Half a world, and half a lifetime away.
Discussion
frodo_monkey said:
I'm not a pilot, but I have been a fast-jet WSO in the RAF for the last fifteen-odd years. Personally I'd be delighted to see someone cash in all their energy - while I might have lost the planned shot opportunity, I'll probably have won the fight if I maintain speed/energy. It's an effective last-ditch manoeuvre but leaves you very compromised without the ability to run away outside the attackers WEZ.
Great thread btw, I've not been to the Falklands in the best part of a decade but blatting round the islands and up 'A4 Alley' in an F3 certainly gave you a bit of insight into how the war was fought and the bravery of those involved (on both sides).
What's WSO and WEZ and A4 Alley?Great thread btw, I've not been to the Falklands in the best part of a decade but blatting round the islands and up 'A4 Alley' in an F3 certainly gave you a bit of insight into how the war was fought and the bravery of those involved (on both sides).
Weapond engagement zone at a guess.
Weapons System Op/Officer
A4 Alley is a ridge of mountains that the Argies used to fly along (behind and below at super low level) to avoid detection or lock on from radars. I flew it in a Herc years ago but can't remember most of it or any of the other tactical advantages other than it provided cover for low level fighter bombers on their run in (or just prior to their run in) to certain targets.
Weapons System Op/Officer
A4 Alley is a ridge of mountains that the Argies used to fly along (behind and below at super low level) to avoid detection or lock on from radars. I flew it in a Herc years ago but can't remember most of it or any of the other tactical advantages other than it provided cover for low level fighter bombers on their run in (or just prior to their run in) to certain targets.
Usget said:
shed driver said:
Unfortunately, the two A-4s were so close together that Broadsword's system couldn't quite figure out if it was trying to engage one target or two, decided it wasn't worth what it was being paid to try to figure it out, and switched itself off.
I've heard this story before. I can just imagine the guy who wrote that piece of code hearing the news for the first time and sitting on his sofa thinking ".......oh, f
k it. Yeah, I know exactly why it's done that."Analyst says "The system is mean to attack targets, its in the requirements"
And then the fight started
I bet the weapons officers had a few choice words to say about computer systems.
Keep up the great work OP, thread of the year imho.
Edited by Crafty_ on Sunday 28th May 07:54
although it is good enough to remember what is coming in the next few weeks and it wasn't good 
Kermit power said:
These comments about maintaining energy in atrial combat are interesting.
I can absolutely understand why you wouldn't even contemplate it in a conventional aircraft, but would the extra versatility of a Harrier not at least made it worth thinking about?
As I said, worth it if you have a Mirage/A4 in your shorts and about to take a 'heart of the envelope' shot, but certainly very last ditch. Not only can you not turn as fast, you also lose range on the missile you are firing - think of an air to air missile as a javelin; they go significantly further when you take a run up vice throwing from stood still.I can absolutely understand why you wouldn't even contemplate it in a conventional aircraft, but would the extra versatility of a Harrier not at least made it worth thinking about?
WSO = weapons systems officer, 'Nav' in old money or simply 'backseater'.
WEZ = weapons engagement zone - each missile has a 'bubble' based on the rocket motor, seeker and turn performance; basically how far out it can go from the launch aircraft.
Edited by frodo_monkey on Friday 26th May 23:09
27th May
The Amphibious Phase was now complete, with the Brigade ashore and virtually self-sufficient.
Sir Geraint and Europic Ferry left San Carlos during the night.
B Company, 41 Cdo, found the first Argentine presence finding a Captain de Corbeta (Equivalent to LtCdr, OF-3) of the Argentine Marine Corps.
Three 105mm Light Guns are helicoptered to Camilla Creek House, some eight miles from Goose Green. Ammunition is 320 rounds per gun. Not bad for twelve Sea King lifts.
With the general enemy area under observation by the patrols, 2 Para called in a Harrier GR3 strike against both gun and infantry positions on the hills above Goose Green. A Forward Air Controller with 2 Para would operate through an air liaison officer at Brigade Headquarters. Unfortunately when the weather finally enabled the aircraft to make their sortie, the FAC with the patrols had been called back to the Battalion HQ and was not on hand to liaise with them. Wing Commander Peter Squire, the commander of the Harrier GR3 force, and Squadron Leader Bob Iveson left HMS Hermes to make the attack and two passes were made over the Argentine positions; then Sqn Ldr Iveson decided to make a third.
Sqn Ldr Iveson
His Harrier was hit by two 35 mm shells which knocked out his controls and started a fire in the cockpit. At around 100 ft, he immediately pulled the ejection handle and left the cockpit while the Harrier was doing around 450 knots and his aircraft exploded in mid-air shortly afterwards; he hit the ground after being under the parachute for only ten or fifteen seconds. He suffered spinal compression and wind-blast damage to his eyes but hit the ground sufficiently far from the Argentine positions to make good his escape and was picked up two days later by a Royal Navy helicopter.
Sqn Ldr Iveson's father (Thomas Clifford "Tony" Iveson) was in 617 Squadron as well as participating in the Battle of Britain (616 Sqn)
18:00. First Paras leave Camilla House, heading for their start-point, four miles distant. Argentine artillery lands nearby, but is unaimed.
In a column of troops five miles long, 3 Para and 45 Cdo make 13 miles before calling it quits for the night.
Four A-4s attack San Carlos ground positions.
40mm Bofors guns from HMS Fearless shoot down Lt Velasco, who ejects and is captured.
D Squadron, SAS is helicoptered to Mount Kent.
A second attack dropped more bombs in the afternoon. The air raids began in the late afternoon. Shore facilities in San Carlos bridgehead attacked for the first time, leaving 2 unexploded bombs in the Field Hospital: 2 Argentine aircraft were destroyed. The bombs remained in the Field Hospital until daylight when a RAF bomb disposal team could examine them.
All patients who were fit to be moved were evacuated to HMS Intrepid. Flight Lieutenant A. Swan RAF, slept beside one of the bombs, to reassure the patients and staff who had to remain. These were the only low-level raids to concentrate on the British land forces in San Carlos Water.
The Battle Group was affected by fog, low cloud and rain. This left the carriers unable to operate fighters and only 35 CAP sorties were flown off the carriers during the day.
Two GR3s attacked Port Stanley airfield at noon, using delayed action 1,000 lb bombs with the intention of disrupting supply flights during the night.
HMS Penelope and Avenger were detached to form an anti-surface screen.
The Irishman had the Atlantic Conveyor in tow by mid-evening. Atlantic Conveyor's ordnance had exploded, blowing her bows off, permitting flooding and giving her a 15 degree list to starboard.
Atlantic Conveyor as seen from the tug [Irishman[/i]
The tow parted after half an hour, Able Seamen D. P. Betts and G. Bales went across to reconnect a line (as a consequence, the two men were awarded the British Empire Medal). However, as the fog descended, the Irishman lost sight of the Atlantic Conveyor and had no warning when the ship suddenly plunged late that night. The Irishman made a sweep of the area but found only three large containers floating on the surface. The Captain reported the loss of the ship and its position. The ship was the first British merchant vessel lost at sea to enemy fire since World War II.
Elk, laden with stores made a replenishment run into San Carlos. She was escorted by HMS Ambuscade and RFA Tidepool with HMS Plymouth joining them for the last stage.
HMS Glamorgan, Avenger, Alacrity, Arrow and Yarmouth detached from the Battle Group as darkness fell to bombard inland targets.
263 survivors from HMS Sheffield arrived home in UK.
SD.
The Amphibious Phase was now complete, with the Brigade ashore and virtually self-sufficient.
Sir Geraint and Europic Ferry left San Carlos during the night.
B Company, 41 Cdo, found the first Argentine presence finding a Captain de Corbeta (Equivalent to LtCdr, OF-3) of the Argentine Marine Corps.
Three 105mm Light Guns are helicoptered to Camilla Creek House, some eight miles from Goose Green. Ammunition is 320 rounds per gun. Not bad for twelve Sea King lifts.
With the general enemy area under observation by the patrols, 2 Para called in a Harrier GR3 strike against both gun and infantry positions on the hills above Goose Green. A Forward Air Controller with 2 Para would operate through an air liaison officer at Brigade Headquarters. Unfortunately when the weather finally enabled the aircraft to make their sortie, the FAC with the patrols had been called back to the Battalion HQ and was not on hand to liaise with them. Wing Commander Peter Squire, the commander of the Harrier GR3 force, and Squadron Leader Bob Iveson left HMS Hermes to make the attack and two passes were made over the Argentine positions; then Sqn Ldr Iveson decided to make a third.
Sqn Ldr Iveson
His Harrier was hit by two 35 mm shells which knocked out his controls and started a fire in the cockpit. At around 100 ft, he immediately pulled the ejection handle and left the cockpit while the Harrier was doing around 450 knots and his aircraft exploded in mid-air shortly afterwards; he hit the ground after being under the parachute for only ten or fifteen seconds. He suffered spinal compression and wind-blast damage to his eyes but hit the ground sufficiently far from the Argentine positions to make good his escape and was picked up two days later by a Royal Navy helicopter.
Sqn Ldr Iveson's father (Thomas Clifford "Tony" Iveson) was in 617 Squadron as well as participating in the Battle of Britain (616 Sqn)
18:00. First Paras leave Camilla House, heading for their start-point, four miles distant. Argentine artillery lands nearby, but is unaimed.
In a column of troops five miles long, 3 Para and 45 Cdo make 13 miles before calling it quits for the night.
Four A-4s attack San Carlos ground positions.
40mm Bofors guns from HMS Fearless shoot down Lt Velasco, who ejects and is captured.
D Squadron, SAS is helicoptered to Mount Kent.
A second attack dropped more bombs in the afternoon. The air raids began in the late afternoon. Shore facilities in San Carlos bridgehead attacked for the first time, leaving 2 unexploded bombs in the Field Hospital: 2 Argentine aircraft were destroyed. The bombs remained in the Field Hospital until daylight when a RAF bomb disposal team could examine them.
All patients who were fit to be moved were evacuated to HMS Intrepid. Flight Lieutenant A. Swan RAF, slept beside one of the bombs, to reassure the patients and staff who had to remain. These were the only low-level raids to concentrate on the British land forces in San Carlos Water.
The Battle Group was affected by fog, low cloud and rain. This left the carriers unable to operate fighters and only 35 CAP sorties were flown off the carriers during the day.
Two GR3s attacked Port Stanley airfield at noon, using delayed action 1,000 lb bombs with the intention of disrupting supply flights during the night.
HMS Penelope and Avenger were detached to form an anti-surface screen.
The Irishman had the Atlantic Conveyor in tow by mid-evening. Atlantic Conveyor's ordnance had exploded, blowing her bows off, permitting flooding and giving her a 15 degree list to starboard.
Atlantic Conveyor as seen from the tug [Irishman[/i]
The tow parted after half an hour, Able Seamen D. P. Betts and G. Bales went across to reconnect a line (as a consequence, the two men were awarded the British Empire Medal). However, as the fog descended, the Irishman lost sight of the Atlantic Conveyor and had no warning when the ship suddenly plunged late that night. The Irishman made a sweep of the area but found only three large containers floating on the surface. The Captain reported the loss of the ship and its position. The ship was the first British merchant vessel lost at sea to enemy fire since World War II.
Elk, laden with stores made a replenishment run into San Carlos. She was escorted by HMS Ambuscade and RFA Tidepool with HMS Plymouth joining them for the last stage.
HMS Glamorgan, Avenger, Alacrity, Arrow and Yarmouth detached from the Battle Group as darkness fell to bombard inland targets.
263 survivors from HMS Sheffield arrived home in UK.
SD.
Usget said:
shed driver said:
Unfortunately, the two A-4s were so close together that Broadsword's system couldn't quite figure out if it was trying to engage one target or two, decided it wasn't worth what it was being paid to try to figure it out, and switched itself off.
I've heard this story before. I can just imagine the guy who wrote that piece of code hearing the news for the first time and sitting on his sofa thinking ".......oh, fk it. Yeah, I know exactly why it's done that."shed driver said:
27th May
Sqn Ldr Iveson's father (Thomas Clifford "Tony" Iveson) was in 617 Squadron as well as participating in the Battle of Britain (616 Sqn)
Impressive family. The father flying Spitfires in the bob then a Lancaster with 617 on the Tirpitz raid. The son flying Harriers in the Falklands then commanding 617 sqn in GW1.Sqn Ldr Iveson's father (Thomas Clifford "Tony" Iveson) was in 617 Squadron as well as participating in the Battle of Britain (616 Sqn)
Adam B said:
shed driver said:
2 Para sets out a-walking the 13 miles or so to Goose Green. This is duly reported by the BBC. On the World Service - in Argentina. Combined with other instances, such as the report broadcast on 23rd May that Argentine bombs were not exploding on impact, the British military have ever since been somewhat distrustful of the organisation.
Can someone please explain this new level of fkwittery? Surely there are certain protocols around BBC correspondents and what they do and don't report, or when they report it so as not to adversely impact our armed forces during a conflict.I thought the first casualty of war was truth not common sense!
Ironically the Argentines believed it was indeed a bluff. The officer commanding the defence of Goose Green later said: "I did not take it too seriously; I thought it was more a psychological action because it would be crazy for them to announce an actual move. I made no changes because of that broadcast".
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=a_JYBQAAQBAJ&a...
Great thread SD.
I've read quite a few books on the Falklands, your level of detail and knowledge here is both superb and interesting.
I joined the RN in 1992 and been to the FI a number of times over the years. Latterly on the Endurance during a long deployment to the Antarctic in 2007 which was excellent. Sadly the Endurance suffered a catastrophic flood on 16th December 2008 in the Strait of Magellan and when eventually recovered back to the UK was never repaired, deemed too costly. The ship was eventually scrapped last year after rotting away in Portsmouth dockyard for 7 years after the indecent.
Also served on Invincible, Glasgow and short stints on RFA's Percivale and Bedivere, all of which took part in the conflict and all of which have been scrapped. A sad sate of affairs.
Anyway, thanks for posting. I doff my cap to you Sir.
I've read quite a few books on the Falklands, your level of detail and knowledge here is both superb and interesting.
I joined the RN in 1992 and been to the FI a number of times over the years. Latterly on the Endurance during a long deployment to the Antarctic in 2007 which was excellent. Sadly the Endurance suffered a catastrophic flood on 16th December 2008 in the Strait of Magellan and when eventually recovered back to the UK was never repaired, deemed too costly. The ship was eventually scrapped last year after rotting away in Portsmouth dockyard for 7 years after the indecent.
Also served on Invincible, Glasgow and short stints on RFA's Percivale and Bedivere, all of which took part in the conflict and all of which have been scrapped. A sad sate of affairs.
Anyway, thanks for posting. I doff my cap to you Sir.
98elise said:
Usget said:
shed driver said:
Unfortunately, the two A-4s were so close together that Broadsword's system couldn't quite figure out if it was trying to engage one target or two, decided it wasn't worth what it was being paid to try to figure it out, and switched itself off.
I've heard this story before. I can just imagine the guy who wrote that piece of code hearing the news for the first time and sitting on his sofa thinking ".......oh, fk it. Yeah, I know exactly why it's done that."Muffster said:
I joined the RN in 1992 and been to the FI a number of times over the years. Latterly on the Endurance during a long deployment to the Antarctic in 2007 which was excellent. Sadly the Endurance suffered a catastrophic flood on 16th December 2008 in the Strait of Magellan and when eventually recovered back to the UK was never repaired, deemed too costly. The ship was eventually scrapped last year after rotting away in Portsmouth dockyard for 7 years after the indecent.
Thanks Muffster.I'm sure you have read the BOI report into the incident on Endurance - for those who are interested it can be found here.
https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ane9lOTY5nFrrmyR8iWrU_d-EP2L
SD.
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