Divorcing empty nesters...
Discussion
MYOB, Cafcass will side with the mother even if you had the Pope and Mother Theresa providing testimonials on your behalf, look at Tonkers experience with them, so try not to sweat it.
One thing my experience has taught me is that you do come out the other side, so don't give up, its a tortuous journey but you need to accept the system will screw you whatever you do, so try to take it on the chin, just shrug your shoulders and work your way along the line. 18 months time you can look back on this and think f
k me thank god that is now all done.
Having kids with them means the ex will always now be a thorn in your side, but you will have one thing they can never get back and that is a clear conscience and a freedom to move on with life, and that is priceless, which is why they will continue to hate you as well!
One thing my experience has taught me is that you do come out the other side, so don't give up, its a tortuous journey but you need to accept the system will screw you whatever you do, so try to take it on the chin, just shrug your shoulders and work your way along the line. 18 months time you can look back on this and think f
k me thank god that is now all done. Having kids with them means the ex will always now be a thorn in your side, but you will have one thing they can never get back and that is a clear conscience and a freedom to move on with life, and that is priceless, which is why they will continue to hate you as well!
It really is not at all surprising that many men nowadays wonder what the point is in getting married. I know it doesn't apply to all women, but a worryingly high percentage seem to want something/someone different after just a few years. Then, of course, it will be the guy who is blamed for just about everything (regardless of the true facts).
Whatever the circumstances, it's invariably the guy whose life is screwed up for very many years/forever.
I guess the fact that I was previously the "stay at home dad" is unlikely to be a significant factor then with regards to Child Arrangements?
I gave up on a 20 year career to do this, and for a variety of reasons, I'm going to find it extremely difficult to get a decent paid job now.
I gave up on a 20 year career to do this, and for a variety of reasons, I'm going to find it extremely difficult to get a decent paid job now.
Edited by MYOB on Monday 26th March 19:21
Robertj21a said:
It really is not at all surprising that many men nowadays wonder what the point is in getting married. I know it doesn't apply to all women, but a worryingly high percentage seem to want something/someone different after just a few years. Then, of course, it will be the guy who is blamed for just about everything (regardless of the true facts).
Whatever the circumstances, it's invariably the guy whose life is screwed up for very many years/forever.
50% of marriages end in divorce. By definition, of the remainder, 50% are below average. Therefore there's only a 1 in 4 chance of an average or happy marriage. Not good odds.Whatever the circumstances, it's invariably the guy whose life is screwed up for very many years/forever.
MYOB said:
I guess the fact that I was previously the "stay at home dad" is unlikely to be a significant factor then with regards to Child Arrangements?
I gave up on a 20 year career to do this, and for a variety of reasons, I'm going to find it extremely difficult to get a decent paid job now.
They will not care less, they just see your ex now taking on that role going forward, and you are now out of the loop, especially now you have the occupation order preventing you even picking them up from home. All part of the legal tactic to undermine your case and grant her more of the pot and custody.I gave up on a 20 year career to do this, and for a variety of reasons, I'm going to find it extremely difficult to get a decent paid job now.
Edited by MYOB on Monday 26th March 19:21
I was half way through building our dream home when we split, I had quit my well paid QS role to focus on it, so that I could then also take the children back and forth to school, their various appointments etc, as the ex was career chasing, she left at 7.40 in the morning, not getting home till gone 6 and could not take time off during term.
Given the special needs my two adopted girls were developing I ended up spending the bulk of my time sorting that rather than the house, then bam she hit me with the order, so I could not even go to the build to finish it, she then took voluntary redundancy and told the court as she could no longer service a mortgage she needed the bulk of the sale proceeds from the unfinished house to buy a new family home, which she was granted.
Now funnily enough just a week after the final hearing decision where she was given 72% she suddenly agreed I could return to the house to finish it, just so she could pocket another £100k on top, from its increased value.
All the court is interested in is the needs of the children, that can be performed by your ex so your needs are irrelevant and you will be cast aside and thrown some scraps if anything is left after its all carved up.
Its how the system operates, I and countless others have tried to fight it, I covered every angle under the sun in court, as it seems did Tonker, we both got screwed anyway, as has every other guy in our situations.
You really need to steal yourself for this outcome, then anything greater is a bonus.
PAUL500 said:
You really need to steal yourself for this outcome, then anything greater is a bonus.
Thanks for your views and sharing your experience. Sorry to hear that you are one of the many familiar stories of fathers losing out due to the unfair system.I've spent the past few days resigning myself to "losing" the battle and I cannot believe that this still happens in this day of apparent equality and fairness. I'm finding it increasingly difficult not to be bitter and must remind myself to continue being a good father to my children, whatever the outcome. That surely has to remain the focus and I'll have to do this with whatever I'm left with.
It's so frustrating because I put a significant inheritance into the house and I will probably lose that, at least until the kids are 18 and then the house is sold, should a Mersher Order be granted.
I so much want to relocate and start my life over but I cannot bring myself to move too far from the children. They nor I would cope. It's a shame because I have no family or friends in the area I'm in.
On with the job hunting then...
Console yourself with the fact you have not lost the battle, as it was one we were never ever going to win regardless.
I honestly wish someone had been telling me all this when I was at your stage, as I wasted so much time, effort and money fighting the good fight when I could have just taken it on the chin and moved on a lot quicker.
Whether I would have listened is another thing, as all along I kept telling myself "no this cannot be right, the courts will be fair and reasonable surely"
Having said that, if two of the six judges we saw during the process had been the actual final judge rather than the one we ended up with, I am pretty sure they would have seen through the crap that was being spouted by my exes barrister, as those two judges soon put them in their place at the stages they were involved in the process but it made little difference at the end. Fingers crossed your final one is switched on, most are dinosaurs who think we still live in middle class Victorian times.
I honestly wish someone had been telling me all this when I was at your stage, as I wasted so much time, effort and money fighting the good fight when I could have just taken it on the chin and moved on a lot quicker.
Whether I would have listened is another thing, as all along I kept telling myself "no this cannot be right, the courts will be fair and reasonable surely"
Having said that, if two of the six judges we saw during the process had been the actual final judge rather than the one we ended up with, I am pretty sure they would have seen through the crap that was being spouted by my exes barrister, as those two judges soon put them in their place at the stages they were involved in the process but it made little difference at the end. Fingers crossed your final one is switched on, most are dinosaurs who think we still live in middle class Victorian times.
Edited by PAUL500 on Monday 26th March 23:46
One thing that's becoming clear is if you can avoid the legal system do it at all costs!
My ex and I split about eighteen years ago when the kids were very young. As my parent's divorce was acrimonious I was keen to avoid that at all costs. Fortunately she knew how it affected me and understood why I didn't want that for my kids.
I had to pretend to be friends for eighteen years, let a lot of stuff slip that was patently wrong but the end result was worth it.
We weren't married which helped financially, but because the birth was pre-2003 I had less rights in the eyes of the law (like that seems to matter) hence being Mr Nice Guy.
My advice FWIW, if you can take a few hits you'd rather not to avoid the courts I'd do it...
My ex and I split about eighteen years ago when the kids were very young. As my parent's divorce was acrimonious I was keen to avoid that at all costs. Fortunately she knew how it affected me and understood why I didn't want that for my kids.
I had to pretend to be friends for eighteen years, let a lot of stuff slip that was patently wrong but the end result was worth it.
We weren't married which helped financially, but because the birth was pre-2003 I had less rights in the eyes of the law (like that seems to matter) hence being Mr Nice Guy.
My advice FWIW, if you can take a few hits you'd rather not to avoid the courts I'd do it...
WinstonWolf said:
One thing that's becoming clear is if you can avoid the legal system do it at all costs!
My ex and I split about eighteen years ago when the kids were very young. As my parent's divorce was acrimonious I was keen to avoid that at all costs. Fortunately she knew how it affected me and understood why I didn't want that for my kids.
I had to pretend to be friends for eighteen years, let a lot of stuff slip that was patently wrong but the end result was worth it.
We weren't married which helped financially, but because the birth was pre-2003 I had less rights in the eyes of the law (like that seems to matter) hence being Mr Nice Guy.
My advice FWIW, if you can take a few hits you'd rather not to avoid the courts I'd do it...
The same applies in the commercial Courts to be fair. A lot of pride and egos swaggering around that prevent commerciality prevailing. The disproportionate legal costs and risk/reward ratio is out of kilter a lot of the time and whilst many point a finger of blame at the lawyers, they are acting on the instruction of their clients at the end of the day. Whilst there are no doubt some that gild their own lily in their advice, most in my profession would encourage a commercial approach to litigation and yet many times the principle can become the overriding focus to the point people become blinkered and aggrieved only. I can totally understand how this happens, especially in the family Courts, but if it could be viewed as nothing more than a business transaction it would perhaps lead to a different approach. My ex and I split about eighteen years ago when the kids were very young. As my parent's divorce was acrimonious I was keen to avoid that at all costs. Fortunately she knew how it affected me and understood why I didn't want that for my kids.
I had to pretend to be friends for eighteen years, let a lot of stuff slip that was patently wrong but the end result was worth it.
We weren't married which helped financially, but because the birth was pre-2003 I had less rights in the eyes of the law (like that seems to matter) hence being Mr Nice Guy.
My advice FWIW, if you can take a few hits you'd rather not to avoid the courts I'd do it...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Interesting observations and I confess to (thankfully) having little exposure to family lawyers or Courts. I do wonder if some of the unnecessary spend (including disbursements) is partly then brought about by the quality of the lawyer(s) as much as a desire to milk as much as possible from a case. I quite often see matters drawn out in commercial lit by an incompetence and failure to really pinpoint the real issues of a case as much as anything else. Concentrate the issues succinctly and you can avoid meandering down paths that are largely irrelevant. The problem arises of course when one party trots off down a pointless path but meaning everyone else must follow to counter the points raised and/or avoid any risk to a client just in case.
Very sad to witness it in non-commercial proceedings, especially with kids' lives being thrown around as collateral.
Divorce, or even a non-married relationship breakdown where there are children, is very much like a duel. The opponents meet at the appointed hour and the master of ceremonies hands the male duellist a knife, and the female duellist an M50 machine gun. She's probably going to use it.
Just to make some of you guys aware who are currently going through it all, I have a distinct feeling these threads on PH are being monitored/discussed on mumsnet, net mums etc.
It would be easy enough for my ex to work out who I am , given some of the background I have posted. Plus she had her lawyer reference my previous PH threads in court, so they also knew my old user name back then.
Some of you may recall The serious claim by her barrister in court that I actually owned a Tristar as one of my alleged "hidden" assets!
Anyway I collected my youngest daughter in the week and took her out as it was her birthday.
She casually mentioned something that her mother could only have picked up directly from this thread, as I had never discussed the issue ever with her, or anyone else, and only mentioned the matter a few weeks back on PH.
So if you could be identified from these threads just be aware PH may also be mentioned in your court case!
It would be easy enough for my ex to work out who I am , given some of the background I have posted. Plus she had her lawyer reference my previous PH threads in court, so they also knew my old user name back then.
Some of you may recall The serious claim by her barrister in court that I actually owned a Tristar as one of my alleged "hidden" assets!
Anyway I collected my youngest daughter in the week and took her out as it was her birthday.
She casually mentioned something that her mother could only have picked up directly from this thread, as I had never discussed the issue ever with her, or anyone else, and only mentioned the matter a few weeks back on PH.
So if you could be identified from these threads just be aware PH may also be mentioned in your court case!
Edited by PAUL500 on Friday 6th April 12:03
What a nuisance! I hope this didn't cause you any great difficulties Paul.
Thankfully my ex was never aware of my time on PH, and nor was she the type to look at forums herself.
Latest update from me: I have now received Courts papers on the fact finding held for the occupation order hearing. But they have reported the directions from this under the Child Arrangements Order. What is even more frustrating, is that in this fact finding hearing, they would not give any consideration to my papers I submitted under the Child Arrangements Order because they said it wasn't relevant for the Occupation Order case!
I have been royally stitched up by the Courts here. The courts paper said there was a full fact hearing on the Child Arrangements Order matter which is not correct.
Does anyone know if there is anything I can do to dispute this?
Thanks.
Thankfully my ex was never aware of my time on PH, and nor was she the type to look at forums herself.
Latest update from me: I have now received Courts papers on the fact finding held for the occupation order hearing. But they have reported the directions from this under the Child Arrangements Order. What is even more frustrating, is that in this fact finding hearing, they would not give any consideration to my papers I submitted under the Child Arrangements Order because they said it wasn't relevant for the Occupation Order case!
I have been royally stitched up by the Courts here. The courts paper said there was a full fact hearing on the Child Arrangements Order matter which is not correct.
Does anyone know if there is anything I can do to dispute this?
Thanks.
Not an issue for me as its all history now thankfully. I only relay facts on here anyway.
In your matter all you can really do is make the judge aware at the next session and in your submissions for that hearing. They wont take any notice anyway sorry :-(
In one of my hearings I only realised after the event that the other side had omitted quite a bit of my detail evidence in the bundle they that submitted to the judge, a copy of which they only provided to me half way through the hearing! rather than a week before!
I wrote to the judge that night making him aware of such before he presented his decision, the court wrote back saying I should have told him at the time! how the hell was I supposed to give evidence and look in detail at a document 2 inches thick. I had already submitted my evidence to court, but all the judge ever looks at is the bundle on the day.
In your matter all you can really do is make the judge aware at the next session and in your submissions for that hearing. They wont take any notice anyway sorry :-(
In one of my hearings I only realised after the event that the other side had omitted quite a bit of my detail evidence in the bundle they that submitted to the judge, a copy of which they only provided to me half way through the hearing! rather than a week before!
I wrote to the judge that night making him aware of such before he presented his decision, the court wrote back saying I should have told him at the time! how the hell was I supposed to give evidence and look in detail at a document 2 inches thick. I had already submitted my evidence to court, but all the judge ever looks at is the bundle on the day.
PAUL500 said:
So if you could be identified from these threads just be aware PH may also be mentioned in your court case!
This is certainly something I thought when a similar thread to this one disappeared without trace recently. I am hoping the OP of that one is doing ok....PAUL500, I remember your tale about the Tristar, gave me a laugh, though tinged with pain as it shows that legal teams will trawl through everything possible and claim all sorts of things, to discredit the opposition.
Paul
In my case the courts said they had lost my bundle! When I held up my file and said everything is in here if they want to see it, they said no as it's not relevant to the occupation hearing and that it's a matter for the child arrangements order hearing.
So you can imagine my surprise when I saw the courts directions following the occupation order headed with Child Arrangements Order!
I'm fully aware I'm fighting a losing battle given the courts incompetencies to date.
Somehow I need to let cafcass aware of my concerns when they contact me for the section 7 report. I also understand I need to adopt the strategy of being positive about the ex and focusing on the future, rather than slinging dirt from the past. Again, following Tonker's experiences, I don't have high expectations.
In my case the courts said they had lost my bundle! When I held up my file and said everything is in here if they want to see it, they said no as it's not relevant to the occupation hearing and that it's a matter for the child arrangements order hearing.
So you can imagine my surprise when I saw the courts directions following the occupation order headed with Child Arrangements Order!
I'm fully aware I'm fighting a losing battle given the courts incompetencies to date.
Somehow I need to let cafcass aware of my concerns when they contact me for the section 7 report. I also understand I need to adopt the strategy of being positive about the ex and focusing on the future, rather than slinging dirt from the past. Again, following Tonker's experiences, I don't have high expectations.
MYOB said:
Somehow I need to let cafcass aware of my concerns when they contact me for the section 7 report. I also understand I need to adopt the strategy of being positive about the ex and focusing on the future, rather than slinging dirt from the past. Again, following Tonker's experiences, I don't have high expectations.
I wouldn't hold your breath when dealing with CAFCASS..........They will ignore any concerns you have and not take notice of anything you have put forward in writing as evidence.
Expect nothing and you won't be upset when you get less than nothing!
To be fair they do an excellent job of being biased and bigoted
Keep us updated and let us know if comments by posters on this thread are wide of the mark after your meeting with CAFCASS
Good luck! you'll need a miracle
I know how hard things can be and feel for those posting their experience on here.
I divorced with 5 and 7yr old boys 24 years ago. I used a solicitor (experienced in family law) at every stage and it paid off in my case. I got the access I was entitled to (50% of non-school time). It was all defined by the court.
The ex hated it but had to comply as she knew We would be back in court if she didn't. After a while I think she realised there were benefits to me having the boys every other weekend and half the holidays.
The old clothes thing is standard, so get used to it. You are in it for the long haul. My youngest son now lives with us (I remarried and have a daughter) and would not live with is mother. My older son (a dentist) removed one of my teeth today FOC and has moved to 5 miles away (30 miles from his mother) and we have done Le Mans together twice in the last 5 years.
I am just trying to show that the pain and effort are worth it.
My financial planning (for when I pop my clogs) is being designed to leave my estate in trust so that my children receive an income, rather than an asset, so that any of their current or future partner/wife/husband will not be able to walk off with a major part of the asset.
I divorced with 5 and 7yr old boys 24 years ago. I used a solicitor (experienced in family law) at every stage and it paid off in my case. I got the access I was entitled to (50% of non-school time). It was all defined by the court.
The ex hated it but had to comply as she knew We would be back in court if she didn't. After a while I think she realised there were benefits to me having the boys every other weekend and half the holidays.
The old clothes thing is standard, so get used to it. You are in it for the long haul. My youngest son now lives with us (I remarried and have a daughter) and would not live with is mother. My older son (a dentist) removed one of my teeth today FOC and has moved to 5 miles away (30 miles from his mother) and we have done Le Mans together twice in the last 5 years.
I am just trying to show that the pain and effort are worth it.
My financial planning (for when I pop my clogs) is being designed to leave my estate in trust so that my children receive an income, rather than an asset, so that any of their current or future partner/wife/husband will not be able to walk off with a major part of the asset.
lurked on this thread for a while and am staggered at the bias shown by the family courts towards mothers when children are involved.
Empty nest is exactly what caused our break up, underlying issues were masked by the hustle and bustle of kids. Minor trust issues going back 10 -15 years never really disappeared but ultimately made my life hell, we fell out of love and decided we'd both be better off if I went.
So I moved out of the family home 4 months ago but as my 2 children are 21 and 19 and at Uni, not 100% sure how I stand. Currently still paying ALL the bills for the 4 bed house, her/our car bills and all the kids' spending money. She only has a part time job but refuses to get a 2nd job so is getting by on about £500-600 a month, but that's purely her pocket money. My solicitor says I should gradually stop paying the bills, e.g April cancel Sky/broadband, May stop council tax etc. then she'd have to get another job.
But as the kids are back for easter and will be there for 3 months over Summer I can hear the slagging off Dad will be getting when there's no Sky/Netflix/internet etc. So it looks like I'm gonna have to keep paying until it's all resolved and the house is sold, and it's not even on the market yet as her solicitor told her not to sell it!.
Currently lodging at a good friends (not another women) who isn't rushing me at all, but obviously I'm paying so money a bit tight all round, got a fair bit in savings but as that's all been disclosed to solicitors I can't really touch it.
Oh, and the ex hates my guts and barely communicates unless it's money related.
Hey ho, on the upside, I do love not going home to her every night. Bliss
Empty nest is exactly what caused our break up, underlying issues were masked by the hustle and bustle of kids. Minor trust issues going back 10 -15 years never really disappeared but ultimately made my life hell, we fell out of love and decided we'd both be better off if I went.
So I moved out of the family home 4 months ago but as my 2 children are 21 and 19 and at Uni, not 100% sure how I stand. Currently still paying ALL the bills for the 4 bed house, her/our car bills and all the kids' spending money. She only has a part time job but refuses to get a 2nd job so is getting by on about £500-600 a month, but that's purely her pocket money. My solicitor says I should gradually stop paying the bills, e.g April cancel Sky/broadband, May stop council tax etc. then she'd have to get another job.
But as the kids are back for easter and will be there for 3 months over Summer I can hear the slagging off Dad will be getting when there's no Sky/Netflix/internet etc. So it looks like I'm gonna have to keep paying until it's all resolved and the house is sold, and it's not even on the market yet as her solicitor told her not to sell it!.
Currently lodging at a good friends (not another women) who isn't rushing me at all, but obviously I'm paying so money a bit tight all round, got a fair bit in savings but as that's all been disclosed to solicitors I can't really touch it.
Oh, and the ex hates my guts and barely communicates unless it's money related.
Hey ho, on the upside, I do love not going home to her every night. Bliss
ironv8 said:
lurked on this thread for a while and am staggered at the bias shown by the family courts towards mothers when children are involved.
Empty nest is exactly what caused our break up, underlying issues were masked by the hustle and bustle of kids. Minor trust issues going back 10 -15 years never really disappeared but ultimately made my life hell, we fell out of love and decided we'd both be better off if I went.
So I moved out of the family home 4 months ago but as my 2 children are 21 and 19 and at Uni, not 100% sure how I stand. Currently still paying ALL the bills for the 4 bed house, her/our car bills and all the kids' spending money. She only has a part time job but refuses to get a 2nd job so is getting by on about £500-600 a month, but that's purely her pocket money. My solicitor says I should gradually stop paying the bills, e.g April cancel Sky/broadband, May stop council tax etc. then she'd have to get another job.
But as the kids are back for easter and will be there for 3 months over Summer I can hear the slagging off Dad will be getting when there's no Sky/Netflix/internet etc. So it looks like I'm gonna have to keep paying until it's all resolved and the house is sold, and it's not even on the market yet as her solicitor told her not to sell it!.
Currently lodging at a good friends (not another women) who isn't rushing me at all, but obviously I'm paying so money a bit tight all round, got a fair bit in savings but as that's all been disclosed to solicitors I can't really touch it.
Oh, and the ex hates my guts and barely communicates unless it's money related.
Hey ho, on the upside, I do love not going home to her every night. Bliss
Feel for you, certainly not where you want to be once the kids have grown up and you’ve been together for so long . Empty nest is exactly what caused our break up, underlying issues were masked by the hustle and bustle of kids. Minor trust issues going back 10 -15 years never really disappeared but ultimately made my life hell, we fell out of love and decided we'd both be better off if I went.
So I moved out of the family home 4 months ago but as my 2 children are 21 and 19 and at Uni, not 100% sure how I stand. Currently still paying ALL the bills for the 4 bed house, her/our car bills and all the kids' spending money. She only has a part time job but refuses to get a 2nd job so is getting by on about £500-600 a month, but that's purely her pocket money. My solicitor says I should gradually stop paying the bills, e.g April cancel Sky/broadband, May stop council tax etc. then she'd have to get another job.
But as the kids are back for easter and will be there for 3 months over Summer I can hear the slagging off Dad will be getting when there's no Sky/Netflix/internet etc. So it looks like I'm gonna have to keep paying until it's all resolved and the house is sold, and it's not even on the market yet as her solicitor told her not to sell it!.
Currently lodging at a good friends (not another women) who isn't rushing me at all, but obviously I'm paying so money a bit tight all round, got a fair bit in savings but as that's all been disclosed to solicitors I can't really touch it.
Oh, and the ex hates my guts and barely communicates unless it's money related.
Hey ho, on the upside, I do love not going home to her every night. Bliss
Courts always side with the mother it seems standard practice these days .
The only real winners are the solicitors as we know . Women scorned are a nightmare.
All the best
Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff