Dash Cam Footage / Photos of Satnav / Data Log - Racing?
Discussion
Just an idle Sunday afternoon thought (I don't have a dash cam or use a satnav), but are people who post photos of their satnav or videos from their dash / car cams technically racing or speed trailing - has anyone ever been prosecuted in the UK? It's TT here (IOM) at the mo. I went for a run over the mountain myself this morning and it seems like virtually every bike has a go-pro stuck on it now - just occurred to me that technically it could be argued to be racing.
The Road Traffic Act 1988 states - A person who promotes or takes part in a race or trial of speed between motor vehicles on a public way is guilty of an offence.
I'm not talking about capturing dangerous driving, I'm thinking more along the lines of people who are effectively posting evidence that they got from point A to point B in a certain time. Even if that time may not be illegal in terms of the speed limits it could still technically be considered racing or trailing of speed couldn't it?
Just wondering if anyone knows of a conviction.
Edited - I am idle, not an idol.
The Road Traffic Act 1988 states - A person who promotes or takes part in a race or trial of speed between motor vehicles on a public way is guilty of an offence.
I'm not talking about capturing dangerous driving, I'm thinking more along the lines of people who are effectively posting evidence that they got from point A to point B in a certain time. Even if that time may not be illegal in terms of the speed limits it could still technically be considered racing or trailing of speed couldn't it?
Just wondering if anyone knows of a conviction.
Edited - I am idle, not an idol.
Edited by Loaghtan Target on Sunday 28th May 16:07
Loaghtan Target said:
I'm not talking about capturing dangerous driving
Except that's exactly what it'd be prosecuted as.There was this bloke who posted vid of scaring passengers in his Ariel on YT - two charges of dangerous, one of careless.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/w...
He pleaded guilty, though, so no chance for it to be tested in court - but I doubt it would have made a difference.
TooMany2cvs said:
Except that's exactly what it'd be prosecuted as.
There was this bloke who posted vid of scaring passengers in his Ariel on YT - two charges of dangerous, one of careless.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/w...
He pleaded guilty, though, so no chance for it to be tested in court - but I doubt it would have made a difference.
Interesting case, thanks. But as I said, that is clearly a case of dangerous driving which is not what I was thinking of - they worked out he was speeding and presumably from knowing where he was that this would be dangerous. There are videos which show far less danger / recklessness, and possibly not even provable speeding, but which could still be classed as racing or speed trialing. The same could even be said for a photo of a satnav screen - it shows a time from A to B - which could be classed as racing or speed trialing. There was this bloke who posted vid of scaring passengers in his Ariel on YT - two charges of dangerous, one of careless.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/w...
He pleaded guilty, though, so no chance for it to be tested in court - but I doubt it would have made a difference.
Even in light of that prosecution though is it not surprising that more people are not convicted, given the number of similar videos posted?
What makes you think it couldn't have been challenged?
Edited by Loaghtan Target on Sunday 28th May 16:35
Loaghtan Target said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Except that's exactly what it'd be prosecuted as.
There was this bloke who posted vid of scaring passengers in his Ariel on YT - two charges of dangerous, one of careless.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/w...
He pleaded guilty, though, so no chance for it to be tested in court - but I doubt it would have made a difference.
Interesting case, thanks. In light of that prosecution is it not surprising that more people are not convicted then, given the number of similar videos posted? There was this bloke who posted vid of scaring passengers in his Ariel on YT - two charges of dangerous, one of careless.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/w...
He pleaded guilty, though, so no chance for it to be tested in court - but I doubt it would have made a difference.
Loaghtan Target said:
What makes you think it couldn't have been challenged?
It could have been, easily. But would that challenge have been successful? The defendant would have needed to cast doubt on the expert testimony/analysis - so probably an expert witness's analysis of their own. At expert witness who'd really have had to lie through their teeth about the speed, because let's face it - somebody videoing themselves scaring a passenger in an Ariel is not going to be doing so at speeds that are within a country mile of the limit and/or normal speeding, are they...?So it comes back to the good ol' "Is it speeding, or is it dangerous?" question.
Loaghtan Target said:
What of evidence that showed neither speeding, nor dangerous driving, but could still be classed as racing or trialing?
Careless/dangerous don't have to be above the speed limit. Just ask the woman in the Jeremy Vine cyclecam vid... (found guilty of driving without reasonable consideration)I'm not sure what sort of "racing" you'd get that was within the speed limit, safe and careful. Wouldn't that just be traffic...?
That's the bit I'm interested in really, as the wording of the law makes no mention of danger or speed in this section - it's simple states as I have quoted that "A person who promotes or takes part in a race or trial of speed between motor vehicles on a public way is guilty of an offence." As I read it that means - just as an example - that if I were to post up a photo of my satnav in a discussion about a particularly nice driving road in a thread on this forum, and the photo included details of how long it had taken me to drive that road (which wouldn't be an usual thing to do or see here on PH), I would in effect have created a speed trial no matter what the time taken actually was. Do you see what I mean?
OddCat said:
Great idea to video yourself comitting a crime !
I'm just of to poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick.......
That's the point I'm making. In theory anyone who presents evidence that they travelled from point A to point B in a given time has created a speed trial. I just wondered if anyone has ever been convicted for it. I'm just of to poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick.......
Loaghtan Target said:
That's the point I'm making. In theory anyone who presents evidence that they travelled from point A to point B in a given time has created a speed trial.
Is kite flying your favourite leisure activity? 
What offence are you contending I have committed if I were to provide evidence that I drove 7.2 miles on a s/c NSL road in a given time of 10 minutes 22 seconds?
Loaghtan Target said:
I just wondered if anyone has ever been convicted for it.
In terms of your theory, I very much doubt it.I don't think you have understood the meaning of race and trial of speed (per RTA 1988 Section 12).
It was always about competition between vehicles. Hence the amendments in the Deregulation Act 2015 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/20/sectio...
TooMany2cvs said:
Loaghtan Target said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Except that's exactly what it'd be prosecuted as.
There was this bloke who posted vid of scaring passengers in his Ariel on YT - two charges of dangerous, one of careless.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/w...
He pleaded guilty, though, so no chance for it to be tested in court - but I doubt it would have made a difference.
Interesting case, thanks. In light of that prosecution is it not surprising that more people are not convicted then, given the number of similar videos posted? There was this bloke who posted vid of scaring passengers in his Ariel on YT - two charges of dangerous, one of careless.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/w...
He pleaded guilty, though, so no chance for it to be tested in court - but I doubt it would have made a difference.
Loaghtan Target said:
What makes you think it couldn't have been challenged?
It could have been, easily. But would that challenge have been successful? The defendant would have needed to cast doubt on the expert testimony/analysis - so probably an expert witness's analysis of their own. At expert witness who'd really have had to lie through their teeth about the speed, because let's face it - somebody videoing themselves scaring a passenger in an Ariel is not going to be doing so at speeds that are within a country mile of the limit and/or normal speeding, are they...?So it comes back to the good ol' "Is it speeding, or is it dangerous?" question.
Dangerous driving is decided on the basis of the actions as viewed through the eyes of a notional competent & careful driver.
Red Devil said:
Loaghtan Target said:
That's the point I'm making. In theory anyone who presents evidence that they travelled from point A to point B in a given time has created a speed trial.
Is kite flying your favourite leisure activity? What offence are you contending I have committed if I were to provide evidence that I drove 7.2 miles on a s/c NSL road in a given time of 10 minutes 22 seconds?
Loaghtan Target said:
I just wondered if anyone has ever been convicted for it.
In terms of your theory, I very much doubt it.I don't think you have understood the meaning of race and trial of speed (per RTA 1988 Section 12).
It was always about competition between vehicles. Hence the amendments in the Deregulation Act 2015 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/20/sectio...
I googled around a bit. There have been a few convictions for racing on the highway (MS50). It would seem they are usually relating to drag racing type scenarios which are usually clearly pretty dangerous, rather than the A to B situation I was thinking of. My assumption is the police don't bother chasing someone for a video etc. unless some other nuisance or danger was apparent, and it would seem that is the case up to now anyway.
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-new...
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/bi...
Googling unearthed more gems though...
In the list of driving conviction codes just above Racing on the Highway (MS50) is... Playstreet Offences - (MS30). You learn something new every day
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-new...
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/bi...
Googling unearthed more gems though...
In the list of driving conviction codes just above Racing on the Highway (MS50) is... Playstreet Offences - (MS30). You learn something new every day
Loaghtan Target said:
Red Devil said:
Loaghtan Target said:
That's the point I'm making. In theory anyone who presents evidence that they travelled from point A to point B in a given time has created a speed trial.
Is kite flying your favourite leisure activity? What offence are you contending I have committed if I were to provide evidence that I drove 7.2 miles on a s/c NSL road in a given time of 10 minutes 22 seconds?
Loaghtan Target said:
I just wondered if anyone has ever been convicted for it.
In terms of your theory, I very much doubt it.I don't think you have understood the meaning of race and trial of speed (per RTA 1988 Section 12).
It was always about competition between vehicles. Hence the amendments in the Deregulation Act 2015 - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/20/sectio...
I'm well aware of the MSA Yearbook* regulations btw having previously competed as both a navigator and a driver.
* usually referred to as the 'Blue Book'.
Loaghtan Target said:
If you post that information online in such a way that someone else could try to match it you are effectively at risk of instigating a competition - in essence exactly the same principle as a road rally.
What 'way' would that be? And how would you prove to the criminal standard (i.e. beyond a reasonable doubt) that I was promoting such an action on their part? You're clutching at straws I'm afraid. Your original post referred to 'people who post photos of their satnav or videos from their dash / car cams'. AFAICS those who boast about their exploits are far too self-centred and up themselves to be concerned about what others might do.
Where more than one car is involved in high speed manoeuvres it is far more likely that the prosecution will prefer a charge of dangerous driving than a RTA Section 12 offence.
As in the case of these two t
s - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRtYEhAnJ28http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/8484799.VIDEO__Driv...
I would be extremely surprised if anyone has been prosecuted under Section 12 and imo the chances of it happening are vanishingly small.
Red Devil said:
Then you think wrongly. I would merely be providing you with facts about distance and time from which my average speed can be calculated. You would have no knowledge of my actual speed at any given point. Your assumption that my evidence would have anything to do with a competetive event is your own invention.
I'm well aware of the MSA Yearbook* regulations btw having previously competed as both a navigator and a driver.
* usually referred to as the 'Blue Book'.
Your original post referred to 'people who post photos of their satnav or videos from their dash / car cams'. AFAICS those who boast about their exploits are far too self-centred and up themselves to be concerned about what others might do....
I would be extremely surprised if anyone has been prosecuted under Section 12 and imo the chances of it happening are vanishingly small.
OK, we'll just have to agree to disagree then. Again your actual speed is irrelevant as I'm not talking about speeding, and speed is not mentioned in this section of the act. Evidence that you travelled from A to B at a given average speed is exactly how you would be recorded on a road rally - your actual speed at any given point would never be recorded for such a competition, it is irrelevant. The competitive element in a road rally is that it has been specifically organised - with a permit - to allow timing on the road. Without a permit it is illegal, whether the average speed is 30 or 10 or 1mph - makes no difference. I fully acknowledge that the competitive element is a matter of opinion in the context I've given, but that was the thrust of my original curiosity - has it ever happened (the answer would seem to be no in terms of recent history).I'm well aware of the MSA Yearbook* regulations btw having previously competed as both a navigator and a driver.
* usually referred to as the 'Blue Book'.
Loaghtan Target said:
If you post that information online in such a way that someone else could try to match it you are effectively at risk of instigating a competition - in essence exactly the same principle as a road rally.
What 'way' would that be? And how would you prove to the criminal standard (i.e. beyond a reasonable doubt) that I was promoting such an action on their part? You're clutching at straws I'm afraid. Your original post referred to 'people who post photos of their satnav or videos from their dash / car cams'. AFAICS those who boast about their exploits are far too self-centred and up themselves to be concerned about what others might do....
I would be extremely surprised if anyone has been prosecuted under Section 12 and imo the chances of it happening are vanishingly small.
You see plenty of discussion on this forum which could potentially be construed as such - i.e. people providing the evidence of their own actions (it's not just promoting but participating which is listed in the act). For example... Let's just say that you and I are discussing a particular road somewhere, and I am foolish enough to post up a photo of my sat nav which shows I travelled from A to B on it, at an average speed that could still be below the speed limit for that road, but would involve driving fairly quickly to achieve - entirely plausible. And let's just say you're foolish enough to post up a photo of the same - that's the bones of a road rally whichever way you slice it. As I say, I assume the police would only take an interest if other issues arose, but I think the basic premise would be there if they did.
Edited by Loaghtan Target on Tuesday 30th May 22:55
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