Half a world, and half a lifetime away.
Discussion
Shed Driver - thanks for putting this together, remember it well (or, at least I think I do - I was 10 at the time) as my uncle was in the Navy, based at Portsmouth. As a father of a young family, the routine was, IIRC, 2 years on ship, one year on shore. He came off his ship in Feb 1982, and it sailed with the Task Force in April. That ship was HMS Sheffield, and where the Exocet struck the Sheffield was pretty damn close to where he would have been sat.
By chance, I went to uni at Sheffield, and I remember my uncle telling me of going there with the crew, and of receiving the city's coat of arms at a ceremony. I think it was part of the process he needed, even 10 years later.
By chance, I went to uni at Sheffield, and I remember my uncle telling me of going there with the crew, and of receiving the city's coat of arms at a ceremony. I think it was part of the process he needed, even 10 years later.
shed driver said:
Saw that on catch up today - there's a thread about HMS Ocean elsewhere I believe. Atlantic Conveyor was a major strategic loss - it almost derailed the entire campaign as the vast majority of the heavy lift helos were onboard. I will be covering the loss in greater detail soon.
SD.
A friend of my father was the First Officer on Atlantic Conveyor. The shortly before it was due to head south he was watching the rugby at Cardiff Arms Park with my father. He tripped on the terrace and broke his ankle. Very lucky not to have to go through that.SD.
shed driver said:
Saw that on catch up today - there's a thread about HMS Ocean elsewhere I believe. Atlantic Conveyor was a major strategic loss - it almost derailed the entire campaign as the vast majority of the heavy lift helos were onboard. I will be covering the loss in greater detail soon.
SD.
25th May. Argentina's national day. We lost Coventry too.SD.
Conveyor had lots of kit in her. Chinooks went down and only "Bravo November" survived as it was on an air test at the time. I have read that she wasn't a welcome passenger on Hermes afterwards. A big helo that couldn't be stowed below in the hangar without the rotors being removed.
I look forward to your updates. Thanks for starting this thread.
13th April
The Rothesay Class Frigate HMS Falmouth (F113) is taken off the sales list to be re commissioned.
Haig meets with Thatcher yet again, asking if there was any form of flexibility she could offer. Her concessions were a shift in the demand from the status quo ante to a 'recognisably British administration' and perhaps a downplaying of the weight of the Islanders' wishes.
In the meantime, the War Cabinet are getting a little tired of Haig's lumbering progress. They expected American support. Hints were dropped that Her Majesty would be less than enamoured to receive an 'even-handed Reagan' in the scheduled state visit that June. Pym did even better: At a press conference, he announced that he did not expect America to remain neutral in a dispute between a democracy and a dictatorship.
Haig flies back to Washington to brief Reagan before continuing his trip to Buenos Aries.
Updates may be a little sporadic over the next few days - hopefully there won't be too much delay.
SD.
The Rothesay Class Frigate HMS Falmouth (F113) is taken off the sales list to be re commissioned.
Haig meets with Thatcher yet again, asking if there was any form of flexibility she could offer. Her concessions were a shift in the demand from the status quo ante to a 'recognisably British administration' and perhaps a downplaying of the weight of the Islanders' wishes.
In the meantime, the War Cabinet are getting a little tired of Haig's lumbering progress. They expected American support. Hints were dropped that Her Majesty would be less than enamoured to receive an 'even-handed Reagan' in the scheduled state visit that June. Pym did even better: At a press conference, he announced that he did not expect America to remain neutral in a dispute between a democracy and a dictatorship.
Haig flies back to Washington to brief Reagan before continuing his trip to Buenos Aries.
Updates may be a little sporadic over the next few days - hopefully there won't be too much delay.
SD.
wildcat45 said:
25th May. Argentina's national day. We lost Coventry too.
Conveyor had lots of kit in her. Chinooks went down and only "Bravo November" survived as it was on an air test at the time. I have read that she wasn't a welcome passenger on Hermes afterwards. A big helo that couldn't be stowed below in the hangar without the rotors being removed.
I look forward to your updates. Thanks for starting this thread.
Conveyor had lots of kit in her. Chinooks went down and only "Bravo November" survived as it was on an air test at the time. I have read that she wasn't a welcome passenger on Hermes afterwards. A big helo that couldn't be stowed below in the hangar without the rotors being removed.
I look forward to your updates. Thanks for starting this thread.
There was another 'unwrapped' Chinook on the rear heli-deck of the Atlantic Conveyor. Sadly it wasn't able to get off and was reduced to very little after the fire. A huge chunk of army kit that was very important to the mission was lost too. Including ALL of the Royal Engineers' Harrier FOB kit, and most of the army's entire stock of aluminium trackway matting. Clearly it didn't prevent a successful conclusion to the campaign, but a fully operational Harrier FOB and 4 x Chinook heavy-lift helicopters would have significantly changed the narrative of the war in our favour I think.
Sorry if I'm jumping the gun with this post too. Atlantic Conveyor wasn't really part of the task force until 14th April when the planning started to get her converted and fit to sail. Until that point she had been laid up, I think.
Adam B said:
FOB ?
Sorry! Forward Operating Base. Basically a bunch of tin taxiways and parking pads, and aircraft handling areas with facilities for refueling and rearming the jets. Complete with camouflage, and traditionally built by the Royal Engineers Harrier Support chaps. Known as "The Tinkickers". Typically cheesy official SSVC (Services Sound and Video Corporation) video from way back when, uploaded to Youtube in three parts...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PBZ0q4E_uE - part 1, the background stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPJAdPToGSI - part 2, the interesting bit about building the bases.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXyaVEQYVzQ - part 3, the post-construction flight operations bit.
I didn't see a date for the video, but I reckon somewhere between 1987 and 1990. Introduction of the L85-A1 (5.56mm SA80 rifle) around '87, and the introduction into Squadron service of the GR5 Harrier in '90 puts it somewhere in that ballpark, although some SLR (7.62mm self loading rifles) were seen in that video, so the change-over to SA80 wasn't complete when it was made. I served in Germany (and the 1991 Gulf War) in a front line Armoured Engineer squadron equipped with old-school SLRs and LMGs (7.62mm L4A4 light machine gun) and even into 1992/3 there were units where conversion hadn't been fully completed.
Compare the infrastructure seen in those videos with this still image of the Harrier FOB at Port San Carlos in 1982...
...for which the RE units down south had to beg, borrow, scrounge, steal, and improvise the kit needed to support air ops after a lot of the kit required was loaded to Atlantic Conveyor.
Still, I think we should stop hijacking the thred and posting stuff outside of the timeline now...
Sorry OP!
shed driver said:
6th April
The 13,000 ton assault ship HMS Fearless sailed from Portsmouth on April 6 after feverish preparations to embark Commodore Michael Clapp (flying his broad pennant as Commodore Amphibious Warfare) and his staff and to load elements of 3 Commando Brigade, including the headquarters of Brigadier Julian Thompson. These elements included 3 Seaking and 3 Scout helicopters of 846 Naval Air Squadron and 3 Commando Brigade.
I've worked with the Fearless' CO, Jeremy Larken a few times over the last few years. An enormously interesting chap to talk to, as you might imagine. I remember one conversation referring to some previous good fortune on the RN's account - apparently whilst on exercise in Norway IIRC, they'd practiced positioning the ships close inland to avoid/counter enemy bomb runs, using Sea Harriers to 'attack' and confirm their theory. This turned out to be very useful during the landings, when they (against all protocol apparently) bunched up the capital assets close in to terrain, taking advantage of the earlier experience.The 13,000 ton assault ship HMS Fearless sailed from Portsmouth on April 6 after feverish preparations to embark Commodore Michael Clapp (flying his broad pennant as Commodore Amphibious Warfare) and his staff and to load elements of 3 Commando Brigade, including the headquarters of Brigadier Julian Thompson. These elements included 3 Seaking and 3 Scout helicopters of 846 Naval Air Squadron and 3 Commando Brigade.
There's a brilliant voice recording of his on the Imperial War Museum site I think. He runs a Crisis Management and Training organisation now, with Julian Thompson and one or two other senior RN chaps.
14th April
Haig lands in Washington to brief Reagan. He says that he can see no give on either side, but that it was time to threaten Argentina with the full weight of American support for Britain if it did not honour Resolution 502. This was not a universally popular proposal with the State Department, but Reagan agreed.
HMS Glamorgan rendezvous with the two carriers and escort just North of Ascension, and Admiral Woodward transfers his flag to HMS Hermes. A sizeable group, Type 42 destroyers Coventry, Sheffield, Glasgow, and the frigates Arrow and Brilliant are sent South at best possible speed, followed by a tanker. The intent was to have a force as far forward as possible in case a 'freeze' was put into place by the diplomats.
Argentine fleet leaves Puerto Belgrano.
Squadron of ships carrying Royal Marines and special forces sent to retake South Georgia rendezvous with HMS Endurance.
Read the briefing order from CinCFleet to the members of Chiefs of Staff Committee.
The press had been reporting America’s growing support for the UK rather than its stated policy of equanimity was causing disquiet in London, Washington, and Buenos Aries. There were concerns regarding the safety of US citizens in Argentina.
Alexander Haig gets busy on the phones trying to balance both sides.
Firstly a telex to General Galtieri, followed up by a call (in a decidedly more cordial manner) to Margaret Thatcher.
Read the analysis of the permanent secretary.
Note – the documents above were declassified in 2012 under the 30 year rule.
SD.
Haig lands in Washington to brief Reagan. He says that he can see no give on either side, but that it was time to threaten Argentina with the full weight of American support for Britain if it did not honour Resolution 502. This was not a universally popular proposal with the State Department, but Reagan agreed.
HMS Glamorgan rendezvous with the two carriers and escort just North of Ascension, and Admiral Woodward transfers his flag to HMS Hermes. A sizeable group, Type 42 destroyers Coventry, Sheffield, Glasgow, and the frigates Arrow and Brilliant are sent South at best possible speed, followed by a tanker. The intent was to have a force as far forward as possible in case a 'freeze' was put into place by the diplomats.
Argentine fleet leaves Puerto Belgrano.
Squadron of ships carrying Royal Marines and special forces sent to retake South Georgia rendezvous with HMS Endurance.
Read the briefing order from CinCFleet to the members of Chiefs of Staff Committee.
The press had been reporting America’s growing support for the UK rather than its stated policy of equanimity was causing disquiet in London, Washington, and Buenos Aries. There were concerns regarding the safety of US citizens in Argentina.
Alexander Haig gets busy on the phones trying to balance both sides.
Firstly a telex to General Galtieri, followed up by a call (in a decidedly more cordial manner) to Margaret Thatcher.
Read the analysis of the permanent secretary.
Note – the documents above were declassified in 2012 under the 30 year rule.
SD.
Watching documentaries about the Falklands, I'm amazed/disappointed to hear that we got our arses handed to us.
Granted we "won", but how on earth did the Argentinians manage to sink or damage so many of our ships?
Maybe I am blinkered but I would have though that our weapons and tactics would have been superior to Argentina's.
Off on a tangent, but I wonder if the US could have done any better.
Granted we "won", but how on earth did the Argentinians manage to sink or damage so many of our ships?
Maybe I am blinkered but I would have though that our weapons and tactics would have been superior to Argentina's.
Off on a tangent, but I wonder if the US could have done any better.
Gerber1 said:
Watching documentaries about the Falklands, I'm amazed/disappointed to hear that we got our arses handed to us.
Granted we "won", but how on earth did the Argentinians manage to sink or damage so many of our ships?
Maybe I am blinkered but I would have though that our weapons and tactics would have been superior to Argentina's.
Off on a tangent, but I wonder if the US could have done any better.
Without total air superiority a ship is very vulnerable. Close in defence such as Phalanx was not available and with limited maneuvering space such as in San Carlos water it was only going to be a matter of whether the land campaign would be concluded before the RN ran out of ships.Granted we "won", but how on earth did the Argentinians manage to sink or damage so many of our ships?
Maybe I am blinkered but I would have though that our weapons and tactics would have been superior to Argentina's.
Off on a tangent, but I wonder if the US could have done any better.
SD.
shed driver said:
Without total air superiority a ship is very vulnerable. Close in defence such as Phalanx was not available and with limited maneuvering space such as in San Carlos water it was only going to be a matter of whether the land campaign would be concluded before the RN ran out of ships.
SD.
Surface to air missles? SD.
Why was there no air cover when the ships were in San Carlos bay?
Gerber1 said:
Watching documentaries about the Falklands, I'm amazed/disappointed to hear that we got our arses handed to us.
Granted we "won", but how on earth did the Argentinians manage to sink or damage so many of our ships?
Maybe I am blinkered but I would have though that our weapons and tactics would have been superior to Argentina's.
Off on a tangent, but I wonder if the US could have done any better.
A portion of Argentina's Navy was very similar to our own fleet...Granted we "won", but how on earth did the Argentinians manage to sink or damage so many of our ships?
Maybe I am blinkered but I would have though that our weapons and tactics would have been superior to Argentina's.
Off on a tangent, but I wonder if the US could have done any better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_H%C3%A9rcules_(B...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_Sant%C3%ADsima_T...
...imagine that! Selling a country with which you have an ongoing sovereignty dispute one of you best Destroyers, and licencing them to build another. We even sold them two Lynx Mk.23 helicopters... http://www.helis.com/database/modelorg/517/ ...to put on the ships, FFS! It's no wonder the Argentinian Navy were able to work out the weak spots in our ships' defences when they'd have been aware of the issues operating their own fleet.
Edited by yellowjack on Friday 14th April 17:47
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