Turkey - any reason not to?
Discussion
StevieBee said:
bodhi said:
The wife and I have fallen in love with Cyprus for all sorts of reasons, and the one thing that would stop us going to Turkey and spending money there is their continued occupation of Northern Cyprus and the devastation and ghost cities they've left around Famagusta - we just wouldn't be entirely comfortable filling the Turkish Government's coffers whilst we were there.
You really need to read up on the history of Cyprus. Turkey are not without fault. But nor are the Greeks or the British. But to adopt a knee-jerk opinion that 'Turkey is bad' view is to miss an exceptionally complex issue that paints a slightly different picture to the popular narrative. Whilst no party in the issue were faultless, it was Turkey's second invasion in 1974 after the Greek junta had already collapsed which made them international pariahs - the first invasion was entirely legal and within Turkey's rights. Going back to take half the island and leaving thousands dead or wounded and displacing thousands more wasn't and Turkey were rightly castigated for it. Probably why Turkey are still seen as an occupying force and one of the main reasons why thery haven't been accepted into the EU.
However as noted those are our personal reasons for not especially wanting to visit Turkey - however we know lots of friends who have visited (and loved it) which we have absolutely no issue with, and we haven't completely ruled out a trip to Instanbul.
We were asked though for reasons we wouldn't visit Turkey, and for us that's Cyprus. YMMV etc, and it seems a bit more rational than not going because there might be Russians there
popeyewhite said:
Thing is, your rudeness is misplaced. I mean firstly your manners reinforce his decision and secondly others will share his opinion. Reasoning not your strong point I'd guess... .
People who share this opinion are free to go elsewhere. Plenty of other tourists will still visit Turkey.sparkyhx said:
I'd no more go to Turkey with Ergogan in power than Russia with Putin and pretty much any middle east country. Probably not a popular opinion, but beliefs and sense of 'fairness' for want of a better word mean I personally will not entertain these locations as a holiday destinations. Even India under Modi is becoming no go for me.
Last time I checked, Turkey is not a middle east country.sparkyhx said:
Your Dad said:
sparkyhx said:
I'd no more go to Turkey with Ergogan in power than Russia with Putin and pretty much any middle east country. Probably not a popular opinion, but beliefs and sense of 'fairness' for want of a better word mean I personally will not entertain these locations as a holiday destinations. Even India under Modi is becoming no go for me.
Would you also boycott the US if/when Trump gets back in?By not going there Who do think is going to directly suffer more, will it be Ergogan or will it be the ordinary citizen's who rely on the tourist industry?
aturnick54 said:
sparkyhx said:
I'd no more go to Turkey with Ergogan in power than Russia with Putin and pretty much any middle east country. Probably not a popular opinion, but beliefs and sense of 'fairness' for want of a better word mean I personally will not entertain these locations as a holiday destinations. Even India under Modi is becoming no go for me.
Last time I checked, Turkey is not a middle east country.Leptons said:
sparkyhx said:
Your Dad said:
sparkyhx said:
I'd no more go to Turkey with Ergogan in power than Russia with Putin and pretty much any middle east country. Probably not a popular opinion, but beliefs and sense of 'fairness' for want of a better word mean I personally will not entertain these locations as a holiday destinations. Even India under Modi is becoming no go for me.
Would you also boycott the US if/when Trump gets back in?By not going there Who do think is going to directly suffer more, will it be Ergogan or will it be the ordinary citizen's who rely on the tourist industry?
I'm not forcing it on anyone else, cos that would be oppression, exactly what I abhor. I voiced an opinion and my personal morals thats all. And just to be clear If I could avoid it, I wouldn't buy stuff from China, but thats just near impossible. How the western economies have kow towed to the opression in the name of cheap stuff is shameful in my opinion. However the money we saved buying cheap s
t is going to come home to roost soon, and then what? We have effectively paid to arm them, shipped all our key manufacturing out to them etc. If taiwan blows up it will make the impact of the russion energy problems seem like small fry, and all could have been avoided if somebody had simply gone, 'hold on, thats not right'. so I'm happy to be braion dead thanks. Maybe if more people had brain dead morals?.
One other thing I noticed when we were in Turkey was the uncomfortable staring of young females by young men, even when they are respectfully dressed.
We had a couple of young girls at our hotel and they asked to tag along with us when they heard we were walking into town as they didn't feel comfortable going on their own because of the attention.
We had a couple of young girls at our hotel and they asked to tag along with us when they heard we were walking into town as they didn't feel comfortable going on their own because of the attention.
sparkyhx said:
Never said it was, neither is Russia! its a sentence listing Turkey, Russia and middle eastern countries, as examples of countries who repress their people.
It's funny you say Turks are repressed, while local elections are currently ongoing.They get to vote for political parties to represent them, just as we do in the UK. They are free to hold their own political opinions, just as we are in the UK.
There is sadly a lot of propaganda and misinformation in western media to build up hate against certain countries.
aturnick54 said:
sparkyhx said:
Never said it was, neither is Russia! its a sentence listing Turkey, Russia and middle eastern countries, as examples of countries who repress their people.
It's funny you say Turks are repressed, while local elections are currently ongoing.They get to vote for political parties to represent them, just as we do in the UK. They are free to hold their own political opinions, just as we are in the UK.
There is sadly a lot of propaganda and misinformation in western media to build up hate against certain countries.
Yes it appears the elections have been Free, and have not been marred by violence and ballot stuffing allegations. Whether they are 'Fair' is very debatable when you consider the other elements of more subtle interference.
Ergogan used the rather useful coup to his advantage, solidifying his power and effectively embedding the State of Emergency powers after the coup by changing the constitution so that there was a President instead of parliament. A playbook used by Putin who changed the russian constitution limiting 2 term president(i think). This power has been used in many ways to build non-government institutions that are either at worst corrupt and reward his cronies or at best facilitate the parties and presidents massaging and embedding of power and influence.
There are infact many striking similarities between Putin and Erdogan, but thats simply because its the same Authoritarian/Autocratic Regime playbook, its happening all over, even eastern europe now.
One of those plays is 'playing' at democracy, These regimes need control of the elite (Tick, the cronies embeded in key roles and institutions), Control of the media/information (tick as above), Then the final element is an interesting one, Fear. Fear is being replaced in autocratic regimes, by fake democracy . Sophisticated 'spin' dictators are using methods such as disinformation, and psychologically keeping their populations in fear of the 'Other' (the west, deep state, political elite,Kurds etc), instead of the more overtly brutal methods of political repression favoured by dictators of the past. These regimes pretend to be democrats, allowing alimited independent media to say they have a free press and allow elections to say they are democratic. Whilst controlling the bulk media and message and suppressing opposition and limiting choice in elections.
Use of religion is another interesting tactic, used by both Erdogan and Putin. Although Erdogan was always an islamist, politically he has consistently said he is committed to secularism, whilst largely doing the opposite. Putin is now also being propped up by the Church, despite the constitution saying it is secular. Religion could be seen from two perspectives, it is a large part of peoples lives and creates a 'membership' and by extensiuon support of the regime cos the 'church' supports the regime. But also as a branch of the media and the massaging of information and message.
So in summary - take a closer look at those elections and whats behind them.
Edited by sparkyhx on Wednesday 20th March 11:47
sparkyhx said:
:cough: media interference in the form of government owned or owned by cronies with the oppression and harrassment of the 'free' journalists :cough: opposition jailed and suppressed and also ignored by regime controlled media.
Soooo no different to the media in the UK? 
my wife is off to Istanbul (she is Russian) to meet family from Russia - it would have been easier to meet somewhere like Helsinki or Tallinn, but of course Europe is closed to Russians, my wife can't travel into Russia (she may not be allowed back out or worse) and her Russian family are not interested in the expense and time to get UK visas plus they may not be issued.
Such is the situation today, so Turkey is one of the few options that isn't going to cost ridiculous amounts. We are also thinking of going there on holiday with our Ukrainian friends for the same reason!
Such is the situation today, so Turkey is one of the few options that isn't going to cost ridiculous amounts. We are also thinking of going there on holiday with our Ukrainian friends for the same reason!
aturnick54 said:
sparkyhx said:
:cough: media interference in the form of government owned or owned by cronies with the oppression and harrassment of the 'free' journalists :cough: opposition jailed and suppressed and also ignored by regime controlled media.
Soooo no different to the media in the UK? Media is not state controlled, yes most of the newspapers are 'Tory' leaning, but nobody is surpressing the Mirror and Guardian. TV channels are largely free and fair and present multiple views and opinions. You can argue fringe ideas get more time than they should legitimising them in the process (UKIP et al).
However please please feel free to argue this government is increasingly cracking down on protest and dissent laws and the people of this country are sleepwalking into an authoritarian nightmare. The laws bening passed now are vague and open to interpretation so wide they are almost identicle to ones used in Russia, China etc to jail people. Wake up people
among other things, the lawsl allow police officers to impose any conditions they feel necessary on certain types of protest, and expand their power to shut down demonstrations they feel would be unacceptably noisy or a nuisance. Try defining the term “nuisance”, People being arested because they carried a luggage strap, protesters just holding a plackard saying 'Not my King' no shouting, no blocking, nothing other than holding a plackard, arrested. And thats now! there is nothing stopping it getting worse if they so decide.
It also carries a sentence up to 10 years in prison. Isn't that exactly the point of a protest, to create niuisance.
The police now have the power to define amongth other things where it can take place, how many people can protest and for how long. So if they decide to impose a limit of 5 and you rock up as the 6th, then you can be arrested and you no longer have the defence of not knowing the restrictions. Not only that the policwe can change the restrictions on the fly and you still have no defence. Although I believe this was challenged in court recently when the police did just that around changing the location without telling anyone, then arrested people in the original location. But I dont know if that was aspecific or now some precedent.
Wake up people
Wake up people
YorkshireStu said:
I nearly booked Turkey and may still do so (going to SA instead) as I see no reason why one wouldn’t.
Couldn’t give a stuff if Russian’s are allowed there; I don’t blame the average Russian for what is happening in Ukraine.
In fact, I’d happily visit Russia.
Unfortunately, the Russians who get to go on a western holiday aren't generally your 'average' Russian. Couldn’t give a stuff if Russian’s are allowed there; I don’t blame the average Russian for what is happening in Ukraine.
In fact, I’d happily visit Russia.
and yes I have happily visited Russia.
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