Paranormal experiences
Discussion
Efbe said:
Orch-OR (Hameroff/ Penrose) is a theory with some traction around the soul. completely with some highly regarded scientists to explain it. I'll let you google it so I do not seem to be swaying arguments one way or the other.
It may be good science, or may be rubbish with the sole purpose of getting funding. I won't make any judgements on it here.
I had a quick look but I think I am missing something (Wiki). All it seems to be about is exactly where in the brain processes occur and I saw no link to souls or anything similar suggested?It may be good science, or may be rubbish with the sole purpose of getting funding. I won't make any judgements on it here.
Efbe said:
going back to your post, not to be too argumentative, but my point is that we cannot actually explain away any of this, because our own explanations are based on something we do not fully understand. How can I say I can see something, if I do not understand how I am seeing, either of how my brain is able to function, of whether the light travelling from/to the object is doing in a way I can explain, or that the object is indeed an object, and then what I am able to see is all there actually is, and I am not immeasurably limited by not being able to see other dimensions/forms of matter/energy/forces etc.
Again, I get your rationale but if presented with a unexplainable situation and the possible explanations are:1. Various factors like the mind mis-processing visuals combined with x,y and z which almost explain it but are likely missing a factor to fully explain it or
2. A hypothetical theory with nothing tangible to support it
it is not rational to think that (2) is worth considering, even if that theory technically has some merit.
Here's a non-paranormal example:
Time travel is theoretically possible, so Stephen Hawkins tells us and I believe this to the extent I see it as probably fact despite it being unproven.
Say you spoke to a friend on the phone who was coming to see you and he said his sat nav told him he was an hour away and two minutes later he pulls up on your drive. Stretch the analogy even further and he believes that he has driven for an hour since you spoke.
Time travel would not even remotely be considered as an explanation for this even though this theory is probably valid because even though you cannot explain this situation there are a bunch of likely answers and then this one explaination that is so massively unlikely as to not be worth considering.
To ask this all another way as you obviously have some kind of thought process:
You believe that there is a possibility that we have souls that can leave our body and exist independently. What figure do you put on that possibility?
Is it a one in three chance that this happens or a one in a billion billion?
If it is the latter, I probably completely agree with you but numbers that tiny are so irrelevant in considering whether something is possible or not that for my purposes this constitutes complete impossibility
Edited by blindswelledrat on Friday 6th January 14:33
HarryW said:
boobles said:
Jimmy Recard said:
Wednesday, Thursday and Friday this week, three different cars have parked in the same spot at work. Each day at almost exactly 9am, the alarm on each car went off.
One of the owners reckons it's paranormal. I think it's one of two things:
A) a weird phenomenon like the sun hitting the glass in a certain way and refracting and confusing the sensors
B) older cars (the youngest of the three is a 55 plate) having imperfect electrics and coincidentally doing that
99% of me leans towards B
Or C - Somebody playing silly buggers.One of the owners reckons it's paranormal. I think it's one of two things:
A) a weird phenomenon like the sun hitting the glass in a certain way and refracting and confusing the sensors
B) older cars (the youngest of the three is a 55 plate) having imperfect electrics and coincidentally doing that
99% of me leans towards B
I've got a load of other ideas for what it could be. Normally the extractor tower is turned on at 7:30am, but if it started at 9am this week, that could do it.
I'm pretty sure it started at 7:30am as normal.
I'm putting it down to coincidence. There are various reasons I don't think anyone has messed with the cars. That said, I wasn't even there when the alarms went off (my car yesterday but it had stopped when I got there)
Another one which may be of interest.
My Dad lived alone for about ten years in an old railway man's cottage in Macclesfield. A little two up/two down built in the 1880s. A few times, he was sat in the front room watching tv, when the sound of a very loud crash came from the kitchen area. Each time, he went out there fully expecting to see a wall cupboard on the floor, such was the noise. Everything was fine though. The back door out onto the little yard out the back was always locked, and there was never anybody who shouldn't have been in the yard.
He never did get to the bottom of it.
My Dad lived alone for about ten years in an old railway man's cottage in Macclesfield. A little two up/two down built in the 1880s. A few times, he was sat in the front room watching tv, when the sound of a very loud crash came from the kitchen area. Each time, he went out there fully expecting to see a wall cupboard on the floor, such was the noise. Everything was fine though. The back door out onto the little yard out the back was always locked, and there was never anybody who shouldn't have been in the yard.
He never did get to the bottom of it.
alock said:
Stuff
I think I put in one of my previous posts that I had been describing all of this in a somewhat light-hearted fashion to help readability and brevity.I do write in a way to suggest most people do not understand what we have been discussing. This is true, I mentioned it in one of my earlier posts, in addition a belief in something intangible you don't understand in science is not so far removed from this thread's topic.
blindswelledrat said:
more stuff
I am not actually saying I am in support of the paranormal, spirits/souls. I just accept that it could be a possibility, and will not ridicule something that has been believed in by the vast majority of humanity.Timetravel is something I do not believe works, more just a consequence of error in our current theories. If time was able to be manipulated in this way I would expect to see far more evidence. MWI is the same. To me these are way more far fetched than the concept of a consciousness separate to the brains mechanics.
Time dilation is something entirely different ofc, a founding principal of relativity.
Some interesting experiences, theories, and science particularly, thanks.
However, when considering whether ghosts for example, exist, most of the discussion has first assumed that if they exist at all, they do so separate entity, they are a 'thing'.
It could be that the experience of a ghost went on entirely in the head of the person experiencing it. Not imagining it necessarily, but reacting to a set of circumstances in a certain way.
Maybe, maybe not, like all other explanations, guesswork.
I look forward to science understanding it better, but it seems hard to pin down a starting point for a theory without first making assumptions about what you're trying to dis/prove.
However, when considering whether ghosts for example, exist, most of the discussion has first assumed that if they exist at all, they do so separate entity, they are a 'thing'.
It could be that the experience of a ghost went on entirely in the head of the person experiencing it. Not imagining it necessarily, but reacting to a set of circumstances in a certain way.
Maybe, maybe not, like all other explanations, guesswork.
I look forward to science understanding it better, but it seems hard to pin down a starting point for a theory without first making assumptions about what you're trying to dis/prove.
Einion Yrth said:
We have to compensate for time dilation to make GPS work, transistors required the use of quantum mechanics to get working. What anyone is prepared to "believe" is utterly irrelevant; the maths works and that's currently what we need to know.
And it gives you comfort to believe in that.hora said:
Einion Yrth said:
We have to compensate for time dilation to make GPS work, transistors required the use of quantum mechanics to get working. What anyone is prepared to "believe" is utterly irrelevant; the maths works and that's currently what we need to know.
And it gives you comfort to believe in that.drainbrain said:
I've thought of one.
What about couples - invariably of very long standing - who seem to die within a very short space of each other; sometimes almost simultaneously? It's not even especially uncommon.
What's the rational explanation of that?
both similar dying age anyway..shock stress finishes the other one off What about couples - invariably of very long standing - who seem to die within a very short space of each other; sometimes almost simultaneously? It's not even especially uncommon.
What's the rational explanation of that?
I think people can sometimes will themselves dead.
It's probably easier if you are very old.
Long story short. I had a friend whose partner died. He was late 40s and just couldn't get over it. A very successful and popular man. Nothing could shift him from his depression.
One day he missed a night out meeting with friends. They couldn't raise him so went to his home where they found him dead in a chair cuddling his dog. He died of natural causes. No pills, no accident while drunk. He told me he didn't like living a few weeks before he died. I think he just somehow flipped the off switch.
(It was the best funeral ever. A proper celebration where my mate copped off with one of his staff.)
(The dog went to live with a nice family with kids.)
It's probably easier if you are very old.
Long story short. I had a friend whose partner died. He was late 40s and just couldn't get over it. A very successful and popular man. Nothing could shift him from his depression.
One day he missed a night out meeting with friends. They couldn't raise him so went to his home where they found him dead in a chair cuddling his dog. He died of natural causes. No pills, no accident while drunk. He told me he didn't like living a few weeks before he died. I think he just somehow flipped the off switch.
(It was the best funeral ever. A proper celebration where my mate copped off with one of his staff.)
(The dog went to live with a nice family with kids.)
steveo3002 said:
drainbrain said:
I've thought of one.
What about couples - invariably of very long standing - who seem to die within a very short space of each other; sometimes almost simultaneously? It's not even especially uncommon.
What's the rational explanation of that?
both similar dying age anyway..shock stress finishes the other one off What about couples - invariably of very long standing - who seem to die within a very short space of each other; sometimes almost simultaneously? It's not even especially uncommon.
What's the rational explanation of that?
ash73 said:
Efbe said:
Timetravel is something I do not believe works, more just a consequence of error in our current theories. If time was able to be manipulated in this way I would expect to see far more evidence. MWI is the same. To me these are way more far fetched than the concept of a consciousness separate to the brains mechanics.
Time dilation is something entirely different ofc, a founding principal of relativity.
How can you not believe in time travel if you accept time dilation? One is a mechanism to achieve the other. There are many examples of direct observation; exotic particles "living" longer in the LHC, clocks running slower on the ISS versus clocks running faster on satellites in high orbit, etc. Sat-nav wouldn't work if we didn't compensate for relativity.Time dilation is something entirely different ofc, a founding principal of relativity.
Get on a rocket travelling at relativistic speeds, come back a year later and more time will have passed here, congratulations you have travelled into our future. Go and orbit a black hole near the EH and pop back a year later, same thing. It's simple maths, you believe 2+2=4, right? Einstein's genius was he accepted what the maths told him.
Time dilation is the difference in measurement between two points of the relative progression of time.
Bring them back together and time will be the same.
This is not time travel.
I do not think time travel can happen. The measurements of the LHC(actually I thought this specific example I think you are referring to is from Australia) are exactly the type of conclusion I am highlighting as dubious in the scientific community. It involved a wormhole, photons and an interaction that they are trying to persuade us means one photon went back in time to affect it's future self.
really? Even basics in causation should tell you if something did go back in time to affect itself, then it would be in a different state to go back in time in the first place so would not be affecting itself at all. Time travel does not and cannot work.
But that is for another thread.
So believing in time travel is ok, believing in a new form of energy/mass we cannot see/detect or measure is ok, believing in wormholes that come from startrek is ok, but believing in an energy form that has been detected (orch-or) surviving death (even if just for a brief moment) is not ok.
ash73 said:
Nope.
Astronauts on ISS 0.007s younger
http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/station/crew/exp7/lule...
Here's a simple example in nature:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Relativ...
From our perspective the muon's time slows, its half-life increases, whereas from the muon's perspective it travels a shorter distance so it experiences less time. The end result is the same; it travels into Earth's future. You could do the same and visit your great-great-grandson with a fast enough rocket.
I agree you can't go back in time.
again, the basis of there being any change in time is the assumption that our theories on perspective, measurement and relativity are all correct. I don't believe they are. It is confirmation bias. The scientists are looking to prove time alteration, so they find it.Astronauts on ISS 0.007s younger
http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/station/crew/exp7/lule...
Here's a simple example in nature:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Relativ...
From our perspective the muon's time slows, its half-life increases, whereas from the muon's perspective it travels a shorter distance so it experiences less time. The end result is the same; it travels into Earth's future. You could do the same and visit your great-great-grandson with a fast enough rocket.
I agree you can't go back in time.
This is for me the same logic that says my cat stared at a wall. I don't stare at walls, therefore there is a ghost in my wall
ash73 said:
blindswelledrat said:
Here's a non-paranormal example:
Time travel is theoretically possible, so Stephen Hawkins tells us and I believe this to the extent I see it as probably fact despite it being unproven.
Just a small point, not wishing to detract from your example, time dilation due to relativity is proven.Time travel is theoretically possible, so Stephen Hawkins tells us and I believe this to the extent I see it as probably fact despite it being unproven.
Efbe said:
ash73 said:
Nope.
Astronauts on ISS 0.007s younger
http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/station/crew/exp7/lule...
Here's a simple example in nature:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Relativ...
From our perspective the muon's time slows, its half-life increases, whereas from the muon's perspective it travels a shorter distance so it experiences less time. The end result is the same; it travels into Earth's future. You could do the same and visit your great-great-grandson with a fast enough rocket.
I agree you can't go back in time.
again, the basis of there being any change in time is the assumption that our theories on perspective, measurement and relativity are all correct. I don't believe they are. It is confirmation bias. The scientists are looking to prove time alteration, so they find it.Astronauts on ISS 0.007s younger
http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/station/crew/exp7/lule...
Here's a simple example in nature:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Relativ...
From our perspective the muon's time slows, its half-life increases, whereas from the muon's perspective it travels a shorter distance so it experiences less time. The end result is the same; it travels into Earth's future. You could do the same and visit your great-great-grandson with a fast enough rocket.
I agree you can't go back in time.
This is for me the same logic that says my cat stared at a wall. I don't stare at walls, therefore there is a ghost in my wall
ofcorsa said:
You can disbelieve all you like, but I'd like to see your working out.
unsure which bucket you fall into...Crazy Cat lady:
var wall = 1
var cat = 1
cat + wall != paranormal entity watching your cat.
Dr Who time traveller:
time dilation != time travel.
time travel != travelling at SoL so you experience less time.
time travel = being able to move backwards and forwards in time as in the photon experiment. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2015/feb/...
photon time travel = what I disbelieve. No calculations required...
...The claim is that we send a photon through a wormhole to affect it's past self.
But, the moment we send it, the current photon's attributes change.
We could either claim the experiment itself is changing the photon, by the act of measuring it (as is common in modern encryption) or we could wildly assume the photon has travelled back in time to affect itself(breaking general relativity).
the onus is not on me to prove Godzilla did not wipe out Osaka, it's on you. Otherwise I say Cthulhu moved the photon back in time. Prove me wrong.
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