obviously.
As for shopping, that is a huge budget here. We buy whatever we want and I would say a weekly shop of €60 would see you live well. €80 and it would be a trolley of luxury. We cooked paella for 8 last night with rabbit and chicken and I would say the ingredients were less than €20. And then of course booze which was about €4 a bottle of wine, beers at 12 cans for €7 (mart's were €3.50 for 12!). It's hard to spend big money. Also rememver that you will often end up eating out more due to the climate so less home shopping but a little more on the restaurants. Obviously everyone has different tastes and different budgets. We had a nice meal at a golf club near us on Saturday and it was €22 a head for mackerel, steak and then a dessert. The day before we had lunch and it was €1.80 for a gorgeous open tostada with olive oil and serrano chopped in front of us, washed back with a bottle of Alhambra that was €1.50. We had 4 beers, two ham toastados and on my Monzo app the bill for lunch showed £8.21!!
As I say, people have different tastes and you could wander in the Krug bar in Alicante and have little to show for €100. Likewise you can find remote Spanish places were its buttons. Ultimately, however, local wages are very low so prices are reflective of that in the costs of living. Worth having a look at household income
https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2019/01/18/ineng...
You will note at the bottom are many regions around Alicante and Murcia. You can take it from that costs of living in these parts has to reflect the locals (and can also see why sometimes there is said to be a touch of resentment to the foreigners who have come here - albeit I have never experienced anything of that in the 30 + years I have been a regular in the country other than the odd bit of graffiti on a roadside).
Thanks to both of you for those detailed replies. I've moved this conversation from the "enjoying retirement" topic as it's probably of limited interest to the majority.Obviously its different depending on areas, property size etc. Mart is full time resident too so has a better knowledge on figures but I would comment as follows:
My council tax is nearer €400 than €1k. Add on a few extras like bin tax etc but still under €500. Insurance is lower but only a few hundred so in the scheme of things negligible. Obviously both dependant on property values. I know mart's health insurance is way below your figure.
Electric of course might rise but your figure is high but not unheard of. Again, size of property will make a difference as will how you heat in winter. Many houses are electric only (we are) but of course you can fit other heating methods. mart fitted gas central heating which is cheap to run over winter. I fitted a log burner and so both methods mean electric use doesn't spike in colder months as it does in my UK place. Mid-summer is of course peak usage with air con going. You are probably being pessimistic but your estimate not a bad "worst case" scenario but depends what you have allocated in that as you have a separate heating allowance I note. I'd say the two combined will be less than your allowance only for electric.
Internet about right - I pay €33 PCM but that includes a mobile phone (SIM only). I think its €28 without.
Water - I pay nothing like your figure. I assume yours will include a pool but would still not expect it that high (unless you have a leak!). Again, mart being year round and with a pool is a better judge.
IT - well assume that is replacing equipment - subjective spends.
Banking - I get it free, as do many. You can either use an account from the likes of Wise (formerly Transferwise) that have the necessary IBAN numbers etc or several Spanish banks offer free banking if you jump through a few hoops. Mine for example require me to pay in at least €600PCM, have 2 direct debits attached to the account and I must invest a minimum of €100 with one of their investment products. I could in theory immediately withdraw that €100 back to my current account every month if I so wished. Many offer similar accounts to avoid the monthly charge. Oh, and on that front make sure you choose an account where the cost to draw a bankers draft is less. Some of them sting you for that badly - you can always close the account after buying a place and open one as you wish - but usually bankers draft is the way to pay for the property and being a % of the overal sum, get it wrong and it could cost you a lot of unnecessary cash.
Valuables insurance on top - no idea. I have "normal" house insurance but then have little of value
Mobile phone - see above. Mine is SIM only to be fair but adds €5PCM to the internet bill.
TV licence - indeed nil but allow €100 - €150 for the TV services a year.
Car insurance seems on high side for a run around. On my Audi it was about €350 this year a few weeks back. Car tax is peanuts as you say - mine was about €90 I think.
My other "large"ish annual bill is my community fees but that depends if you are on an urbanisation or not, obviously.
As for shopping, that is a huge budget here. We buy whatever we want and I would say a weekly shop of €60 would see you live well. €80 and it would be a trolley of luxury. We cooked paella for 8 last night with rabbit and chicken and I would say the ingredients were less than €20. And then of course booze which was about €4 a bottle of wine, beers at 12 cans for €7 (mart's were €3.50 for 12!). It's hard to spend big money. Also rememver that you will often end up eating out more due to the climate so less home shopping but a little more on the restaurants. Obviously everyone has different tastes and different budgets. We had a nice meal at a golf club near us on Saturday and it was €22 a head for mackerel, steak and then a dessert. The day before we had lunch and it was €1.80 for a gorgeous open tostada with olive oil and serrano chopped in front of us, washed back with a bottle of Alhambra that was €1.50. We had 4 beers, two ham toastados and on my Monzo app the bill for lunch showed £8.21!!
As I say, people have different tastes and you could wander in the Krug bar in Alicante and have little to show for €100. Likewise you can find remote Spanish places were its buttons. Ultimately, however, local wages are very low so prices are reflective of that in the costs of living. Worth having a look at household income
https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2019/01/18/ineng...
You will note at the bottom are many regions around Alicante and Murcia. You can take it from that costs of living in these parts has to reflect the locals (and can also see why sometimes there is said to be a touch of resentment to the foreigners who have come here - albeit I have never experienced anything of that in the 30 + years I have been a regular in the country other than the odd bit of graffiti on a roadside).
Some of my categories look a bit odd I guess because I've taken them from my Swiss budget, so things like valuables insurance are extra cover outside of the home for watches and IT is M365 etc. I think banking was based on a non-resident account with Sabadell, but that would change. Small beer really though.
Council tax is what we've been quoted for IBI by owners/agents for villas we have looked at. I seem to remember being told electricity was around €100 a month, so I may have already allowed for impending increases (can't 100% remember tbh). Water I thought was based on what I'd been told, but it does seem way out, which is a good thing.
Health Insurance was taking the top level offered on Spanish websites I've looked at. Having experienced the difference between the NHS and a private system offers in terms of waiting time, treatment like physio, I'm happy to pay.
Shopping seems to be where we are differing the most. Sad git that I am, when we were in an AirBnB for a couple of weeks last year x2, I itemised all of our shopping and we were averaging 140 a week, which is about the same as when we've been over this year. That's a mixture of shopping in Consum, Hiperber and Dia. That does include a reasonable amount of alcohol, but I can't see us drinking that much less in retirement
All in all though, I'm happy that I seem to be taking a conservative view of everything, so shouldn't expect any nasty surprises.
Funnily enough the mortgage broker we are using emailed by yesterday to see if we were still looking for somewhere. Definitely are, but there's nothing particularly interesting on the market at the moment. Still waiting for some post-summer movement.
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