World War Two: Evidence of damage/stuff left over now.
Discussion
CarlosFandango11 said:
Legacywr said:
One thing made clear by this thread is, that in the event of a land invasion, we would have been f
ked! 
The efforts were so(understandably)poor, they may aswell not have bothered at all!
Not sure how you reach this conclusion!ked! The efforts were so(understandably)poor, they may aswell not have bothered at all!
Take a look at the Defense Of Britain Database, particularly the Goolge Earth down load in this link:
http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/...
Hull is largely forgotten as blitz target despite being one of, if not the most heavily bombed city in the UK with 95% of its home being destroyed or damaged. The Humber docks made Hull a valuable target and the estuary made it an easy target to find. At a time when accurate night time bombing was nearly impossible, the Estuary acted like a big arrow pointing at the cities heart.
This is a few hundred meters from my home.
The Hull Blitz map shows many of the sticks of bombs dropped on Hull. Take note of the gaps in the sticks, WW2 bombs were notoriously unreliable with about 1 in 4 not exploding on impact. My house actually sits in one of those gaps, the house south east of me destroyed by direct hit and now a pub car park, the building to north west of me also destroyed. My home should be long gone, but seemingly sits in the path one of those duds.
As a kid, we used to go to Fraisthorpe beach where anti-invasion Bunkers & Anti-Tank Traps can still be found today.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Coasta...
This is a few hundred meters from my home.
The Hull Blitz map shows many of the sticks of bombs dropped on Hull. Take note of the gaps in the sticks, WW2 bombs were notoriously unreliable with about 1 in 4 not exploding on impact. My house actually sits in one of those gaps, the house south east of me destroyed by direct hit and now a pub car park, the building to north west of me also destroyed. My home should be long gone, but seemingly sits in the path one of those duds.
As a kid, we used to go to Fraisthorpe beach where anti-invasion Bunkers & Anti-Tank Traps can still be found today.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Coasta...
Edited by Martin4x4 on Tuesday 22 September 22:55
Legacywr said:
CarlosFandango11 said:
Legacywr said:
One thing made clear by this thread is, that in the event of a land invasion, we would have been fked!
The efforts were so(understandably)poor, they may aswell not have bothered at all!
Not sure how you reach this conclusion!ked! The efforts were so(understandably)poor, they may aswell not have bothered at all!
Take a look at the Defense Of Britain Database, particularly the Goolge Earth down load in this link:
http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/...
The Google Earth download visually shows the scale of defences that were built.
CarlosFandango11 said:
Legacywr said:
CarlosFandango11 said:
Legacywr said:
One thing made clear by this thread is, that in the event of a land invasion, we would have been fked!
The efforts were so(understandably)poor, they may aswell not have bothered at all!
Not sure how you reach this conclusion!ked! The efforts were so(understandably)poor, they may aswell not have bothered at all!
Take a look at the Defense Of Britain Database, particularly the Goolge Earth down load in this link:
http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/...
The Google Earth download visually shows the scale of defences that were built.
Legacywr said:
One thing made clear by this thread is, that in the event of a land invasion, we would have been fked!
Not true. ked! The Battle of Britain was never as bad as it is commonly believed. The RAF was getting stronger while the Luftwaffe were getting weaker. We were building two fighters for each one we lost, while the Luftwaffe was losing two for each it built. If Fighter Group 11 south had collapsed, we still had Group 12 in the Midlands and 13 in the North.
Operation Sealion would have been a disaster for the Germans, the Rein barges would have been death traps for their best troops even without the intervention of the home fleet.
Any troops that got ashore would have been overwhelmed inside a week, Sandhurst did an exercise/war game in the 70s were the Germans were given the most advantageous interpretation of the situation and still suffered a devastating defeat.
In the post-war years (and in recent years too) there have been 'wargames' on what would have happened should the Germans have invaded during their initial plans for Operation Sealion (The invasion of Britain). In the post-war games they used German officers and in the scenarios ran the Germans could land in Kent but they would get no further than the north-west borders of the county, and a fair distance from London.
It was something along the lines of that although they got a foothold in Britain the forces, both regular and irregular, kept their progress slow, and the Navy's North Sea Fleet came down the coast and cut off their supply lines across the channel after a few days, meaning their units already here slowly got worn down and destroyed whilst the Navy and the RAF ensure that no aircraft or supplies came through.
That's the story in a nutshell anyway, and only works if used with the world as it stood in 1940 when Operation Sealion was first set to take place.
It was something along the lines of that although they got a foothold in Britain the forces, both regular and irregular, kept their progress slow, and the Navy's North Sea Fleet came down the coast and cut off their supply lines across the channel after a few days, meaning their units already here slowly got worn down and destroyed whilst the Navy and the RAF ensure that no aircraft or supplies came through.
That's the story in a nutshell anyway, and only works if used with the world as it stood in 1940 when Operation Sealion was first set to take place.
CarlosFandango11 said:
Halmyre said:
fatboy18 said:
Legacywr said:
One thing made clear by this thread is, that in the event of a land invasion, we would have been fked!
The efforts were so(understandably)poor, they may aswell not have bothered at all!
We were bloody lucky that Hitler favoured the British and turned his sights on Russia.ked! The efforts were so(understandably)poor, they may aswell not have bothered at all!
Without doubt the heroic efforts of Fighter command played a massive role in changing Hitler's 'Operation SeaLion' invasion plans.
t out of any invasion fleet foolish enought to enter the English Channel, the Kriegsmarines' destroyers were out numbered 10:1 by those of the Royal Navy. The powerful tides in the narrow confines of the Channel would mean the underpowered invasion barges towing the unpowered barges would need to be launched at least 24hrs before the planned landings leaving the soldiers very seasick.The British army had spent the three months since Dunkirk re-arming and expanding and had the benefit of an intact rail network that could get them to the site of any invasion in a matter of hours. Compare that to the months the RAF spent pre D-day attacking the French rail network and German shore defences.
The Germans had two hopes of a successful invasion in 1940 and Bob was busy filming Road to Singapore in Hollywood.
As an aside, has anyone else seen footage of the German barges fitted with old aero engines and massive props as power? I think the tests were deemed a failure as the flat-bottomed vessels were over-powered. Still must have been a hoot to try out, a bit like a very large Everglades skimmer.
While its all very well to Big up our Royal Navy, we now all know that Aircraft were the downfall of many large ships. Our Aircraft played a big part in sinking and bombing German Battle cruisers, so had the invasion started it stands to reason that the German aircraft would have made a big dent in the British Navy! They destroyed many ships at Dunkirk. Would the Navy also risk going into the channel with the presents of U Boats?
The fact that the British Expeditionary force were still licking their wounds left the RAF as the next force in line to put up a fight in defence of the Homeland. Had the Germans kept on pounding our Airfields the chances are an Invasion would have taken place. Personally I don't think our pill boxes would have been too much of a problem for the Germans, they made light work of them in France!
The fact that the British Expeditionary force were still licking their wounds left the RAF as the next force in line to put up a fight in defence of the Homeland. Had the Germans kept on pounding our Airfields the chances are an Invasion would have taken place. Personally I don't think our pill boxes would have been too much of a problem for the Germans, they made light work of them in France!
fatboy18 said:
While its all very well to Big up our Royal Navy, we now all know that Aircraft were the downfall of many large ships. Our Aircraft played a big part in sinking and bombing German Battle cruisers, so had the invasion started it stands to reason that the German aircraft would have made a big dent in the British Navy! They destroyed many ships at Dunkirk. Would the Navy also risk going into the channel with the presents of U Boats?
The fact that the British Expeditionary force were still licking their wounds left the RAF as the next force in line to put up a fight in defence of the Homeland. Had the Germans kept on pounding our Airfields the chances are an Invasion would have taken place. Personally I don't think our pill boxes would have been too much of a problem for the Germans, they made light work of them in France!
The Luftwaffe was fairly ineffective against the Royal Navy in the Norwegian campaign (only two destroyers sunk despite air superiority). Unlike Dunkirk, ships could use their speed and armament to attack the landing forces instead of presenting sitting ducks. If the RAF lost the Group 11 airfields in the South, they were to withdraw into the Midlands, out of range of German raids and carry on the fight from there. The fact that the British Expeditionary force were still licking their wounds left the RAF as the next force in line to put up a fight in defence of the Homeland. Had the Germans kept on pounding our Airfields the chances are an Invasion would have taken place. Personally I don't think our pill boxes would have been too much of a problem for the Germans, they made light work of them in France!
The Navy had significant forces stationed around the Channel that could be called upon until the Home Fleet arrived from Scapa Flow. Had an invasion been attempted, everything would have been thrown into the fray. Tradition was a powerful weapon in the Navy's arsenal - Revenge, Glowworw and Jervis Bay.
Operation Banquet called for all aircraft capable of flying and dropping a bomb to be committed to action in the event of an invasion: Coastal Command, Fleet Air Arm and Training Command aircraft right down to Tiger Moths. Serious consideration was even given to using civilian light aircraft. Student pilots with minimum hours would be sent solo to bomb the landing beaches without niceties like bombsights and defensive guns. Poison gas was forward deployed to be sprayed onto the landing beaches.
Equipment was deliberately held back from the Battle of France in readiness for a Battle of Britain. The defences ashore were considerably more than pill-boxes. Stop lines were rapidly constructed on the principles of defence in depth, designed to hold up German forces for the few short hours until the British Army's forces were in place.
So even if the Germans had the logistics to make a landing across the channel and somehow prevent the Royal Navy cutting off their supply line, they would still be fought to a standstill in a small beachhead and eventually driven back into the sea.
nicanary said:
Monkey boy 1 said:
Within 20 mile radius of my house I have loads of WW2 evidence. Mainly ex-USAF air bases. Snetterton Heath, Deopham Green, Old Buckenham, Hethel, Watton, Tibehnam, Shipdham, Fersfield, Bodney, Hardwick to name a few. Most of these were B17 & B24 bases. Then there is the 8th Airforce HQ at Ketteringham Hall. A large WW2 fuel dump just off the main Norwich to Cambridge rail line at Ketteringham.
On top of that are the various pill boxes dotted around in the corners of fields overlooking strategic road crossing points. There is one built onto the side of a house which guarded the rail line in one direction & the road heading upto Old Buckenham air field in the other direction.
No wonder East Anglia was called "Little America"
I used to go for bike rides out to those airfields when I was a kid. It's amazing how many they managed to build in such a small area - when it came to mass raids it must have been a nightmare to organise the take-offs without different squadrons crashing into each other. The fields are literally just 3 or 4 miles apart. The local pubs must have done a roaring trade.On top of that are the various pill boxes dotted around in the corners of fields overlooking strategic road crossing points. There is one built onto the side of a house which guarded the rail line in one direction & the road heading upto Old Buckenham air field in the other direction.
No wonder East Anglia was called "Little America"
My dad was away serving in India and he was a trifled concerned about my mum with all those Yanks in Norwich on their leave. She was almost in tears one day when she recounted the infamous night when Luftwaffe night-fighters followed them home and picked them off as they tried to land. She reckons you could see flames in the sky and on the ground all around Norwich (it's very flat, Norfolk, as Noel Coward said). The locals could only stand and watch.
When I was a kid I wondered why there was a huge hole in the small wood on the side of Bracondale in Norwich. I realise now it might have been caused during the bombing raid which killed the Colmans workers as they finished their shift at the factory. Is it still there?
I spent some time in New York a few years ago, and when short on laundry I was wearing an old England football shirt. I was stopped by an old man down in the financial district who asked me whereabouts in England I was from, and said that he flew out of Earls Colne in 1944 with the USAF and did I know it - which I do, it's about 3 miles from my home! We sat and chatted for about an hour about his experiences and his thoughts on life in the UK for the period he was there, and I was telling him how the area has changed.
A really lovely, interesting old boy. I wish I'd have kept in touch with him.
fatboy18 said:
While its all very well to Big up our Royal Navy, we now all know that Aircraft were the downfall of many large ships. Our Aircraft played a big part in sinking and bombing German Battle cruisers, so had the invasion started it stands to reason that the German aircraft would have made a big dent in the British Navy! They destroyed many ships at Dunkirk. Would the Navy also risk going into the channel with the presents of U Boats?
the Luffewaffe didn't have an effective anti-ship capability in 1940, hence their lack of success in Norway and Dunkirk. The RAF did, as did the USA and Japan, hence their successes.U boats worked against slow moving unarmed merchant ships, not sure why you think they would be effective against fast moving Destroyers...?
The RN wasn't affraid to take losses in WWII, Crete for example, why do you think they would be during an invasion of the UK?
fatboy18 said:
The fact that the British Expeditionary force were still licking their wounds left the RAF as the next force in line to put up a fight in defence of the Homeland. Had the Germans kept on pounding our Airfields the chances are an Invasion would have taken place. Personally I don't think our pill boxes would have been too much of a problem for the Germans, they made light work of them in France!
The fact that the English Channel exists means that the Army (BEF and the rest of it) weren't next in line to defend the UK following Dunkirk. It takes a lot of preparation and planning to invade across the channel - operation Overlord for example - include the ability to transport men, equipment, fuel and supplies across it over a number of days/weeks which would be difficult to do if the RN were to intervene...What pillboxes are you referring to in France?
fatboy18 said:
While its all very well to Big up our Royal Navy, we now all know that Aircraft were the downfall of many large ships. Our Aircraft played a big part in sinking and bombing German Battle cruisers, so had the invasion started it stands to reason that the German aircraft would have made a big dent in the British Navy! They destroyed many ships at Dunkirk. Would the Navy also risk going into the channel with the presents of U Boats?
The fact that the British Expeditionary force were still licking their wounds left the RAF as the next force in line to put up a fight in defence of the Homeland. Had the Germans kept on pounding our Airfields the chances are an Invasion would have taken place. Personally I don't think our pill boxes would have been too much of a problem for the Germans, they made light work of them in France!
There are many 'what if' forums on the net, littered with the wreckage of crashed and burned invasion theories. There's more chance of coming up with a workable perpetual motion device than a workable Sea Lion scenario.The fact that the British Expeditionary force were still licking their wounds left the RAF as the next force in line to put up a fight in defence of the Homeland. Had the Germans kept on pounding our Airfields the chances are an Invasion would have taken place. Personally I don't think our pill boxes would have been too much of a problem for the Germans, they made light work of them in France!
CarlosFandango11 said:
fatboy18 said:
While its all very well to Big up our Royal Navy, we now all know that Aircraft were the downfall of many large ships. Our Aircraft played a big part in sinking and bombing German Battle cruisers, so had the invasion started it stands to reason that the German aircraft would have made a big dent in the British Navy! They destroyed many ships at Dunkirk. Would the Navy also risk going into the channel with the presents of U Boats?
the Luffewaffe didn't have an effective anti-ship capability in 1940, hence their lack of success in Norway and Dunkirk. The RAF did, as did the USA and Japan, hence their successes.U boats worked against slow moving unarmed merchant ships, not sure why you think they would be effective against fast moving Destroyers...?
The RN wasn't affraid to take losses in WWII, Crete for example, why do you think they would be during an invasion of the UK?
fatboy18 said:
The fact that the British Expeditionary force were still licking their wounds left the RAF as the next force in line to put up a fight in defence of the Homeland. Had the Germans kept on pounding our Airfields the chances are an Invasion would have taken place. Personally I don't think our pill boxes would have been too much of a problem for the Germans, they made light work of them in France!
The fact that the English Channel exists means that the Army (BEF and the rest of it) weren't next in line to defend the UK following Dunkirk. It takes a lot of preparation and planning to invade across the channel - operation Overlord for example - include the ability to transport men, equipment, fuel and supplies across it over a number of days/weeks which would be difficult to do if the RN were to intervene...What pillboxes are you referring to in France?
Yes, there has been many a debate on whether the plan to invade would have worked? But I still think we were lucky.
Edited by fatboy18 on Wednesday 23 September 08:11
fatboy18 said:
ell there was a little complex called the Maginot line, they just nipped around that
Yes, there has been many a debate on whether the plan to invade would have worked? But I still think we were lucky.
Would this be the Maginot line that ended at the Luxembourg/Belgium border,,,,? Didn't the Germans invade france via Belgium? And wasn't the Maginot line french built and hence not ours?Yes, there has been many a debate on whether the plan to invade would have worked? But I still think we were lucky.
Edited by fatboy18 on Wednesday 23 September 08:11
No luck involved, plenty of foresight and preparation and planning though.
CarlosFandango11 said:
fatboy18 said:
ell there was a little complex called the Maginot line, they just nipped around that
Yes, there has been many a debate on whether the plan to invade would have worked? But I still think we were lucky.
Would this be the Maginot line that ended at the Luxembourg/Belgium border,,,,? Didn't the Germans invade france via Belgium? And wasn't the Maginot line french built and hence not ours?Yes, there has been many a debate on whether the plan to invade would have worked? But I still think we were lucky.
Edited by fatboy18 on Wednesday 23 September 08:11
No luck involved, plenty of foresight and preparation and planning though.
Buff Mchugelarge said:
Fascinating thread, Thankyou all 
I often sit and think about the war and what a different world it was back then. Seeing damage now days reminds us it all happened right where we live our comparably easy, worry free lives today.
Not a Daily Mail reader, then?I often sit and think about the war and what a different world it was back then. Seeing damage now days reminds us it all happened right where we live our comparably easy, worry free lives today.
As for invasion - iirc there was a TV documentary a few years back which showed the Germans gaining much ground in the first 48 hours, but stalling due to lack of supplies and holding out for three weeks' maximum. Bluddy immigrants, eh?
Aside from the obvious defence structures, it's those 'hidden' munitions factories and depots that really fascinate me. Came across this one when visiting a NT property a month or two back;
More about here;
http://www.deanhillpark.co.uk/history-office-compl...
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