Half a world, and half a lifetime away.
Discussion
I think the Sea Wolf system was not very effective at all (Senior Naval bods placed far too much faith in it and I think they disregarded Phalanx because we 'didn't need it') and I seem to remember the targetters losing the enemy aircraft because one of the fleet sailed in between. Only reason we didn't lose a carrier (conflict losing event) was that Exocet went for the largest target thinking that would be a carrier but in our case it was Atlantic Conveyor!!!
Also, I think Javelin (shoulder launched) was almost completely rubbish and Rapier took a while to get up and running, if at all.
So we had poor equipment and placed too much emphesis on it and were, just prior to the conflict, in the middle of selling shed loads of stuff off to save money (Defence Review)
How we won it all was basically down to those operating at the cutting edge (Navy Army and RAF) Amazing really...
Also, I think Javelin (shoulder launched) was almost completely rubbish and Rapier took a while to get up and running, if at all.
So we had poor equipment and placed too much emphesis on it and were, just prior to the conflict, in the middle of selling shed loads of stuff off to save money (Defence Review)
How we won it all was basically down to those operating at the cutting edge (Navy Army and RAF) Amazing really...
Gerber1 said:
Surface to air missles?
Why was there no air cover when the ships were in San Carlos bay?
Why was there no air cover when the ships were in San Carlos bay?
Gerber1 said:
Surface to air missles?
Why was there no air cover when the ships were in San Carlos bay?
In addition to what has been posted, I believe there were "disagreements" between the aircraft managed by Hermes (Sandy Woodward) and those managed by Invincible, which led to our air cover not being as good as it could have been for the ships. Sharkey Ward has had a bee in his bonnet for years about the differing approach to Combat Air Patrol by the two sections.Why was there no air cover when the ships were in San Carlos bay?
This is a great book about the conflict which I've had for years:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Falklands-War-Full-Story/...
Gerber1 said:
Watching documentaries about the Falklands, I'm amazed/disappointed to hear that we got our arses handed to us.
Granted we "won", but how on earth did the Argentinians manage to sink or damage so many of our ships?
Maybe I am blinkered but I would have though that our weapons and tactics would have been superior to Argentina's.
Off on a tangent, but I wonder if the US could have done any better.
The RN of 1982's purpose was maintaining North Atlantic seaways in the event of WW3, the equipment to deal with opposed beach landings, air attack from modern aircraft without 3rd party AEW support, littoral warfare etc. were either non-existent(coastal forces), reduced to a barely functional shell(mine warfare), mothballed(the assault ships) or being sold off(Invincible to the australians). If the argies had waited 6 months before invading the RN would have been unable to actually carry out Op Corporate. As for losing ships that's fighting a war for you, going into harm's way involves getting shot at; the argies attacked everything other than the vessels carrying the landing forces.Granted we "won", but how on earth did the Argentinians manage to sink or damage so many of our ships?
Maybe I am blinkered but I would have though that our weapons and tactics would have been superior to Argentina's.
Off on a tangent, but I wonder if the US could have done any better.
The army had similar problems, being trained and equipped to resist being rolled over by the 3rd Shock Army was not helpful, there was heavy reliance upon Royal Marine knowledge, tactics and equipment.
From an equipment and manpower perspective the US could have done it with one hand behind their back, a carrier battle group and a USMC amphibious assault group would have made short work of flattening Port Stanley and probably attempt a forced landing somewhere near to Stanley, such as Bluff Cove or Berkeley Sound. They liked the idea so much they invaded Grenada the year after and shot some Cubans.
Much of the performance of the RN down there was hampered by the legacy of the 1966 defence review.
Had that not have happened, it is likely there would have been no war, but if there had been i believe it would have been much shorter and less bloody.
The Sea Harrier did a magnificent job. However the two new carriers that were cancelled in 1966 would have been able to introduce Phantom jets into the air defence round the Falklands. Fast interceptors which could have taken out ARG jets long before they got anywhere near the islands and the fleet.
Airborne Early Warning in the shape of the stubby old Gannet would. Have given commanders and fighter controllers a better set of eyes.
The Buccaneer would also have been there as a superb means of taking out ground targets. It's an unlikely scenario, but it would have given the UK the option of attacking bases on the mainland.
Hermes most probably would have been there but as a Commando Carrier - an LPH capable of delivering troops by air - so no Yomping across the islands.
That said, the escort ships would likely have been the same or similar types.
Sea Dart would have been at sea on big Type 82 vessels. Operating in open water with plenty of sky for the sensors to see, not as happened operating in the littorals where headlands, hills and general geography got in the way.
Similarly Sea Wolf. The ships in and and around San Carlos would have needed basic point air defence butt with air superiority only a few 'leakers' would have made it through. (It could still have failed though.)
We'd probably not lost air defence ships like Sheffield and Coventry. Antelope and Ardent - or whatever ships would have been in their place - would still have been destroyed. As i said, the odd ARG jet would have been bound to get through and those two ships, especially Ardent were doing exactly what they were supposed to do by getting in harm's way.
It is worth noting that both Sea Dart and Sea Wolf went on to be refined and became very good weapons. Sea Dart especially evolved into a pretty decent bit of kit backed but by improved ship sensors like the 1022 and 996 radars which moved the RN away from essentially 1950s technology.
Sea Wolf had a pretty bad bug in its system which meant that it could fail at the crucial moment. This was addressed and the vertical launch GWS26 version of the missile is now 35 years on, begining to leave service.
As stated above, the RN of 1982 wasn't built for brutal one-to-one fighting in the equivalent of a Scottish sea loch. It was very broadly speaking, an integrated sub hunting specialist part of NATO designed to last a few weeks/months against Russian subs and long range bombers in the Greenland/UK/Iceland gap.
That said, the RN did a largely magnificent job in 1982. As did all the services. BZ
Had that not have happened, it is likely there would have been no war, but if there had been i believe it would have been much shorter and less bloody.
The Sea Harrier did a magnificent job. However the two new carriers that were cancelled in 1966 would have been able to introduce Phantom jets into the air defence round the Falklands. Fast interceptors which could have taken out ARG jets long before they got anywhere near the islands and the fleet.
Airborne Early Warning in the shape of the stubby old Gannet would. Have given commanders and fighter controllers a better set of eyes.
The Buccaneer would also have been there as a superb means of taking out ground targets. It's an unlikely scenario, but it would have given the UK the option of attacking bases on the mainland.
Hermes most probably would have been there but as a Commando Carrier - an LPH capable of delivering troops by air - so no Yomping across the islands.
That said, the escort ships would likely have been the same or similar types.
Sea Dart would have been at sea on big Type 82 vessels. Operating in open water with plenty of sky for the sensors to see, not as happened operating in the littorals where headlands, hills and general geography got in the way.
Similarly Sea Wolf. The ships in and and around San Carlos would have needed basic point air defence butt with air superiority only a few 'leakers' would have made it through. (It could still have failed though.)
We'd probably not lost air defence ships like Sheffield and Coventry. Antelope and Ardent - or whatever ships would have been in their place - would still have been destroyed. As i said, the odd ARG jet would have been bound to get through and those two ships, especially Ardent were doing exactly what they were supposed to do by getting in harm's way.
It is worth noting that both Sea Dart and Sea Wolf went on to be refined and became very good weapons. Sea Dart especially evolved into a pretty decent bit of kit backed but by improved ship sensors like the 1022 and 996 radars which moved the RN away from essentially 1950s technology.
Sea Wolf had a pretty bad bug in its system which meant that it could fail at the crucial moment. This was addressed and the vertical launch GWS26 version of the missile is now 35 years on, begining to leave service.
As stated above, the RN of 1982 wasn't built for brutal one-to-one fighting in the equivalent of a Scottish sea loch. It was very broadly speaking, an integrated sub hunting specialist part of NATO designed to last a few weeks/months against Russian subs and long range bombers in the Greenland/UK/Iceland gap.
That said, the RN did a largely magnificent job in 1982. As did all the services. BZ
Edited by wildcat45 on Saturday 15th April 07:50
Good explanation Wildcat - thanks for taking the time to post it.
15th April
Argentina dispatches a 40-man platoon to South Georgia in the WWII era submarine Santa Fe, on the off chance that the British might execute a much-speculated 'South Georgia' option: The small island is much further from the Argentine mainland, and so much harder to defend.
British destroyer group takes up holding position in mid-Atlantic.
Haig returns to Buenos Aires.
SD.
15th April
Argentina dispatches a 40-man platoon to South Georgia in the WWII era submarine Santa Fe, on the off chance that the British might execute a much-speculated 'South Georgia' option: The small island is much further from the Argentine mainland, and so much harder to defend.
British destroyer group takes up holding position in mid-Atlantic.
Haig returns to Buenos Aires.
SD.
shed driver said:
Good explanation Wildcat - thanks for taking the time to post it.
15th April
Argentina dispatches a 40-man platoon to South Georgia in the WWII era submarine Santa Fe, on the off chance that the British might execute a much-speculated 'South Georgia' option: The small island is much further from the Argentine mainland, and so much harder to defend.
British destroyer group takes up holding position in mid-Atlantic.
Haig returns to Buenos Aires.
SD.
A pleasure. The RN and the Falklands is a pet subject of mine.15th April
Argentina dispatches a 40-man platoon to South Georgia in the WWII era submarine Santa Fe, on the off chance that the British might execute a much-speculated 'South Georgia' option: The small island is much further from the Argentine mainland, and so much harder to defend.
British destroyer group takes up holding position in mid-Atlantic.
Haig returns to Buenos Aires.
SD.
Very interesting information, thanks for posting.
I had a friend in the marines/commandos or whatever they were called, who fought in the Falklands. Also have two friends who went over to rebuild the runway etc after the war ended. All three have some interesting tales about the events that went on and the general lay of the land there.
I had a friend in the marines/commandos or whatever they were called, who fought in the Falklands. Also have two friends who went over to rebuild the runway etc after the war ended. All three have some interesting tales about the events that went on and the general lay of the land there.
Gerber1 said:
shed driver said:
Without total air superiority a ship is very vulnerable. Close in defence such as Phalanx was not available and with limited maneuvering space such as in San Carlos water it was only going to be a matter of whether the land campaign would be concluded before the RN ran out of ships.
SD.
Surface to air missles? SD.
Why was there no air cover when the ships were in San Carlos bay?
After the falklands we switched to proper autonomous Close In Weapons Systems (CIWS) If we had phalanx or goalkeeper at the time it would have been a different story. Its very effective against weapons like Exocet, which are sea skimmers, and passive until the last minute (ie hard to spot)
98elise...ex Phalanx and Exocet operator/maintainer
Edited by 98elise on Saturday 15th April 13:04
Gerber1 said:
Watching documentaries about the Falklands, I'm amazed/disappointed to hear that we got our arses handed to us.
Granted we "won", but how on earth did the Argentinians manage to sink or damage so many of our ships?
Maybe I am blinkered but I would have though that our weapons and tactics would have been superior to Argentina's.
Off on a tangent, but I wonder if the US could have done any better.
One other factor not mentioned so far is the skill and bravery of the Argentine pilots, flying at the limits of their equipment.Granted we "won", but how on earth did the Argentinians manage to sink or damage so many of our ships?
Maybe I am blinkered but I would have though that our weapons and tactics would have been superior to Argentina's.
Off on a tangent, but I wonder if the US could have done any better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjZBFjWszNs
The problem for the RN re: air superiority wasn't just down to the small number of jets they could field.
The carriers were nick named the South African Navy because they were often positioned east of the islands to put distance between them and enemy jets. The downside was that the Sea Harriers had less time to loiter over San Carlos and less time to take action against the enemy.
Not that it was easy going for the brave Argentine pilots. It was a 600 mile trip there and back. 300 there, evade the carriers, find a target, go low, face RN air defences then 300 back potentially being chased by the Harriers while low on fuel and potentially with action damage hampering things further.
It was a swings and roundabouts type of thing. The Argentines had the "luxury" of operating from home bases but after Belgrano's sinking their carrier - which could launch Skyhawks and Exocet carrying Super Etendards -. Was too vulnerable to RN sub attacks so she stayed in port.
The carriers were nick named the South African Navy because they were often positioned east of the islands to put distance between them and enemy jets. The downside was that the Sea Harriers had less time to loiter over San Carlos and less time to take action against the enemy.
Not that it was easy going for the brave Argentine pilots. It was a 600 mile trip there and back. 300 there, evade the carriers, find a target, go low, face RN air defences then 300 back potentially being chased by the Harriers while low on fuel and potentially with action damage hampering things further.
It was a swings and roundabouts type of thing. The Argentines had the "luxury" of operating from home bases but after Belgrano's sinking their carrier - which could launch Skyhawks and Exocet carrying Super Etendards -. Was too vulnerable to RN sub attacks so she stayed in port.
Edited by wildcat45 on Saturday 15th April 16:19
In 1982 my late Dad was a TV producer. I found this in his papers. I've tried to sharpen the image up as best I can.
It's a telegram to my dad from Rex Hunt, Falklands governor. As the Argentines were poised to invade my old man appeared to be after an interview. I'm not sure if it happened as things developed pretty quickly a short time later.
It's a telegram to my dad from Rex Hunt, Falklands governor. As the Argentines were poised to invade my old man appeared to be after an interview. I'm not sure if it happened as things developed pretty quickly a short time later.
Around 1978-9 my dad worked for a company that bought a brand spanking new Bridgeport series 1 CNC mill with a BOSS 1 control for somewhere around £35,000, possibly more.
One day some drawings turned up that none of the managers could fully understand so they were dumped on my dad to decypher.
After about six weeks of programming and a couple of weeks of trial runs there was a semi finished part at which point the customer lost patience and turned up to read the riot act. They quickly shut the f
k up when they saw that 'Your part has raddii, we can't do that!'
A couple of weeks after that there was a finished part which the inspector couldn't inspect as no fker had thought to invent the CMM at that point in time 
So off it went to the customer for their approval, they were happy and asked for more, lots more...
The part in question was a Seawolf missile gyroscope housing.
One day some drawings turned up that none of the managers could fully understand so they were dumped on my dad to decypher.
After about six weeks of programming and a couple of weeks of trial runs there was a semi finished part at which point the customer lost patience and turned up to read the riot act. They quickly shut the f
k up when they saw that 'Your part has raddii, we can't do that!' A couple of weeks after that there was a finished part which the inspector couldn't inspect as no f
ker had thought to invent the CMM at that point in time So off it went to the customer for their approval, they were happy and asked for more, lots more...The part in question was a Seawolf missile gyroscope housing.
I visited the superb National memorial Arboretum near Lichfield on holiday last week:-
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/remembrance/how-we...
Out of the thousands and thousands of names of service men & women that had died in service since the end of WW2, the only name I'd really heard of was Col "H" Jones VC, so I looked for his name, as the deaths are in date order.....
I found it.
This place is definitely one to put on your bucket list.
It's HUGE.
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/remembrance/how-we...
Out of the thousands and thousands of names of service men & women that had died in service since the end of WW2, the only name I'd really heard of was Col "H" Jones VC, so I looked for his name, as the deaths are in date order.....
I found it.
This place is definitely one to put on your bucket list.
It's HUGE.
Some really interesting responses, thanks.
I have some other questions though if anyone cares to speculate.
How close did we come to losing a carrier?
Was destroying Argentine air bases with intercontinental ballistic missile fired from the UK not an option?
After the Belgrano sank all Argentine vessels returned to port, had they not do you think the outcome would have been different?
I have some other questions though if anyone cares to speculate.
How close did we come to losing a carrier?
Was destroying Argentine air bases with intercontinental ballistic missile fired from the UK not an option?
After the Belgrano sank all Argentine vessels returned to port, had they not do you think the outcome would have been different?
Gerber1 said:
Was destroying Argentine air bases with intercontinental ballistic missile fired from the UK not an option?
We have never had ground launched ICBMs. We had and have sub launched icbms, but going nuclear was probably not viewed as proportionate.This was before cruise missiles came into service (just), but the uk didn't get any until much later IIRC.
I thought that part of the psychology of the Blackbuck raids was to tell Argentia that they are within range and we could hit the mainland air fields if desired? The effect of those raids could have been achieved by the Sea Harriers and using much less by way of resources. A debate of later on in this thread.
In the mean time, I have copy of this...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Dont-Cry-Me-Serge...
Some excelent stories from the human perspective and some very personal feelings from those involved. The humour is a little dark in places as you would expect.
In the mean time, I have copy of this...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Dont-Cry-Me-Serge...
Some excelent stories from the human perspective and some very personal feelings from those involved. The humour is a little dark in places as you would expect.
Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff