Half a world, and half a lifetime away.
Discussion
DMN said:
There was I think a BBC series about the course. Its very demanding and includes escape and evasion and resistence to interregation training (though not on the same level as the SAS/SBS).
This is what you were looking for http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00k8rcw
5th June
The first CAP of the day was flown off HMS Hermes before dawn and landed at the Port San Carlos strip (which had been christened HMS Sheathbill).
The weather improved, allowing full use to be made of the helicopters in moving equipment and supplies.
42 Commando RM occupy Mount Challenger.
Gazelle helicopter 656 Sqn AAC shot down in 'friendly fire' incident. HMS Cardiff fired a SeaDart at an unidentified aircraft.
Read the belated Board of Inquiry Report.
I've not got time during today to update, will be after 21:00 before I get chance.
SD.
The first CAP of the day was flown off HMS Hermes before dawn and landed at the Port San Carlos strip (which had been christened HMS Sheathbill).
The weather improved, allowing full use to be made of the helicopters in moving equipment and supplies.
42 Commando RM occupy Mount Challenger.
Gazelle helicopter 656 Sqn AAC shot down in 'friendly fire' incident. HMS Cardiff fired a SeaDart at an unidentified aircraft.
Read the belated Board of Inquiry Report.
I've not got time during today to update, will be after 21:00 before I get chance.
SD.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I'm not one generally for stuff like that. Imagine, if you will, arriving on your first flying Sqn to be told by your Flt Cdr that "We don't want people like you on this Sqn." (ie 'Lumpy Jumper types). That's why I don't accept sexist crap very well and why I can be described as 'prickly'.
To which I do hope you replied "I didn't want a misogynistic dinosaur leading my squadron either Sir but I do hope we will be able to make the best of a bad deal."Rude-boy said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I'm not one generally for stuff like that. Imagine, if you will, arriving on your first flying Sqn to be told by your Flt Cdr that "We don't want people like you on this Sqn." (ie 'Lumpy Jumper types). That's why I don't accept sexist crap very well and why I can be described as 'prickly'.
To which I do hope you replied "I didn't want a misogynistic dinosaur leading my squadron either Sir but I do hope we will be able to make the best of a bad deal."
Yeah that is exactly what I would have done, then gone straight to get my Brasso for the Main gate/pylon/every empty case in the armoury.louiechevy said:
There's a documentary about to start on BBC one called brothers in arms about veterans returning to that Falklands thirty five years on.
Enjoyed that, very moving. Thanks for the heads up. Also, Cerys Matthews confirmed Ginetta G15 Girl's definition of tabbing from a few pages back!DoctorX said:
Enjoyed that, very moving. Thanks for the heads up. Also, Cerys Matthews confirmed Ginetta G15 Girl's definition of tabbing from a few pages back!
Yeah I caught the tabbing part as well! I was or would have been about to turn 17 when bluff cove happened and it still has the capacity to upset me now. At the time my next door neighbour was a wonderful man who was Welsh and who had served in 2 para in Burma in the second world war, he was an armourer and taught me to shoot rule one was never point a firearm at someone followed by the whispered words of wisdom unless you actually intend to shot them. louiechevy said:
DoctorX said:
Enjoyed that, very moving. Thanks for the heads up. Also, Cerys Matthews confirmed Ginetta G15 Girl's definition of tabbing from a few pages back!
Yeah I caught the tabbing part as well! I was or would have been about to turn 17 when bluff cove happened and it still has the capacity to upset me now. At the time my next door neighbour was a wonderful man who was Welsh and who had served in 2 para in Burma in the second world war, he was an armourer and taught me to shoot rule one was never point a firearm at someone followed by the whispered words of wisdom unless you actually intend to shot them. Ayahuasca said:
I was never convinced that 'tabbing' is 'tactical advance to battle'. Any proof of that? It is however a fiendishly difficult way of marching involving too-long strides (felt like almost goose-stepping) at a ludicrous pace with a strange hip wiggle, with your arms moving side to side across your body, rather than the fore-and-aft of normal marching. I was always relieved when the command came to start running again as that was easier. The idea is to average 10.5 - 12 minutes per mile, which is jogging pace, but whilst walking half the time.
The average man can Tab for a far further distance than he can jog, much much further.To run you have to lift you and your kit (20 Stone roughly on the Falklands) clean off the ground every step. Tabbing uses the locked knee and rotation of the hip joint to do the same job but without the lift effort.
And I was taught that Tab was Tac advance to battle at ITC Catterick.
The Vambo said:
Ayahuasca said:
I was never convinced that 'tabbing' is 'tactical advance to battle'. Any proof of that? It is however a fiendishly difficult way of marching involving too-long strides (felt like almost goose-stepping) at a ludicrous pace with a strange hip wiggle, with your arms moving side to side across your body, rather than the fore-and-aft of normal marching. I was always relieved when the command came to start running again as that was easier. The idea is to average 10.5 - 12 minutes per mile, which is jogging pace, but whilst walking half the time.
The average man can Tab for a far further distance than he can jog, much much further.To run you have to lift you and your kit (20 Stone roughly on the Falklands) clean off the ground every step. Tabbing uses the locked knee and rotation of the hip joint to do the same job but without the lift effort.
And I was taught that Tab was Tac advance to battle at ITC Catterick.
DoctorX said:
louiechevy said:
There's a documentary about to start on BBC one called brothers in arms about veterans returning to that Falklands thirty five years on.
Enjoyed that, very moving. Thanks for the heads up. Also, Cerys Matthews confirmed Ginetta G15 Girl's definition of tabbing from a few pages back!5th June - Supplemental.
On the night of 5 June, the Type 42 destroyer HMS Cardiff took up station on the Bluff Cove Gunline to the east of the islands. Tasked with a dual mission, Cardiff was to provide fire support to the marines of 3 Commando Brigade, and to interdict any Argentine aircraft attempting to fly into Stanley. The destroyer had performed a similar role four nights previously, when she unsuccessfully attempted to shoot down a resupply aircraft as it landed, and again as it took off.
Meanwhile, two pilots, the OC of 205 Signal Squadron, and one of his technicians, Staff Sergeant John Baker took off in XX377 to make a routine delivery of personnel and equipment to a radio rebroadcast station on East Falkland. Griffin was an experienced pilot; the flight to the rebroadcast station was expected to take ten minutes.
At 02:00 local time, Cardiff's operations room detected XX377 on her surface plot radar at a range of 25 nautical miles. The helicopter's identification friend or foe (IFF) system was turned off, so receiving no friendly transmissions and with the contact apparently heading towards Stanley, the operations room crew assumed it to be hostile.
After calculating its speed they believed they were tracking an Argentine fixed-wing aircraft - either a Hercules conducting a resupply mission, or a FMA IA 58 Pucará ground-attack aircraft sent to retaliate for Cardif's shelling. Cardiff fired two of her Sea Dart missiles. 5th Infantry Brigade lost radio contact with the Gazelle, and simultaneously the exploding missile warheads were seen and heard by the rebroadcast station's personnel atop Pleasant Peak. Cardiff's crew were able to see the fireball, but only with the aid of night vision goggles.
The helicopter's loss caused the British to suspect that Argentine forces were still operating in the area, so patrols were mounted by Gurkha soldiers When the Gurkhas came across the personnel manning the Pleasant Peak station there was potential for another friendly fire incident to occur. At first light a proper search was carried out, and the Gazelle's wreckage was found along with the dead aircrew and passengers; 5th Infantry Brigade's first casualties of the war. Immediately there were suspicions that Cardiff had been responsible for the shootdown, and later that evening Rear Admiral "Sandy" Woodward declared a "Weapons Tight" order, forbidding the engagement of any aircraft not positively identified as hostile, for all contacts detected flying over East Falkland at less than 200 knots and under 2000 feet.
The crew's bodies were initially examined by senior medical officer, Surgeon-Captain Richard "Rick" Jolly of the Royal Navy. The helicopter's wreckage was inspected on-site, but the British were unable to determine if it had been destroyed by Cardiff's missiles or by Argentine fire. This uncertainty prompted the decision not to hold a board of inquiry, and XX377 was declared "lost in action". It was surmised that, if the relatives of the deceased were told that the Gazelle might have been lost to friendly fire, it would add to their grief.
After the war, missile fragments found in the wreckage were taken to the British government's aviation research facility at RAE Farnborough for analysis. The scientific tests concluded that the fragments were not from a British Sea Dart missile, despite a Sea Dart casing later being found "several hundred yards" away from the wreckage.
In December 1982 an inquest was held by a Southampton coroner into the death of Lance Corporal Cockton after his body was repatriated to the UK. Based on RAE Farnborough's test results, the Army Air Corps submitted evidence stating that the analysis of the warhead fragments found in the wreckage indicated that the helicopter had been destroyed by a type of anti-aircraft missile "known to have been in the possession of the enemy". The test results were reviewed in November 1985 and determined that there could be "no definitive conclusion as to the exact source of the missile fragments recovered from the crash site".
In June 1986, John Stanley, the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, announced in his written answers to the House of Commons: "the [Southampton] coroner has been informed accordingly."
In October 1986, partly due to pressure from Cockton's mother and the politician Tam Dalyell, an official board of inquiry was finally opened. The board took a month to reach the conclusion that XX377 was shot down by Cardiff. Historian Hugh Bicheno remarks: "It took [the] MoD four years and two investigations, the first either incompetent or a deliberate cover-up, even to admit the Gazelle blue-on-blue."
The board's findings were made public by a Freedom of Information Act request in July 2008, although Paragraph 13 of the report was redacted under Section 26 of the act as it "contains operational details of the Royal Navy's activities, which, even with the passage of time since the Falklands campaign, would be of use to potential enemies."
The board of inquiry found that standard operating procedure dictated that the commanders of 5th Infantry Brigade were not required to declare the helicopter's mission to any other authority, as the flight was to occur in brigade airspace on a brigade task. Gazelle XX377 was equipped with an IFF transmitter, but this was turned off. In the opinion of the board, "had IFF been in use there is little doubt that Cardiff would not have engaged the aircraft that night."
At the time, less than half of the land force's helicopters were fitted with IFF transmitters, and those that were had been ordered not to use them because they inhibited the tracking systems of the British ground-based Rapier anti-aircraft missile batteries. A misconception about the Royal Navy's ability to engage air targets over land led to the navy not being informed that the army's helicopters were not using IFF. The board of inquiry concluded that it was this failure to communicate, together with the navy's assumption that all helicopters would be operating IFF, which "had a cumulative effect [and] was a major cause of [the] accident." However, the board recommended that "neither negligence nor blame should be attributed to any individual".
6th June
Scots Guards land at Fitzroy in early morning.
Versailles summit supports British position on the conflict.
Welsh Guards depart San Carlos at night on board Fearless heading for Fitzroy.
SD.
On the night of 5 June, the Type 42 destroyer HMS Cardiff took up station on the Bluff Cove Gunline to the east of the islands. Tasked with a dual mission, Cardiff was to provide fire support to the marines of 3 Commando Brigade, and to interdict any Argentine aircraft attempting to fly into Stanley. The destroyer had performed a similar role four nights previously, when she unsuccessfully attempted to shoot down a resupply aircraft as it landed, and again as it took off.
Meanwhile, two pilots, the OC of 205 Signal Squadron, and one of his technicians, Staff Sergeant John Baker took off in XX377 to make a routine delivery of personnel and equipment to a radio rebroadcast station on East Falkland. Griffin was an experienced pilot; the flight to the rebroadcast station was expected to take ten minutes.
At 02:00 local time, Cardiff's operations room detected XX377 on her surface plot radar at a range of 25 nautical miles. The helicopter's identification friend or foe (IFF) system was turned off, so receiving no friendly transmissions and with the contact apparently heading towards Stanley, the operations room crew assumed it to be hostile.
After calculating its speed they believed they were tracking an Argentine fixed-wing aircraft - either a Hercules conducting a resupply mission, or a FMA IA 58 Pucará ground-attack aircraft sent to retaliate for Cardif's shelling. Cardiff fired two of her Sea Dart missiles. 5th Infantry Brigade lost radio contact with the Gazelle, and simultaneously the exploding missile warheads were seen and heard by the rebroadcast station's personnel atop Pleasant Peak. Cardiff's crew were able to see the fireball, but only with the aid of night vision goggles.
The helicopter's loss caused the British to suspect that Argentine forces were still operating in the area, so patrols were mounted by Gurkha soldiers When the Gurkhas came across the personnel manning the Pleasant Peak station there was potential for another friendly fire incident to occur. At first light a proper search was carried out, and the Gazelle's wreckage was found along with the dead aircrew and passengers; 5th Infantry Brigade's first casualties of the war. Immediately there were suspicions that Cardiff had been responsible for the shootdown, and later that evening Rear Admiral "Sandy" Woodward declared a "Weapons Tight" order, forbidding the engagement of any aircraft not positively identified as hostile, for all contacts detected flying over East Falkland at less than 200 knots and under 2000 feet.
The crew's bodies were initially examined by senior medical officer, Surgeon-Captain Richard "Rick" Jolly of the Royal Navy. The helicopter's wreckage was inspected on-site, but the British were unable to determine if it had been destroyed by Cardiff's missiles or by Argentine fire. This uncertainty prompted the decision not to hold a board of inquiry, and XX377 was declared "lost in action". It was surmised that, if the relatives of the deceased were told that the Gazelle might have been lost to friendly fire, it would add to their grief.
After the war, missile fragments found in the wreckage were taken to the British government's aviation research facility at RAE Farnborough for analysis. The scientific tests concluded that the fragments were not from a British Sea Dart missile, despite a Sea Dart casing later being found "several hundred yards" away from the wreckage.
In December 1982 an inquest was held by a Southampton coroner into the death of Lance Corporal Cockton after his body was repatriated to the UK. Based on RAE Farnborough's test results, the Army Air Corps submitted evidence stating that the analysis of the warhead fragments found in the wreckage indicated that the helicopter had been destroyed by a type of anti-aircraft missile "known to have been in the possession of the enemy". The test results were reviewed in November 1985 and determined that there could be "no definitive conclusion as to the exact source of the missile fragments recovered from the crash site".
In June 1986, John Stanley, the Minister of State for the Armed Forces, announced in his written answers to the House of Commons: "the [Southampton] coroner has been informed accordingly."
In October 1986, partly due to pressure from Cockton's mother and the politician Tam Dalyell, an official board of inquiry was finally opened. The board took a month to reach the conclusion that XX377 was shot down by Cardiff. Historian Hugh Bicheno remarks: "It took [the] MoD four years and two investigations, the first either incompetent or a deliberate cover-up, even to admit the Gazelle blue-on-blue."
The board's findings were made public by a Freedom of Information Act request in July 2008, although Paragraph 13 of the report was redacted under Section 26 of the act as it "contains operational details of the Royal Navy's activities, which, even with the passage of time since the Falklands campaign, would be of use to potential enemies."
The board of inquiry found that standard operating procedure dictated that the commanders of 5th Infantry Brigade were not required to declare the helicopter's mission to any other authority, as the flight was to occur in brigade airspace on a brigade task. Gazelle XX377 was equipped with an IFF transmitter, but this was turned off. In the opinion of the board, "had IFF been in use there is little doubt that Cardiff would not have engaged the aircraft that night."
At the time, less than half of the land force's helicopters were fitted with IFF transmitters, and those that were had been ordered not to use them because they inhibited the tracking systems of the British ground-based Rapier anti-aircraft missile batteries. A misconception about the Royal Navy's ability to engage air targets over land led to the navy not being informed that the army's helicopters were not using IFF. The board of inquiry concluded that it was this failure to communicate, together with the navy's assumption that all helicopters would be operating IFF, which "had a cumulative effect [and] was a major cause of [the] accident." However, the board recommended that "neither negligence nor blame should be attributed to any individual".
6th June
Scots Guards land at Fitzroy in early morning.
Versailles summit supports British position on the conflict.
Welsh Guards depart San Carlos at night on board Fearless heading for Fitzroy.
SD.
Edited by shed driver on Tuesday 6th June 12:29
Ayahuasca said:
The Vambo said:
Ayahuasca said:
I was never convinced that 'tabbing' is 'tactical advance to battle'. Any proof of that? It is however a fiendishly difficult way of marching involving too-long strides (felt like almost goose-stepping) at a ludicrous pace with a strange hip wiggle, with your arms moving side to side across your body, rather than the fore-and-aft of normal marching. I was always relieved when the command came to start running again as that was easier. The idea is to average 10.5 - 12 minutes per mile, which is jogging pace, but whilst walking half the time.
The average man can Tab for a far further distance than he can jog, much much further.To run you have to lift you and your kit (20 Stone roughly on the Falklands) clean off the ground every step. Tabbing uses the locked knee and rotation of the hip joint to do the same job but without the lift effort.
And I was taught that Tab was Tac advance to battle at ITC Catterick.
7th June
President Reagan begins visit to Great Britain.
Pope John Paul II arrives in Argentina and declares all wars as "unjust".
UN Secretary General announces peace plan.
Fearless and her frigates reached her rendezvous before midnight. The Bluff Cove LCUs had not sailed, Fearless was unaware of this and waited until the last possible moment before sailing for San Carlos.
The day dawned bright and clear, allowing the transport helicopters to begin flying at dawn and continue until nightfall.
Hermes withdrew in from the TEZ early in the day to allow her steam turbine machinery to be overhauled.
Argentine photo-reconnaissance Learjet shot down over San Carlos by HMS Exeter.
MV Norland returned to the area to collect the balance of prisoners held in the Ajax Bay compounds.
Sir Galahad embarked troops for Fitzroy Cove.
Alacrity departed for home as her 4.5in gun barrel had exceeded its life. It had fired over 500 shells, the maximum rate of fire was 25 rounds per minute.
Junella, Cordella, Pict and Engadine joined the Battle Group and then joined the RFA Olna, Atlantic Causeway and HMS Ambuscade to sail to the transport area. (The Trawler Pict was a sister ship to FV Gaul which disappeared off Norway in 1974. Rumours abounded that it had been involved in espionage.
Cardiff and Yarmouth headed for the southern gunline.
HMS Arrow supported operations in the north-east corner of East Falkland.
Invincible and Brilliant patrolled to the south of Falkland Sound.
HMS Andromeda waited for an RAF Hercules on the north-eastern edge of the TEZ.
SD.
President Reagan begins visit to Great Britain.
Pope John Paul II arrives in Argentina and declares all wars as "unjust".
UN Secretary General announces peace plan.
Fearless and her frigates reached her rendezvous before midnight. The Bluff Cove LCUs had not sailed, Fearless was unaware of this and waited until the last possible moment before sailing for San Carlos.
The day dawned bright and clear, allowing the transport helicopters to begin flying at dawn and continue until nightfall.
Hermes withdrew in from the TEZ early in the day to allow her steam turbine machinery to be overhauled.
Argentine photo-reconnaissance Learjet shot down over San Carlos by HMS Exeter.
MV Norland returned to the area to collect the balance of prisoners held in the Ajax Bay compounds.
Sir Galahad embarked troops for Fitzroy Cove.
Alacrity departed for home as her 4.5in gun barrel had exceeded its life. It had fired over 500 shells, the maximum rate of fire was 25 rounds per minute.
Junella, Cordella, Pict and Engadine joined the Battle Group and then joined the RFA Olna, Atlantic Causeway and HMS Ambuscade to sail to the transport area. (The Trawler Pict was a sister ship to FV Gaul which disappeared off Norway in 1974. Rumours abounded that it had been involved in espionage.
Cardiff and Yarmouth headed for the southern gunline.
HMS Arrow supported operations in the north-east corner of East Falkland.
Invincible and Brilliant patrolled to the south of Falkland Sound.
HMS Andromeda waited for an RAF Hercules on the north-eastern edge of the TEZ.
SD.
DMN said:
Ayahuasca said:
The Vambo said:
Ayahuasca said:
I was never convinced that 'tabbing' is 'tactical advance to battle'. Any proof of that? It is however a fiendishly difficult way of marching involving too-long strides (felt like almost goose-stepping) at a ludicrous pace with a strange hip wiggle, with your arms moving side to side across your body, rather than the fore-and-aft of normal marching. I was always relieved when the command came to start running again as that was easier. The idea is to average 10.5 - 12 minutes per mile, which is jogging pace, but whilst walking half the time.
The average man can Tab for a far further distance than he can jog, much much further.To run you have to lift you and your kit (20 Stone roughly on the Falklands) clean off the ground every step. Tabbing uses the locked knee and rotation of the hip joint to do the same job but without the lift effort.
And I was taught that Tab was Tac advance to battle at ITC Catterick.
Hugo a Gogo said:
DMN said:
Ayahuasca said:
The Vambo said:
Ayahuasca said:
I was never convinced that 'tabbing' is 'tactical advance to battle'. Any proof of that? It is however a fiendishly difficult way of marching involving too-long strides (felt like almost goose-stepping) at a ludicrous pace with a strange hip wiggle, with your arms moving side to side across your body, rather than the fore-and-aft of normal marching. I was always relieved when the command came to start running again as that was easier. The idea is to average 10.5 - 12 minutes per mile, which is jogging pace, but whilst walking half the time.
The average man can Tab for a far further distance than he can jog, much much further.To run you have to lift you and your kit (20 Stone roughly on the Falklands) clean off the ground every step. Tabbing uses the locked knee and rotation of the hip joint to do the same job but without the lift effort.
And I was taught that Tab was Tac advance to battle at ITC Catterick.
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