Turkey - any reason not to?
Discussion
bigandclever said:
And there was me, thinking this was the "holidays and travel" bit of PH.
yeh sorry about that, but what started off me saying why I wouldn't go, resulted in a number of 'glib' responses that couldn't be ignored..........perhaps I should, but then that's how we end up in the mess we are because of lack of understanding and engagement...................oh this could go on again
sparkyhx said:
Whats confusing?
Media is not state controlled, yes most of the newspapers are 'Tory' leaning, but nobody is surpressing the Mirror and Guardian. TV channels are largely free and fair and present multiple views and opinions. You can argue fringe ideas get more time than they should legitimising them in the process (UKIP et al).
However please please feel free to argue this government is increasingly cracking down on protest and dissent laws and the people of this country are sleepwalking into an authoritarian nightmare. The laws bening passed now are vague and open to interpretation so wide they are almost identicle to ones used in Russia, China etc to jail people. Wake up people
among other things, the lawsl allow police officers to impose any conditions they feel necessary on certain types of protest, and expand their power to shut down demonstrations they feel would be unacceptably noisy or a nuisance. Try defining the term “nuisance”, People being arested because they carried a luggage strap, protesters just holding a plackard saying 'Not my King' no shouting, no blocking, nothing other than holding a plackard, arrested. And thats now! there is nothing stopping it getting worse if they so decide.
It also carries a sentence up to 10 years in prison. Isn't that exactly the point of a protest, to create niuisance.
The police now have the power to define amongth other things where it can take place, how many people can protest and for how long. So if they decide to impose a limit of 5 and you rock up as the 6th, then you can be arrested and you no longer have the defence of not knowing the restrictions. Not only that the policwe can change the restrictions on the fly and you still have no defence. Although I believe this was challenged in court recently when the police did just that around changing the location without telling anyone, then arrested people in the original location. But I dont know if that was aspecific or now some precedent.
Wake up people
Wake up people
People in Turkey are free to protest, and political demonstrations are fairly common as explicitly allowed under Article 34 of the Turkish Constitution. There are state-owned (TRT) and also plenty of private broadcasters, on TV and radio. Newspapers are also popular, particularly among the older generations. These present a wide range of opinions and views, providing they are not insulting to the state.Media is not state controlled, yes most of the newspapers are 'Tory' leaning, but nobody is surpressing the Mirror and Guardian. TV channels are largely free and fair and present multiple views and opinions. You can argue fringe ideas get more time than they should legitimising them in the process (UKIP et al).
However please please feel free to argue this government is increasingly cracking down on protest and dissent laws and the people of this country are sleepwalking into an authoritarian nightmare. The laws bening passed now are vague and open to interpretation so wide they are almost identicle to ones used in Russia, China etc to jail people. Wake up people
among other things, the lawsl allow police officers to impose any conditions they feel necessary on certain types of protest, and expand their power to shut down demonstrations they feel would be unacceptably noisy or a nuisance. Try defining the term “nuisance”, People being arested because they carried a luggage strap, protesters just holding a plackard saying 'Not my King' no shouting, no blocking, nothing other than holding a plackard, arrested. And thats now! there is nothing stopping it getting worse if they so decide.
It also carries a sentence up to 10 years in prison. Isn't that exactly the point of a protest, to create niuisance.
The police now have the power to define amongth other things where it can take place, how many people can protest and for how long. So if they decide to impose a limit of 5 and you rock up as the 6th, then you can be arrested and you no longer have the defence of not knowing the restrictions. Not only that the policwe can change the restrictions on the fly and you still have no defence. Although I believe this was challenged in court recently when the police did just that around changing the location without telling anyone, then arrested people in the original location. But I dont know if that was aspecific or now some precedent.
Wake up people
Wake up people
However as you said, the UK has recently gone down a worrying path of vague laws to impose restrictions on the right to protest. No such restrictions exist in Turkey.
aturnick54 said:
People in Turkey are free to protest, and political demonstrations are fairly common as explicitly allowed under Article 34 of the Turkish Constitution. There are state-owned (TRT) and also plenty of private broadcasters, on TV and radio. Newspapers are also popular, particularly among the older generations. These present a wide range of opinions and views, providing they are not insulting to the state.
However as you said, the UK has recently gone down a worrying path of vague laws to impose restrictions on the right to protest. No such restrictions exist in Turkey.
You are having a laugh aren't you.However as you said, the UK has recently gone down a worrying path of vague laws to impose restrictions on the right to protest. No such restrictions exist in Turkey.
Sorry not letting this go. The constitution clearly states this you are correct. But there are a number of secondary laws that actually breach this right in the constitution.
In addition to the 1982 Turkish Constitution, the primary legislation that regulates the freedom of assembly is Law No. 2911 Law on Meetings and Demonstrations, which
was adopted on October 6, 1983. (before Erdogan yes). Secondary legislation that regulates the implementation of Law No. 2911 includes The Regulation on the Implementation of Law on Meetings and Demonstrations, which was adopted on August, 8, 1985; Law No. 2559 on the Duties and Discretion of the Police; Law No. 3713 on
The Prevention of Terrorism Acts and Law No. 5326 on Misdemeanours. These establish arbitary limitations like the need for permission they grant police forces with unlimited power to disrupt or cancel/stop and even use of excessive force. They laws delegate governors’ (Erdogans appointed Governors) the authority to decide whether the protest is lawful or not before the protest.
As I said all these laws pre-date Erdogan, so he cannot be blammed for that, but it is Erdogan who has exercised these in an ever increasing restrictive way.
Which is exactly what the UK government is doing, passing seemingly well balanced reasonable laws that on closer inspection are completely dependent on 'interpretation and will' of whoever holds power. So todays climate protestor blocking the M25 is tomorrows Junior doctor holding a strike plackard outside a hospital and we are sleep walking into this.
I cant quite decide if you are some kind of propagandist apologist, wilfully blind or just ignorant, but the quoting of constitution make me think the former, deliberately trying to create a fluffy rosy picture when the reality is anything but. tThis will be my last post on the issue. For those reading make your own minds up, research if necessary, just please dont believe propagandist bulls
t, dig deeper. If I were you I'd give up, every comment you have made so far has been systematically demolished.Edit - just found this - dont know why I didnt go there first. https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-cen...
BTW, I want to make this clear, I hold no truck with Turkey per se, I think Turkey would be a fascinating, beautiful and wonderful place to visit from all that I know about it, a true cradle of civilisation . Just not now for me.
Edited by sparkyhx on Sunday 24th March 22:59
Turkey is ok, but not a patch on Greece in my opinion.
The nice thing is that you get the feeling of being more immersed in a foreign culture, especially, if you go far enough along the south coast, but overall, Greece is just nicer and more charming, where you can properly relax and enjoy everything without constantly having that underlying feeling that something is just a bit off.
The nice thing is that you get the feeling of being more immersed in a foreign culture, especially, if you go far enough along the south coast, but overall, Greece is just nicer and more charming, where you can properly relax and enjoy everything without constantly having that underlying feeling that something is just a bit off.
Booked a last min Easter trip to Antalya, it's dirt cheap right now due to their tanking exchange rate. Big resort with loads of stuff to do, great food, warm(ish) weather at this time of year, under £2k all in during school holidays, what's not to like.
I find the notion of avoiding countries based on geopolitical perceptions bizarre - I'm going there for a holiday, not to partake in demonstrations against the government.
I find the notion of avoiding countries based on geopolitical perceptions bizarre - I'm going there for a holiday, not to partake in demonstrations against the government.
Did Antalya last year around May time. Exchange rate wasn’t great so food was bloody expensive. Booze was London prices, which is unsurprising given it’s a Muslim country. However we enjoyed ourselves and are going back this year, to Marmaris this time. Exchange rate looks much more favourable so hopefully it won’t be quite so bad on the wallet.
We did notice large amounts of Russian tourists, they were by and large fine. Pushy and loud with no real concept of queuing but didn’t impact us at all.
The airport security was something else on the return flight home though. Passport must have been checked 5 times before boarding, x ray scanners before you can even enter the building and check in for your flight, plus another pat down search and wipe down to test for explosives AFTER clearing security just before boarding the plane.
We did notice large amounts of Russian tourists, they were by and large fine. Pushy and loud with no real concept of queuing but didn’t impact us at all.
The airport security was something else on the return flight home though. Passport must have been checked 5 times before boarding, x ray scanners before you can even enter the building and check in for your flight, plus another pat down search and wipe down to test for explosives AFTER clearing security just before boarding the plane.
Shappers24 said:
Did Antalya last year around May time. Exchange rate wasn’t great so food was bloody expensive. Booze was London prices, which is unsurprising given it’s a Muslim country. However we enjoyed ourselves and are going back this year, to Marmaris this time. Exchange rate looks much more favourable so hopefully it won’t be quite so bad on the wallet.
We did notice large amounts of Russian tourists, they were by and large fine. Pushy and loud with no real concept of queuing but didn’t impact us at all.
The airport security was something else on the return flight home though. Passport must have been checked 5 times before boarding, x ray scanners before you can even enter the building and check in for your flight, plus another pat down search and wipe down to test for explosives AFTER clearing security just before boarding the plane.
Guess the security varies according to threat level, but we didn't have the outside check at Antalya last Sept, then just one passport / security check to get airside. They were doing the explosives check on entry to the gate but they gave up halfway through as the plane was boarding. They didn't open the check-in until about 90 mins before the flight and by then the entire flight was in the queue and I thought there was no way we were going to be departing anything like on time, but we did.We did notice large amounts of Russian tourists, they were by and large fine. Pushy and loud with no real concept of queuing but didn’t impact us at all.
The airport security was something else on the return flight home though. Passport must have been checked 5 times before boarding, x ray scanners before you can even enter the building and check in for your flight, plus another pat down search and wipe down to test for explosives AFTER clearing security just before boarding the plane.
We were all inclusive and only went for a week and didn't buy anything outside. I've never been AI before but thought it was very good, and we could eat a la carte every night. I did notice a local cafe advertising full english breakfast at €20 which was a lot more expensive than I'd expected.
As mentioned above- we go there for the sailing.
Over the last 5 or 6 years I have seen the currency climb from a steady 7TL to the £, to now 40TL to the pound.
Costs eating out in the bays' or taverna's haven't changed, in real UK monetary terms
Detailed bill below as typical to help understand where the numbers come from obviously......
and inevitably always settles as €100 for two.
Over the last 5 or 6 years I have seen the currency climb from a steady 7TL to the £, to now 40TL to the pound.
Costs eating out in the bays' or taverna's haven't changed, in real UK monetary terms
Detailed bill below as typical to help understand where the numbers come from obviously......
and inevitably always settles as €100 for two.
Shappers24 said:
The airport security was something else on the return flight home though. Passport must have been checked 5 times before boarding, x ray scanners before you can even enter the building and check in for your flight, plus another pat down search and wipe down to test for explosives AFTER clearing security just before boarding the plane.
First lot of security is common in Turkish airports and shopping centres when you enter. I suppose makes sense with it being a large public area with frequent crowds. Then you have passport control and a usual security check.The security check that happens at the gate is a UK government requirement on all flights from Turkey. Has been in place for several years due to risk of terrorism, appears the UK government has just forgotten about it these days or doesn't care.
Has anyone done Land of Legends theme park in Antalya? We’re off shortly and just pondering whether it’s worth a visit (I strongly hope so!), and if so whether to pay Jet2’s seemingly rather inflated prices for the organised trip or just book our own tickets and then try and sort out a taxi there & back.
Rumdoodle said:
That's not really how national security works now, is it?
If it's about national security, why are the UK government relying on a private Turkish security company to carry out these checks? Half of the time they are not done properly. Often they have failed to check all areas of my bag. A couple of times I've failed the drug swipe and they never found what the issue was, just told me to go.If it was so important, the UK would do these checks on arrival into the UK on all passengers. As someone can fly from Turkey to the UK via another country and no checks would be carried out. Only direct flights are affected.
aturnick54 said:
Rumdoodle said:
That's not really how national security works now, is it?
If it's about national security, why are the UK government relying on a private Turkish security company to carry out these checks? Half of the time they are not done properly. Often they have failed to check all areas of my bag. A couple of times I've failed the drug swipe and they never found what the issue was, just told me to go.If it was so important, the UK would do these checks on arrival into the UK on all passengers. As someone can fly from Turkey to the UK via another country and no checks would be carried out. Only direct flights are affected.
aturnick54 said:
If it's about national security, why are the UK government relying on a private Turkish security company to carry out these checks? Half of the time they are not done properly. Often they have failed to check all areas of my bag. A couple of times I've failed the drug swipe and they never found what the issue was, just told me to go.
If it was so important, the UK would do these checks on arrival into the UK on all passengers. As someone can fly from Turkey to the UK via another country and no checks would be carried out. Only direct flights are affected.
There’s transit security for connecting flights. If it was so important, the UK would do these checks on arrival into the UK on all passengers. As someone can fly from Turkey to the UK via another country and no checks would be carried out. Only direct flights are affected.
bigandclever said:
Slow.Patrol said:
We are not pool/beach/sunbed people and normally hire a car in Greece to visit archeological sites. We didn't do this in Turkey as there didn't seem to be much worth seeing.
My bold. You're off your nut 
aturnick54 said:
sparkyhx said:
:cough: media interference in the form of government owned or owned by cronies with the oppression and harrassment of the 'free' journalists :cough: opposition jailed and suppressed and also ignored by regime controlled media.
Soooo no different to the media in the UK? 
ATG said:
bigandclever said:
Slow.Patrol said:
We are not pool/beach/sunbed people and normally hire a car in Greece to visit archeological sites. We didn't do this in Turkey as there didn't seem to be much worth seeing.
My bold. You're off your nut And Antakya was wonderful, but that's all gone now.
Rumdoodle said:
Cappadocia, Gaziantep...
And Antakya was wonderful, but that's all gone now.
Visited Antakya two years ago. Wow, what a place. We had dinner at this gorgeous restaurant that was in an old Ottoman house, fountain in the centre, trees, courtyard, etc. I saw their Instagram a few months after the earthquake. Nothing left!And Antakya was wonderful, but that's all gone now.
Mardin is another absolutely spectacular place to visit. Built on a rock overlooking the Mesopotamian plains. You can see for miles - it's unlike anywhere else I've ever been (and barely any tourists!).
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