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Discussion
Yipper said:
Surprised Maggie did not go n*clear. Just drop a couple on Buenos Aries and wrap it up in a few days. Perhaps there were no n*clear subs in the Southern Atlantic at the time.
What an odd post.She didn't do it because she wasn't a psychopath with one eye on the International Criminal Court... this wasn't Japan 1945.
You have to weigh up the gravity of the conflict, was it the Japs who would have fought to the last man incurring hundreds of thousands of needless fatalities? No it was not.
Going 'nuclear' wouldn't even have crossed Maggies mind...
Going 'nuclear' wouldn't even have crossed Maggies mind...
Yipper said:
Great thread.
Surprised Maggie did not go n*clear. Just drop a couple on Buenos Aries and wrap it up in a few days. Perhaps there were no n*clear subs in the Southern Atlantic at the time.
Almost certainly Britain's last great hurrah of Empire. Armed forces are too small and economy too poor now to do it again
Surprised Maggie did not go n*clear. Just drop a couple on Buenos Aries and wrap it up in a few days. Perhaps there were no n*clear subs in the Southern Atlantic at the time.
Almost certainly Britain's last great hurrah of Empire. Armed forces are too small and economy too poor now to do it again
shed driver said:
21st May Supplemental...
The ship's helicopter pilots, Sephton and Murphy, manned the flight deck with a Sterling Submachinegun and a Bren gun...
The ship's helicopter pilots, Sephton and Murphy, manned the flight deck with a Sterling Submachinegun and a Bren gun...
L4 Light Machine Gun...
...although, to be fair, they used to be Bren Guns. Mine, in 1991, had "1944 .303 Bren Mk2" stamped on the body, and two lines were engraved through it and "L4A3 7.62mm Light Machine Gun" engraved below it. They'd been re-chambered, and re-barrelled for the NATO 7.62mm x 51mm round in the late 1950s.
Edited by yellowjack on Monday 22 May 00:41
Vaud said:
Yipper said:
Surprised Maggie did not go n*clear. Just drop a couple on Buenos Aries and wrap it up in a few days. Perhaps there were no n*clear subs in the Southern Atlantic at the time.
She didn't do it because she wasn't a psychopath with one eye on the International Criminal Court... this wasn't Japan 1945. Adam B said:
Vaud said:
What an odd post.
She didn't do it because she wasn't a psychopath with one eye on the International Criminal Court... this wasn't Japan 1945.
utterly bizarre, kill millions of innocent citizens because a military junta started a war as a diversion tactic, er noShe didn't do it because she wasn't a psychopath with one eye on the International Criminal Court... this wasn't Japan 1945.
Nuclear weapons were taken on Op. Corporate - there was as far as I know no discussion or thought of using them, but how to store them in the event that ships carrying them were lost.
Report into the Carriage of Nuclear Weapons by the Task Force.
22nd May
An Argentine Air Force Boeing 707 on a reconnaissance mission avoided being hit by HMS Coventry's Sea Dart as a flash-door failed safe, preventing missile loading on the launcher.
A second 707 approached the Bristol Group later in the morning. Tidespring had reported the aircraft's presence and HMS Cardiff dropped back from the group. When the 707 came within her range, Cardiff fired a Sea Dart salvo. One missile was seen to burst close to the target which broke away.
HMS Broadsword joined Coventry on the missile trap station off Pebble Island, having watched Ardent's fires spread during the night.
07:00HMS Ardent sinks.
HMS Brilliant returned to San Carlos Water.
HMS Yarmouth guarded the entrance to San Carlos Water along with HMS Argonaut.
A strong CAP was maintained, with sixty sorties flying from the carriers. Bad weather on the mainland prevented the Argentine Air Force launching any strikes.
Coast Guard patrol boat Rio Iguazu was strafed by an 801 Squadron CAP in Choiseul Sound. The boat was driven ashore among the kelp.
Rio Igauzu seen beached near Choiseul Sound.
Goose Green was attacked by four GR3s, causing damage to the fuel dump with cluster bombs. Later in the day Coventry and Broadsword parted company.
Coventry returned to San Carlos Water and Broadsword headed to rejoin the Carrier Battle Group. HMS Exeter arrived and took her place on the picket line.
HMS Brillant and Yarmouth transited south. Shortly before midnight a Lynx was flown to investigate a radar contact made in Lively Sound. The vessel was identified as the coaster Monsunnen. The crew ran the ship aground among the kelp and escaped over the rocks.
Field Hospital established at Ajax Bay. Rick Jolly was a massive hero of mine - more to come about the field hospital as it happens.
SD.
Report into the Carriage of Nuclear Weapons by the Task Force.
22nd May
An Argentine Air Force Boeing 707 on a reconnaissance mission avoided being hit by HMS Coventry's Sea Dart as a flash-door failed safe, preventing missile loading on the launcher.
A second 707 approached the Bristol Group later in the morning. Tidespring had reported the aircraft's presence and HMS Cardiff dropped back from the group. When the 707 came within her range, Cardiff fired a Sea Dart salvo. One missile was seen to burst close to the target which broke away.
HMS Broadsword joined Coventry on the missile trap station off Pebble Island, having watched Ardent's fires spread during the night.
07:00HMS Ardent sinks.
HMS Brilliant returned to San Carlos Water.
HMS Yarmouth guarded the entrance to San Carlos Water along with HMS Argonaut.
A strong CAP was maintained, with sixty sorties flying from the carriers. Bad weather on the mainland prevented the Argentine Air Force launching any strikes.
Coast Guard patrol boat Rio Iguazu was strafed by an 801 Squadron CAP in Choiseul Sound. The boat was driven ashore among the kelp.
Rio Igauzu seen beached near Choiseul Sound.
Goose Green was attacked by four GR3s, causing damage to the fuel dump with cluster bombs. Later in the day Coventry and Broadsword parted company.
Coventry returned to San Carlos Water and Broadsword headed to rejoin the Carrier Battle Group. HMS Exeter arrived and took her place on the picket line.
HMS Brillant and Yarmouth transited south. Shortly before midnight a Lynx was flown to investigate a radar contact made in Lively Sound. The vessel was identified as the coaster Monsunnen. The crew ran the ship aground among the kelp and escaped over the rocks.
Field Hospital established at Ajax Bay. Rick Jolly was a massive hero of mine - more to come about the field hospital as it happens.
SD.
Vaud said:
Yipper said:
Surprised Maggie did not go n*clear. Just drop a couple on Buenos Aries and wrap it up in a few days. Perhaps there were no n*clear subs in the Southern Atlantic at the time.
What an odd post.She didn't do it because she wasn't a psychopath with one eye on the International Criminal Court... this wasn't Japan 1945.
Yipper said:
Err, ~80% of British nukes are tiny and a well targeted one on the junta's HQ would take out a few hundred baddies and focus minds pretty quick. It is a common myth that all nukes are big like Hiroshima. They are not.
I think if you want a thread about something that might/could/possibly/maybe have happened then you could start one. It's a genuinely interesting discussion, but I think we should respect this thread for the timeline and war that did happen.Adam B said:
Yipper said:
Err, ~80% of British nukes are tiny and a well targeted one on the junta's HQ would take out a few hundred baddies and focus minds pretty quick. It is a common myth that all nukes are big like Hiroshima. They are not.
Leaving aside the international condemnation and your worrying state of mind, which nuclear weapon can be launched long range into a capital city of 3m people (nearer 10m including suburbs) and only kill a few hundred people in 2 or 3 select government buildings, without horrific blast, thermal radiation, and radioactive fallout?If you wanted to do that then use a conventional warhead
I've just caught up with this thread great reading it, I was 17 at the time and lived well still live in Ludgershall just up the road from Tidworth. With the army depot just behind my house (well until they knocked it all down last year!) and the gates for the rail head serving the medics supply depot just a few hundred yards up the road I remember standing at the bottom of the road watching truck after truck loaded with ammo and supplies heading down to the docks. Some of my mates came home from the medic depot on the Friday night grabbed spare clothes and sleeping bags went back in and over the weekend got several M.A.S.H units I suppose you would call them loaded up and sent down to the docks for the task force. I still remember the shock I felt after the news of the loss of HMS Sheffield like it was yesterday.
Gerber1 said:
Great updates, but two things surprise me.
I'm amazed that strafing a battleship would damage it, I would have just assumed that a ships steel hull would stop a 30mm cannon from penetrating.
Same again about the bomb, I'm amazed they can punch through several decks and remain intact.
I am no jolly jack tar but a I do know that a 30mm round will penetrate 50mm of plate steel at 1.5k, you would need to be driving an icebreaker to have a hull that thick. I'm amazed that strafing a battleship would damage it, I would have just assumed that a ships steel hull would stop a 30mm cannon from penetrating.
Same again about the bomb, I'm amazed they can punch through several decks and remain intact.
The hulls and superstructure on modern warships is not very thick at all and a thirty millimetres cannon shell will have no problems punching a hole through it, and as happened in the Falklands a large bomb especially an incorrectly fused one will go straight through and out the other side! On a side note it's strange to realise that the only operating type 42 destroyer left is Argentinian.
Gerber1 said:
Great updates, but two things surprise me.
I'm amazed that strafing a battleship would damage it, I would have just assumed that a ships steel hull would stop a 30mm cannon from penetrating.
Same again about the bomb, I'm amazed they can punch through several decks and remain intact.
Giving a ship all the armour in the world will make it heavy and un-seaworthy. Plus no amount of armour will save a ship from a morden torpeado, where extra weight will actually make the effect of the torpeado greater.I'm amazed that strafing a battleship would damage it, I would have just assumed that a ships steel hull would stop a 30mm cannon from penetrating.
Same again about the bomb, I'm amazed they can punch through several decks and remain intact.
Its better not to get hit at all, which is why ships have very effective electronic counter measures and decoys; plus following the Falklands the Navy has bought Close in Weapon Systems to shoot down misslies and aircraft as a last resort. If they should get hit, most navies have employed a variation of the "all or nothing" method ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_or_nothing_(armo... ). The cirtical areas of the ship (command, control and weapon systems) are protected, but the rest is left relativity unprotected.
There is a discussion about this here: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/navy-maritime/mo...
Edited by DMN on Tuesday 23 May 09:00
23rd May
HMS Brilliant had joined the Carrier Battle Group during the night, HMS [/i]Antelope[/i] replaced her at San Carlos, bringing with her the first re-supply convoy made up of the Stromness, Norland and Europic Ferry.
The ships had spent the day before, along with Elk and RFA Resource on the edge of the TEZ, transferring hundreds of loads.
Sea Harrier from Hermes spots a wandering Argentine patrol craft in Choiseul Sound, strafes it, and forces it to run aground.
More Harriers find another helicopter facility, destroying three Pumas and an A109.
Two C-130s escorted by six Mirages make a run to West Falkland, and the British prove unable to intercept them.
16:00 Four Skyhawks show up, and track in on Broadsword and Antelope.
A thousand-pounder lands on the starboard quarter. This pilot was a little too low, and hits Antelope's mast, breaking it. As he struggles to recover, he is blown out of the sky by a Sea Wolf from Broadsword.
Another bomb enters low on the port side, under the bridge. Again, it fails to explode, but in its path to the Petty Officer's Mess, it kills a steward, Mark Stevens and injures two sick berth attendants.
Steward Mark R Stevens - HMS Antelope
Eight more Skyhawks arrive, attacking Yarmouth, Antelope and Broadsword. After much shooting and dropping of bombs, nobody hit anything.
18:00. Three Daggers make a crack at it, one is shot down by a Sea Harrier. No other damage.
20:15. While Staff Sergeant Prescott and Warrant Officer Phillips of the Royal Engineers attempt to defuse one of Antelope's bombs, it detonates, killing Prescott and removing one of Phillips' arms. This also starts a fire.
Staff Sergeant James Prescott CGM
Read James Prescott's London Gazette Citation.
With fire on all three decks, fanned by the wind, and the fire main broken, nothing for it but to abandon ship.
Eventually the fire reaches the missile magazine.
SD.
HMS Brilliant had joined the Carrier Battle Group during the night, HMS [/i]Antelope[/i] replaced her at San Carlos, bringing with her the first re-supply convoy made up of the Stromness, Norland and Europic Ferry.
The ships had spent the day before, along with Elk and RFA Resource on the edge of the TEZ, transferring hundreds of loads.
Sea Harrier from Hermes spots a wandering Argentine patrol craft in Choiseul Sound, strafes it, and forces it to run aground.
More Harriers find another helicopter facility, destroying three Pumas and an A109.
Two C-130s escorted by six Mirages make a run to West Falkland, and the British prove unable to intercept them.
16:00 Four Skyhawks show up, and track in on Broadsword and Antelope.
A thousand-pounder lands on the starboard quarter. This pilot was a little too low, and hits Antelope's mast, breaking it. As he struggles to recover, he is blown out of the sky by a Sea Wolf from Broadsword.
Another bomb enters low on the port side, under the bridge. Again, it fails to explode, but in its path to the Petty Officer's Mess, it kills a steward, Mark Stevens and injures two sick berth attendants.
Steward Mark R Stevens - HMS Antelope
Eight more Skyhawks arrive, attacking Yarmouth, Antelope and Broadsword. After much shooting and dropping of bombs, nobody hit anything.
18:00. Three Daggers make a crack at it, one is shot down by a Sea Harrier. No other damage.
20:15. While Staff Sergeant Prescott and Warrant Officer Phillips of the Royal Engineers attempt to defuse one of Antelope's bombs, it detonates, killing Prescott and removing one of Phillips' arms. This also starts a fire.
Staff Sergeant James Prescott CGM
Read James Prescott's London Gazette Citation.
With fire on all three decks, fanned by the wind, and the fire main broken, nothing for it but to abandon ship.
Eventually the fire reaches the missile magazine.
SD.
HMS Antelope. 23rd May
HMS Antelope (F170) was a Type 21 frigate. Her keel was laid down March 23, 1971 by Vosper Thornycroft in Woolston. She was commissioned July 17, 1975. She was the only unit of the class never to be fitted with Exocet launchers.
The San Carlos frigates launched strikes, Argonaut's Lynx attempted a Sea Skua missile attack on the Rio Carcarana but was thwarted by technical problems. Antelope's flight then attacked the same target, firing two Sea Skuas, both of which hit the ship. The unloading of the stores ship was carried out with little interruption. The Stromness had brought equipment intended for assembly as GR3 landing pads which the Royal Engineers wasted no time in putting it together. The bridgehead was consolidated with 5,000 troops dug in.
HMS Antelope flew off her Lynx to investigate the extent of damage inflicted on the Rio Carcarana. As the Lynx returned it was overflown by four Skyhawks and the pilot broadcast a warning of the raid. Consequently, Broadsword, Antelope and Yarmouth were ready and the first pair of Skyhawks were turned back.
The second pair selected Antelope and Broadsword, Premier Teniente L Guadagnini pressed home his attack on the Antelope despite being hit by 20mm fire and scored a direct hit about six feet above the water line on the starboard side of the frigate, below the hangar.
Premier Teniente L Guadagnini
The Skyhawk collided with the main mast, blew up and fell into the water.
HMS Antelope following the A4 attack showing damage to the main mast, entry hole from bomb clearly seen
Another Skyhawk attacked unnoticed from Antelope's port and put another bomb into her port side. Both bombs had failed to exploded, one was in Antelope's Air Conditioning Unit and the second in her Petty Officers Mess. Antelope lost one man, Steward Mark R. Stephens with others injured.
Later in the day the Antelope moved up San Carlos Water near Fearless. The casualty was moved to the field hospital and two Royal Engineers bomb disposal experts came on board. The first attempts to defuse the bomb were unsuccessful. The men decided to use a small defusing charge. As they walked back to examine the results, the bomb exploded and Staff Sargent Prescott was killed instantly, Warrant Officer Phillips left arm was badly injured. Staff Sergeant Prescott was awarded a posthumous Conspicuous Gallantry Medal.
The ship was torn open from water line to funnel, with the blast starting major fires in both engine rooms which spread very quickly. The starboard fire main was fractured, the ship lost all electrical power, and the commanding officer, Commander Nick Tobin, gave the order to abandon ship. Tobin was the last person to leave the ship, and about five minutes after his departure, the missile magazines began exploding. The explosion started a number of fires, as she burned the ship blazed white hot and was abandoned by her 175 crew.
Fires reach the magazines on HMS Antelope
Explosions continued throughout the night, and the following day Antelope was found to be still afloat, but her keel had broken and her superstructure melted into a heap of twisted metal. Antelope broke in half and sank on May 24th 1982.
Read the Board of Inquiry report into the loss of HMS Antelope.
SD.
HMS Antelope (F170) was a Type 21 frigate. Her keel was laid down March 23, 1971 by Vosper Thornycroft in Woolston. She was commissioned July 17, 1975. She was the only unit of the class never to be fitted with Exocet launchers.
The San Carlos frigates launched strikes, Argonaut's Lynx attempted a Sea Skua missile attack on the Rio Carcarana but was thwarted by technical problems. Antelope's flight then attacked the same target, firing two Sea Skuas, both of which hit the ship. The unloading of the stores ship was carried out with little interruption. The Stromness had brought equipment intended for assembly as GR3 landing pads which the Royal Engineers wasted no time in putting it together. The bridgehead was consolidated with 5,000 troops dug in.
HMS Antelope flew off her Lynx to investigate the extent of damage inflicted on the Rio Carcarana. As the Lynx returned it was overflown by four Skyhawks and the pilot broadcast a warning of the raid. Consequently, Broadsword, Antelope and Yarmouth were ready and the first pair of Skyhawks were turned back.
The second pair selected Antelope and Broadsword, Premier Teniente L Guadagnini pressed home his attack on the Antelope despite being hit by 20mm fire and scored a direct hit about six feet above the water line on the starboard side of the frigate, below the hangar.
Premier Teniente L Guadagnini
The Skyhawk collided with the main mast, blew up and fell into the water.
HMS Antelope following the A4 attack showing damage to the main mast, entry hole from bomb clearly seen
Another Skyhawk attacked unnoticed from Antelope's port and put another bomb into her port side. Both bombs had failed to exploded, one was in Antelope's Air Conditioning Unit and the second in her Petty Officers Mess. Antelope lost one man, Steward Mark R. Stephens with others injured.
Later in the day the Antelope moved up San Carlos Water near Fearless. The casualty was moved to the field hospital and two Royal Engineers bomb disposal experts came on board. The first attempts to defuse the bomb were unsuccessful. The men decided to use a small defusing charge. As they walked back to examine the results, the bomb exploded and Staff Sargent Prescott was killed instantly, Warrant Officer Phillips left arm was badly injured. Staff Sergeant Prescott was awarded a posthumous Conspicuous Gallantry Medal.
The ship was torn open from water line to funnel, with the blast starting major fires in both engine rooms which spread very quickly. The starboard fire main was fractured, the ship lost all electrical power, and the commanding officer, Commander Nick Tobin, gave the order to abandon ship. Tobin was the last person to leave the ship, and about five minutes after his departure, the missile magazines began exploding. The explosion started a number of fires, as she burned the ship blazed white hot and was abandoned by her 175 crew.
Fires reach the magazines on HMS Antelope
Explosions continued throughout the night, and the following day Antelope was found to be still afloat, but her keel had broken and her superstructure melted into a heap of twisted metal. Antelope broke in half and sank on May 24th 1982.
Read the Board of Inquiry report into the loss of HMS Antelope.
SD.
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