How bad is flying economy these days?

[GT03ROB]

paralla said:

I'd need to request approval from Occ. health before booking or flying economy with a duration of more than four hours for work because it would be a deviation from the travel policy.

What would be their criteria for not approving economy?

[The G Kid]

ATG said:

There's only one problem with that theory. It is complete bks. Business class is a racket perpertrated on companies by the airlines. Employees get bribed with air miles by the airline to spend their company's money on unnecessarily expensive air travel. The airlines also blow smoke up their passengers' arses by telling them they're super-valued special people, proving it to them by letting them sit in a special room shared with only 300 other people, eating free peanuts, drinking free booze ... "free" in the sense of "paid for by your company". The idea that blowing several thousand more than necessary in order to sit in a bigger chair and eat slightly different food liberates several thousand quid's worth of additional productivity is, I think, a little unconvincing.

On long haul it's not really just a bigger chair though, it's generally a lie flat bed which means you get a proper kip. Whether an approximate extra 2K. (obviously depending on the route) is worth it for a better sleep is debatable, and depends on a lot of factors.

[Portia5]

sam.rog said:

Cant you charter a flight?

Chartering a light jet/vlj split between a few isn't nearly as dear as many probably imagine.

[RoamingBull]

Seems to be the case since the meltdown that bags are extra on schedule lines and the offer of lounges when booking.
The food onboard is unpalatable and the wine that’s on offer I’ve thrown better on my chips.

I’m fairly frequent flyer but my points get me Jack st anymore.
Unfortunately our flight last week was bks being in eco extra. Cross between a crèche and smokers corner.
If it wasnt a kid crying it was someone spreading their germs on everyone.
Seems though folk with children don’t hear them.

And Bingo we were wrecked when we got home and now full of cold.
Love my holidays it’s just the getting there.

[paralla]

GT03ROB said:

paralla said:

I'd need to request approval from Occ. health before booking or flying economy with a duration of more than four hours for work because it would be a deviation from the travel policy.

What would be their criteria for not approving economy?

I’ve never requested it so I don’t know

I’d rather delay a business trip and wait for availability in business (or not travel at all) than travel economy when work is happy to pay for business

[DT1975]

timbo72909 said:

Some background - in standard PH director style we only ever fly business (or premium as an absolute worst case), last time I flew economy was short haul about 20 years ago.

Now I've found an absolute bargain trip and five star hotel in the Seychelles but economy flights only are available (last minute booking).

Is long haul economy actually tolerable for PH director level people which could be worth it for such a bargain trip, or will it ruin the experience because basic economy is so terrible?

Who are you flying with ?

I know some very wealthy people who fly economy, which may be why they're wealthy :-)

Economy on some long haul airlines is perfectly acceptable, even TUI economy has a decent seat pitch for example and service but it really depends on the plane. Virgin were shocking on our trip to Antigua last year, we did PE on the way back - still not good. BA are so so, Turkish are decent as are Qatar and Emirates but depends on the plane itself.

I need leg room due to my height, those that don't can probably put up with anything.

[Griffith4ever]

DT1975 said:

I know some very wealthy people who fly economy, which may be why they're wealthy :-)

.

i know at least one person who fits that bill. Its quite common it seems. They obsess about amassing wealth and getting good value.... and miss out the fact they are wealthy and can live better.

Many super wealthy people are tight. That's not what makes them wealthy, its just a bi-product of their personality that made them wealthy.

You really can't take it with you.

[StevieBee]

ATG said:

StevieBee said:

m3jappa said:

I struggle to understand where people get the money from tbh (unless their company is paying for it).

Every time i have looked it is thousands extra. Even premium economy can be quite a chunk more.

fk that. I would rather stay somewhere nicer or stay longer etc.

The clue's in the name. It's primarily a service for business travellers. The space and comfort allows you to work while you travel or work better, sooner once you arrive. This can have profound and measurable economic benefit to those business people, their clients and/or their company so the price they pay is less of a 'cost' and more of an 'investment'.

There's only one problem with that theory. It is complete bks. Business class is a racket perpertrated on companies by the airlines. Employees get bribed with air miles by the airline to spend their company's money on unnecessarily expensive air travel. The airlines also blow smoke up their passengers' arses by telling them they're super-valued special people, proving it to them by letting them sit in a special room shared with only 300 other people, eating free peanuts, drinking free booze ... "free" in the sense of "paid for by your company". The idea that blowing several thousand more than necessary in order to sit in a bigger chair and eat slightly different food liberates several thousand quid's worth of additional productivity is, I think, a little unconvincing.

Why have you got a TVR? That's complete bks as well, isn't it? What's wrong with a Focus or Fiesta. You'll still get to where you're going on the same road and at less cost too. Sure, it won't be as much fun but that's also unconvincing isn't it? How much fun can you really have on the roads?

(I'm just making a point - I have an Elise so the same equally applies to me!)

The point is that Business Class is not bks nor a racket. It you can afford it or get it, it's a nice thing to have. But not the end of the world if not.

As a business owner that travels frequently, I can assure you that I am regularly able to walk off a business class flight having earned more money than the cost of the flight as a result of the billable work I have been able to do in transit that would have been impossible to have done in economy.

[captain_cynic]

StevieBee said:

ATG said:

StevieBee said:

m3jappa said:

I struggle to understand where people get the money from tbh (unless their company is paying for it).

Every time i have looked it is thousands extra. Even premium economy can be quite a chunk more.

fk that. I would rather stay somewhere nicer or stay longer etc.

The clue's in the name. It's primarily a service for business travellers. The space and comfort allows you to work while you travel or work better, sooner once you arrive. This can have profound and measurable economic benefit to those business people, their clients and/or their company so the price they pay is less of a 'cost' and more of an 'investment'.

There's only one problem with that theory. It is complete bks. Business class is a racket perpertrated on companies by the airlines. Employees get bribed with air miles by the airline to spend their company's money on unnecessarily expensive air travel. The airlines also blow smoke up their passengers' arses by telling them they're super-valued special people, proving it to them by letting them sit in a special room shared with only 300 other people, eating free peanuts, drinking free booze ... "free" in the sense of "paid for by your company". The idea that blowing several thousand more than necessary in order to sit in a bigger chair and eat slightly different food liberates several thousand quid's worth of additional productivity is, I think, a little unconvincing.

Why have you got a TVR? That's complete bks as well, isn't it? What's wrong with a Focus or Fiesta. You'll still get to where you're going on the same road and at less cost too. Sure, it won't be as much fun but that's also unconvincing isn't it? How much fun can you really have on the roads?

(I'm just making a point - I have an Elise so the same equally applies to me!)

The point is that Business Class is not bks nor a racket. It you can afford it or get it, it's a nice thing to have. But not the end of the world if not.

As a business owner that travels frequently, I can assure you that I am regularly able to walk off a business class flight having earned more money than the cost of the flight as a result of the billable work I have been able to do in transit that would have been impossible to have done in economy.

I largely agree with you but you've got to remember that not all business class seats are equal.

Most Euro business class seats are the same Recaro CL3710's you get in economy but have slightly more leg room and the middle seat blocked out by a plastic tray. Not really worth the premium for a flight that might be 3 hours long.

A long haul business seat can be much better being wider, having more features and being made from better materials (I.E. have an actual cushion). This depends on the airline, A Singapore Airlines seat is top of the line, Lufthansa far less so. Someone like China Eastern are bottom of the barrel so it's little wonder that Singapore costs a fortune whilst China Eastern is barely more than economy on SQ.

I can understand how those who've never flown long haul can think that Business class is a racket.

However I completely agree that when time is money, being frugal can cost far more than it saves.

I've never been able to sleep on planes, not even on SQ business class with the aid of a temazepam. I always try to time my flights to arrive in the late afternoon or early evening so I can pretty much get to bed at a normalish bed time (and get up adjusted to my new time zone). Especially when flying for work. I get paid for the flight time but not to spend a day recovering.

[85Carrera]

paralla said:

I'd need to request approval from Occ. health before booking or flying economy with a duration of more than four hours for work because it would be a deviation from the travel policy.

Quite right too. If you’re flying for work and likely doing a fairly short turnaround and working in between, you shouldn’t have to fly economy.

And personally, 4 hours is about my limit before going business class (premium economy is a waste of money and *controversy alert* designed to entice those who PCP cars they can’t afford who want their fellow travellers (no, not the ones with dags) to think that they’re “doing well” (cf having what is effectively a leased Evoque/generic German brand that used to be premium on the driveway to impress the neighbours)

[h0b0]

GT03ROB said:

Griffith4ever said:

In contrast we saw the cabin crew in BC (Finnair) pouring all the half opened bottles of champagne, spritis etc down the toilet loo when landing. Guess they can't have part opened bottles between flights?

The decent BA crews don't do that. Out come the plastic glasses, filled to the brim with whatever is still in the bottles. Or if they only have the small bottles "Here take a couple for your journey home"

It may be for tax reasons. This is why some airlines have different champagne for when you are waiting to take off and when you are in flight. On the ground they have to pay tax.

[captain_cynic]

h0b0 said:

It may be for tax reasons. This is why some airlines have different champagne for when you are waiting to take off and when you are in flight. On the ground they have to pay tax.

Also pressure affects taste. Champs that may taste good on the ground can be foul when the cabin is pressurised (usually around 6,000-8,000 ft).

Good airlines take that into account with food and bev, bad ones don't.

[GT03ROB]

85Carrera said:

paralla said:

I'd need to request approval from Occ. health before booking or flying economy with a duration of more than four hours for work because it would be a deviation from the travel policy.

Quite right too. If you’re flying for work and likely doing a fairly short turnaround and working in between, you shouldn’t have to fly economy.

And personally, 4 hours is about my limit before going business class (premium economy is a waste of money and *controversy alert* designed to entice those who PCP cars they can’t afford who want their fellow travellers (no, not the ones with dags) to think that they’re “doing well” (cf having what is effectively a leased Evoque/generic German brand that used to be premium on the driveway to impress the neighbours)

Its quite a contentious one and the approach I suspect varies industry to industry. My ex-wife was the UK tax director for a major Japanese consumer electronics company. I was amazed when I found out she had to fly economy to Japan for meetings. Most of our clients are business all the way LH & SH, but mandate economy for us when paying.

A good number of businesses will only do economy. I do 6hr flights in economy every month, its really no big deal. Any of our employees that refused would get short shrift from me.

I've done 13hrs to Singapore in economy, got off the plane 7am, hotel by 8am showered/changed, fab shop by 9am, back to hotel 5pm, on the plane 1am back to London in economy. My presence here would suggest it was survivable!

It can be an interesting conversation also wit those that say they have to have business class. The argument can be bad for health, DVT, etc. Then you ask them what class they flew to Thailand on their last holiday.....ah so why if its so bad for you did you fly economy?

When i worked in India, I had a boss who offered me a deal. You can fly business or economy back to the UK for business trips. If you fly business its straight there & back, if you want a couple of days at home you fly economy. Your choice.

[Griffith4ever]

85Carrera said:

Quite right too. If you’re flying for work and likely doing a fairly short turnaround and working in between, you shouldn’t have to fly economy.

And personally, 4 hours is about my limit before going business class (premium economy is a waste of money and *controversy alert* designed to entice those who PCP cars they can’t afford who want their fellow travellers (no, not the ones with dags) to think that they’re “doing well” (cf having what is effectively a leased Evoque/generic German brand that used to be premium on the driveway to impress the neighbours)

made me lol :-) But on the whole, you are wrong. Sure, PE usually has a couple collecting every slipper, toothbrush and eye blind available to take as souvenirs (they collect up the noise cancelling headphones at the end of the flight in PE which should tell you something..) but on the whole it's a great compromise between basic and luxury that meets a lot of people's budget. Very dependent on airlines though, and routes/planes. Prob the best bits are it mostly filters out parents with toddlers, you can recline properly, proper leg room, and you dont end up with your adjacent's arm on your arm. The food is normally economy with the lid removed for you and real cutlery :-)

[djc206]

85Carrera said:

Quite right too. If you’re flying for work and likely doing a fairly short turnaround and working in between, you shouldn’t have to fly economy.

And personally, 4 hours is about my limit before going business class (premium economy is a waste of money and *controversy alert* designed to entice those who PCP cars they can’t afford who want their fellow travellers (no, not the ones with dags) to think that they’re “doing well” (cf having what is effectively a leased Evoque/generic German brand that used to be premium on the driveway to impress the neighbours)

If you fly premium or just take a wander down there next time you’re on board a plane and fancy looking down your nose at someone you’ll notice it’s generally occupied by middle aged couples. The sort of people who have a little bit of money but not loads and value their comfort. You’re far more likely to find some wearing a pair of Merrells and Chinos reading a physical broadsheet in premium than you are someone who drives an evoque which has just been “valet parked” in a field in Berkshire.

Premium can make sense for day flights if you’re tall or you have dicky knees.

[djc206]

Griffith4ever said:

made me lol :-) But on the whole, you are wrong. Sure, PE usually has a couple collecting every slipper, toothbrush and eye blind available to take as souvenirs (they collect up the noise cancelling headphones at the end of the flight in PE which should tell you something..) but on the whole it's a great compromise between basic and luxury that meets a lot of people's budget. Very dependent on airlines though, and routes/planes. Prob the best bits are it mostly filters out parents with toddlers, you can recline properly, proper leg room, and you dont end up with your adjacent's arm on your arm. The food is normally economy with the lid removed for you and real cutlery :-)

BA premium is the business class menu but minus the presentation.

[ATG]

StevieBee said:

Why have you got a TVR? That's complete bks as well, isn't it? What's wrong with a Focus or Fiesta. You'll still get to where you're going on the same road and at less cost too. Sure, it won't be as much fun but that's also unconvincing isn't it? How much fun can you really have on the roads?

(I'm just making a point - I have an Elise so the same equally applies to me!)

The point is that Business Class is not bks nor a racket. It you can afford it or get it, it's a nice thing to have. But not the end of the world if not.

As a business owner that travels frequently, I can assure you that I am regularly able to walk off a business class flight having earned more money than the cost of the flight as a result of the billable work I have been able to do in transit that would have been impossible to have done in economy.

Sure, if you want to spend your own money that way, that is absolutely fine, and if there's a genuine return that you can earn by doing so, then well done (genuinely). But I rather doubt you are a typical traveller. When you look around the cabin, you don't see much evidence of work going on. Most people are either frittering away the time or sleeping, just like they're doing in slightly less comfort in economy. I like the "perk" of business travel and I don't insist that our travel people book me in the cargo hold, but it is nonetheless obvious that we as passengers are getting bribed with air miles and other perks to encourage our firms to pay way over the odds for air travel.

[toasty]

Having just boarded a flight to Tenerife with a large contingent of the traveling community, it’s going swimmingly. Deep mahogany fake tans, Elizabeth Dukes finest jewellery, feral children, dads on their phones to the bookies and the ubiquitous trail of litter. Yup everything is present and correct.

[Griffith4ever]

djc206 said:

If you fly premium or just take a wander down there next time you’re on board a plane and fancy looking down your nose at someone you’ll notice it’s generally occupied by middle aged couples. The sort of people who have a little bit of money but not loads and value their comfort. You’re far more likely to find some wearing a pair of Merrells and Chinos reading a physical broadsheet in premium than you are someone who drives an evoque which has just been “valet parked” in a field in Berkshire.

Premium can make sense for day flights if you’re tall or you have dicky knees.

Made me laugh out loud. The Merrels are in my luggage. The "Chinos" are M&S Stretchables - perfect for travelling and pack up light (and yes, I'm middle aged, well, passed that landmark a little while back).

Heathrow T4

[RoamingBull]

toasty said:

Having just boarded a flight to Tenerife with a large contingent of the traveling community, it’s going swimmingly. Deep mahogany fake tans, Elizabeth Dukes finest jewellery, feral children, dads on their phones to the bookies and the ubiquitous trail of litter. Yup everything is present and correct.

Don’t think I could do a charter flight anymore. Saying that scheduled ones are just as bad as stated last week.

Oh the joys of travel.