Who's going skiing and where 2020
Discussion
feef said:
If I can get a rental revenue sufficient to cover the costs of the annual building fees, insurance and taxes, then I'd be happy with that.
That should be possible, certainly somewhere close to town. Half term and holidays rentals should cover all the costs, allowing you to enjoy the less busy weeks for free. Talk to a local agent in the resort you're looking at and they'll be honest about prices/demand etc. You are best getting them to manage it for you anyway, so engaging them early on is not a bad thing. Condi said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
Whenever I "do the numbers" (usually after a beer) all I conclude is buying in the alps is pretty much one of the worst investment decisions you can make. Simply because you are liable for all of the risks of owning a property, the fact that ownership rules and local taxes can change on a political whim, and the yield most of these properties generate is poor compared to the cost of the asset.
Far better from a financial point of view to invest in pretty much anything else and use the profit to rent the type of place you want, when you want it.
It depends on what value you place on having your own pad, to use when you like. Not everything has to be justified simply in terms of money. Far better from a financial point of view to invest in pretty much anything else and use the profit to rent the type of place you want, when you want it.
Once you can choose your own weeks, fly hand luggage only, and still manage to rent it out for 2 months of the season then while it might not make much, it will comfortably cover the costs and basically allow you to ski for free. As a rental property your flights out there can be offset against tax too (checking the property), and any work is tax deductible.
Ownership rules and taxes can change for any asset, be that a property in the UK, pensions, stocks and shares etc. A place in the alps is no more or less at risk of that than anywhere else, is it?
As for investment, in pounds return probably but then again I've had 3 weeks & 4 long weekend skiing this year & will have 3 weeks in the summer out there. Total cost to me once you subtract the rental income £5k , how much was your family ski break + summer holiday
Parents bought accom 20yrs ago in Morzine and immediately gifted it to three brothers. My dad rang me at Uni and said I need you to fly to Geneva tomorrow to meet a Notaire, then fly home. It's in your interest. OK dad!
It's gone up x8 in value since
Everyone skis for free and the leftover weeks generate €€€ on Airbnb.
It's gone up x8 in value since
Everyone skis for free and the leftover weeks generate €€€ on Airbnb.
In my experience, having previously worked in alpine property rentals for many years, the higher returns would always be the chalet/apartment as close as possible to the resort and lifts/slopes.
The thought for many of having to catch a ski bus/drive or walk to the lifts will likely impact on your ability to let the property and naturally impact on what you can charge.
Out of interest, which resorts are you considering?
The thought for many of having to catch a ski bus/drive or walk to the lifts will likely impact on your ability to let the property and naturally impact on what you can charge.
Out of interest, which resorts are you considering?
JonnyJustice said:
In my experience, having previously worked in alpine property rentals for many years, the higher returns would always be the chalet/apartment as close as possible to the resort and lifts/slopes.
The thought for many of having to catch a ski bus/drive or walk to the lifts will likely impact on your ability to let the property and naturally impact on what you can charge.
Out of interest, which resorts are you considering?
St Jean d'Aulps/La Grande Terche/Roc d'Enfer for somewhere that's ski-in-ski out (although I recognise it's not the highest resort, but still, the gondola is right there if it's a bit green lower down). Bus or a very short drive to Ardent.The thought for many of having to catch a ski bus/drive or walk to the lifts will likely impact on your ability to let the property and naturally impact on what you can charge.
Out of interest, which resorts are you considering?
Or Le Biot : the tiny old resort of Col du Corbier went bust in the late 90's but there's some new developments there in all-year-round activities. It's 'station de trail' status is interesting for me as a trail runner in the summer. The old pistes are still there between the trees so makes for a perfect day-touring destination : skin up and ski down the old pistes. It's still on the bus-route to Morzine/Ardent as well as being a short drive to La Chapelle d'Abondonce and Chatel. Property is incredibly cheap in comparison.
They're both handy for Geneva which means very easy to get to, and I like the area in the summer as much as in the winter. Swimming in Lac Montriond is particularly nice.
Condi said:
It depends on what value you place on having your own pad, to use when you like. Not everything has to be justified simply in terms of money.
Once you can choose your own weeks, fly hand luggage only, and still manage to rent it out for 2 months of the season then while it might not make much, it will comfortably cover the costs and basically allow you to ski for free. As a rental property your flights out there can be offset against tax too (checking the property), and any work is tax deductible.
Ownership rules and taxes can change for any asset, be that a property in the UK, pensions, stocks and shares etc. A place in the alps is no more or less at risk of that than anywhere else, is it?
On your first point, I rented a place for 6 months last year and managed nearly 90 days skiing over the season as a result, so I understand the benefits of having your own base.Once you can choose your own weeks, fly hand luggage only, and still manage to rent it out for 2 months of the season then while it might not make much, it will comfortably cover the costs and basically allow you to ski for free. As a rental property your flights out there can be offset against tax too (checking the property), and any work is tax deductible.
Ownership rules and taxes can change for any asset, be that a property in the UK, pensions, stocks and shares etc. A place in the alps is no more or less at risk of that than anywhere else, is it?
In terms of letting, many places will easily let Xmas and New Year weeks, plus Half Term week and maybe 1 or perhaps 2 weeks at Easter. Outside of those weeks it comes down to if you have somewhere with a superb location, how good your marketing/photography skills are and how flexible you want to be with pricing.
My personal issue with buying is when it becomes an investment. I've checked some prices on places I was interested in and actual sale prices haven't moved much in the last decade (although that was on a small sample) but it makes me believe that large appreciation in prices is unlikely.
When you say you can ski for free, you aren't taking into account the capital tied up. From a financial point of view, it is better to rent a place for a season, keep your own capital doing whatever it is doing, and leave the ownership problems of an overseas property to someone else. That's all in my opinion of course.
malks222 said:
wrencho said:
We always ski in Chamonix. Planning two weeks next year. My youngest is disabled so we have a sit ski and instructor for him (which he loves and he was featured on Ski Sunday this week so he is effectively a celebrity!! 
)
awesome!!! i absolutely love seeing everyone enjoying snow sports. I guess your logistics are a bit tougher, but on the slope your boy will get the exact same feeling and enjoyment as we all do on the slopes. )as for skiing at easter- wouldn’t worry about it, pick a resort with high enough slopes if you are really worried but it’ll be fine.
I was in Garmisch last season on ‘closing’ weekend (end of march) and it was awesome. perfect bluebird days, nice and warm for sitting out at lunch. enjoyable to walk about town later in day. still tons of snow with top to bottom riding.
now don’t get me wrong, the snow was very spring like, getting quite warm and slushed up later in the day. but for some standard piste skiing, cruising around, it was definitely better than the -15deg, zero vis flat light days you get in january!
most ski resorts close because it’s not commercially viable with skier numbers not because of lack of snow.
Last year I skied until the first weekend in May here in St. Moritz. The snow was excellent, very spring-like so worth getting out early and leaving just after lunch. We had heavy snowfall in April so I got some of my best skiing in late in the season. There were few people around though a fair number of ski-tourers walking up.
This year we had about 1m of snow in the village in November and I guess that has supplied most of the snow we have at the moment. It's been the driest winter on record here I believe. The pistes are in good condition though hard and 'polished' in a few places. Very little ice. Off piste isn't up to much though. Hopefully we'll get some fresh snow soon.
If you want to go late the trick is to go high. Here the village is at 1750m and most of the skiing is about the tree-line.
feef said:
JonnyJustice said:
In my experience, having previously worked in alpine property rentals for many years, the higher returns would always be the chalet/apartment as close as possible to the resort and lifts/slopes.
The thought for many of having to catch a ski bus/drive or walk to the lifts will likely impact on your ability to let the property and naturally impact on what you can charge.
Out of interest, which resorts are you considering?
St Jean d'Aulps/La Grande Terche/Roc d'Enfer for somewhere that's ski-in-ski out (although I recognise it's not the highest resort, but still, the gondola is right there if it's a bit green lower down). Bus or a very short drive to Ardent.The thought for many of having to catch a ski bus/drive or walk to the lifts will likely impact on your ability to let the property and naturally impact on what you can charge.
Out of interest, which resorts are you considering?
Or Le Biot : the tiny old resort of Col du Corbier went bust in the late 90's but there's some new developments there in all-year-round activities. It's 'station de trail' status is interesting for me as a trail runner in the summer. The old pistes are still there between the trees so makes for a perfect day-touring destination : skin up and ski down the old pistes. It's still on the bus-route to Morzine/Ardent as well as being a short drive to La Chapelle d'Abondonce and Chatel. Property is incredibly cheap in comparison.
They're both handy for Geneva which means very easy to get to, and I like the area in the summer as much as in the winter. Swimming in Lac Montriond is particularly nice.
I’d say you may struggle to attract many guests to stay at le Biot, unless the property was extremely competitively priced. It’s not a well known place so the marketing won’t be straightforward.
The other resort naturally has a lot more to offer, ie 50km of slopes and although it has access to the PdS, the challenge to you from a rental perspective will be the hundreds of other rentals in/near Morzine that you’ll be competing against, particularly as the default guest preference is to be in the heart of town.
Good luck with it either way, hope you find somewhere which works well! We are looking to buy too, but in the south.
Wingo said:
Speed 3 said:
Anyone know of a permanent timed slalom area in Morzine/Avoriaz/Les Gets ?
My daughter is doing GCSE P.E. and we need some video footage on our upcoming trip. The standard skills tests are fine but they need evidence of a "competitive" run and timed and/or competed slalom is suggested. We've not been to the PdS before so would be good to know if there is somewhere we can do it.
Mont Chery side of Les gets, there is a dual slalom course set up. Maybe more giant slalom that slalom. Only about half a dozen gates but has a proper start gate and timing system open to all FOC. Up the telecabine then up again on the chair lift. Been blitzed on it by my lad on it too many times to mention now unless he makes a mistakeMy daughter is doing GCSE P.E. and we need some video footage on our upcoming trip. The standard skills tests are fine but they need evidence of a "competitive" run and timed and/or competed slalom is suggested. We've not been to the PdS before so would be good to know if there is somewhere we can do it.
Edited by Speed 3 on Thursday 20th February 20:38
I assume you check sites like this - https://www.j2ski.com/snow_forecast/France/The_Thr...
JonnyJustice said:
It sounds, from what you’re saying, that this is more a property purchase which you can enjoy personally, rather than purely focusing on generating a healthy return from the investment?
Very much so. Any return would be a nice-to-have, and if it can cover the maintenance, insurance and taxes then even better.Just got back from 5 days in Borovets (Bulgaria) so I thought I would share my thoughts. In the past I've been to Arinsal (Andorra), Soll (Austria), Engelberg (Switzerland), Val Gardena and Alta Badia (Italy) so I've got those resorts to compare it to.
If anyone else is going or has any questions I am happy to answer them
- It's very good value (this is the main reason that we went there given we had to go in half term). A beer is generally less than £3 wherever you go and a decent lunch/dinner is less than £20 including a drink.
- It is a very easy drive from Sofia - takes under 90 minutes and it is basically a single road the whole way
- It wasn't as busy as I expected (the queue for the gondola was the worst one and we never queued for more than 25 minutes and that was only first thing). Despite the small number of lifts the queues never really got too big
- There are a lot of places to go out to eat/drink very close to the bottom of the pistes. The resort is a proper "ski-in/out" and it is easy to find a cheap hotel less than 5 minutes walk from the lifts
- The skiing is pretty good and varied, with some reasonably long runs from a single lift - my main annoyance was the fact that on the Sitnyakovo side the long green run cuts across most of the other runs meaning your flow is disrupted quite a bit and you have to focus on not building up too much speed
- I would say 3 intense days of skiing or 4 relaxed days of skiiing is the right amount of time to go for, rather than 5 days like we did
- The gondola is in need of replacement - it's really old and each cabin only holds 6 people. It takes 25 minutes to go from the bottom to the top and is the only real way to access the main side of the resort from the village
- Other than the gondola the lifts are pretty good however at high altitude the lifts are mostly drag lifts, one of which is really steep! The 4 man chair at the top is also fixed so that's a pretty slow lift
If anyone else is going or has any questions I am happy to answer them
Killing time at Geneva airport before the flight home. Just an update of stuff in the Chamonix area. Absolutely glorious weather, blue skys, warm, not a breath of wind. Sadly it’s not so good news for the snow 
The pisteures are doing a great job overnight but it’s boilerplate first thing, OK around 11:00, and then spring porridge in the afternoon. If I’d been beamed down and asked to guess the date I’d have said ‘mid-April’. Rental car thermometer said 8 degrees in Chamonix last night (yea, at night!) - warm enough to sit outside without heating. It said -1 from being left overnight. And +1 when I started driving at 8:00. Leaving early to get to the airport it was saying +16 in Chamonix as I left at mid-day.
I travelled about a bit to find decent snow and I think St Gervais/Megève was probably best as you could move around as the sun hit different runs. Grand Montets was OK for a couple of hours but the runs became unbearably busy as no-one was skiing off piste as the snow was frozen. I guess maybe the keen types skinning-up might have found something decent but the lift-served stuff was rock hard. It’s possible to ski down to Argentierre but real porridgey after mid morning.
Obviously no skiing down to Chamonix off Flegere; it looks like they could open the golf course pretty soon!
But, I had a great time ‘spring skiing’ in the sun; I just didn’t expect it in February.
Obviously there’s still time for another dump, but even with what’s there I think the pistey-guys can keep things going for a good while longer especially with artificial snow so still some decent sliding to be had especially if you get some altitude.
The pisteures are doing a great job overnight but it’s boilerplate first thing, OK around 11:00, and then spring porridge in the afternoon. If I’d been beamed down and asked to guess the date I’d have said ‘mid-April’. Rental car thermometer said 8 degrees in Chamonix last night (yea, at night!) - warm enough to sit outside without heating. It said -1 from being left overnight. And +1 when I started driving at 8:00. Leaving early to get to the airport it was saying +16 in Chamonix as I left at mid-day. I travelled about a bit to find decent snow and I think St Gervais/Megève was probably best as you could move around as the sun hit different runs. Grand Montets was OK for a couple of hours but the runs became unbearably busy as no-one was skiing off piste as the snow was frozen. I guess maybe the keen types skinning-up might have found something decent but the lift-served stuff was rock hard. It’s possible to ski down to Argentierre but real porridgey after mid morning.
Obviously no skiing down to Chamonix off Flegere; it looks like they could open the golf course pretty soon!
But, I had a great time ‘spring skiing’ in the sun; I just didn’t expect it in February.
Obviously there’s still time for another dump, but even with what’s there I think the pistey-guys can keep things going for a good while longer especially with artificial snow so still some decent sliding to be had especially if you get some altitude.
I am heading to Val d'isere for my first ever skiing holiday with some friends next week. Really looking forward to it. Have had a few lessons at the Snow Centre in Hemel so I can do basic turns and get down from the top without falling now. 
Going to get signed up for ski school for the week to hopefully improve. Any tips or knowledge I should have (that isn't on beginner skiing guides...) gratefully received.
Going to get signed up for ski school for the week to hopefully improve. Any tips or knowledge I should have (that isn't on beginner skiing guides...) gratefully received. Gassing Station | Holidays & Travel | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff