Family Court without a Solicitor - Anyone done it?
Discussion
mjb1 said:
Did you actually tell her that you'd given the phone to your new missus instead lol? I'd just give the bloody thing to your ex and tell her it's the last one she's getting from you. Pick your battles carefully/loose the fight to win the war, etc. On the other hand, if you give them an inch they take a mile. Might be a new phone this month, but she'll want a new car next (there was a thread on exactly that on here recently).
Agreed. So many times the most stupid things grow out of all proportion.You should contact social services (again) and the police if you want the court to see your allegations have substance (the court will request SS and Police knowledge and if they come back empty claims/allegation are usually dismissed.
MYOB said:
Useful background there Julian. So to summarise, those with no money are strongly disadvantaged?
And any litigant in person shouldn't expect any form of "support" from the courts?
I just have to do my best. I simply don't have a choice and I've probably bitten off more than I can chew given I have filed 3 applications simultaneously.
Those with no money get legal aid, so are not disadvantaged.And any litigant in person shouldn't expect any form of "support" from the courts?
I just have to do my best. I simply don't have a choice and I've probably bitten off more than I can chew given I have filed 3 applications simultaneously.
Any litigant in person should only expect the contempt of the judge (unless they are very lucky in the judge appointed for the hearing) and no support.
What is the summary of your issues and where are you know with regard to proceedings?
JulianPH said:
Those with no money get legal aid, so are not disadvantaged.
Any litigant in person should only expect the contempt of the judge (unless they are very lucky in the judge appointed for the hearing) and no support.
What is the summary of your issues and where are you know with regard to proceedings?
Not true for family court matters though? You only get legal aid in specific circumstances I think?Any litigant in person should only expect the contempt of the judge (unless they are very lucky in the judge appointed for the hearing) and no support.
What is the summary of your issues and where are you know with regard to proceedings?
Good luck guys. I cannot add anything to this other than to hope that you get the results that you are hoping for.
It is totally wrong (and we all know this) that mothers use children as leverage. If proven then IMO the mother should lose access to the kids as it is clear that they are not acting on the best behalves of the children.
It is totally wrong (and we all know this) that mothers use children as leverage. If proven then IMO the mother should lose access to the kids as it is clear that they are not acting on the best behalves of the children.
JulianPH said:
Those with no money get legal aid, so are not disadvantaged.
Any litigant in person should only expect the contempt of the judge (unless they are very lucky in the judge appointed for the hearing) and no support.
What is the summary of your issues and where are you know with regard to proceedings?
No legal aid now except for cases of DV that is evidenced and documented.Any litigant in person should only expect the contempt of the judge (unless they are very lucky in the judge appointed for the hearing) and no support.
What is the summary of your issues and where are you know with regard to proceedings?
Summary of my issues:
1) formerly "stay at home dad"
2) falsely accused of DV and arrested
3) released without charged and no further action
4) I've accused wife of abuse against one child and drinking excessively
5) wife won't allow me back in the matrimonial home (she has changed the locks)
6) access to children is every other weekend and every Wednesday (28% in my favour)
I have filed:
i) occupational order - had first hearing, will return for fact finding hearing
ii) Child Arrangements Order - I've requested being resident parent
iii) Financial Order
In response to my submission of an Occupational Order, wife has also filed for an Occupational Order along with a non-molestation order.
Given that you believe that Legal Aid is available for those with no money, I presume your exposure and knowledge of Family Courts goes back a few years. Everything I have read and researched does indicate that being a LIP is fairly routine these days and is accepted by the courts. In the First Hearing of the Occupational Order case, both myself and the wife were LIP and I found the court and judges extremely helpful.
Edited by MYOB on Thursday 18th January 17:35
MikeDrop said:
Thank you Julian - again, really really appreciate it! 
To answer the below:
Completely agree with giving her the phone. I'd give her mine as to not make the OH suffer, my situation, not hers (although she has offered it back).
I've just got off the phone with her. It's Thursday and I'd usually have the kids. I called to speak to the kids and say about picking them up tonight. But "Oh mammy said she's going to take us to the cinema and buy us sweets with [her boyfriend's daughter]" so they obviously would want to stay there. She never takes them anywhere in the week. Just so happens she's planned an outing on the night I'm supposed to have them.
ETA - I mentioned putting this to bed as it's just over a mobile phone. I've offered her additional money (verbally), but it's clear she wants the phone back to satisfy her perverse sense of pride and one-up-manship.
My eldest (8yr old boy) has already told me she's mentioned not coming to mine on a Thursday anymore. Which has really annoyed me as now they have the expectation that they're not coming. They were genuinely sad about it, but being the amazing kids they are reassured me that "it's ok as we'll make sure we have double the fun when we do see you"
.
Even if I do give her the phone, I'll want the Arrangement Order so she can't try and pull this stunt in the future whenever she throws her toys out of the pram.
Ari - that's exactly what I foresee, unfortunately.
I need a pint.
Go and have a pint! To answer the below:
- Removing one night a week - Has she given any reason for this (ideally in writing). You will obviously be seeking this night back
- Withholding contact in order to get a new mobile phone - Has this been communicated in writing?
Completely agree with giving her the phone. I'd give her mine as to not make the OH suffer, my situation, not hers (although she has offered it back).
I've just got off the phone with her. It's Thursday and I'd usually have the kids. I called to speak to the kids and say about picking them up tonight. But "Oh mammy said she's going to take us to the cinema and buy us sweets with [her boyfriend's daughter]" so they obviously would want to stay there. She never takes them anywhere in the week. Just so happens she's planned an outing on the night I'm supposed to have them.
ETA - I mentioned putting this to bed as it's just over a mobile phone. I've offered her additional money (verbally), but it's clear she wants the phone back to satisfy her perverse sense of pride and one-up-manship.
My eldest (8yr old boy) has already told me she's mentioned not coming to mine on a Thursday anymore. Which has really annoyed me as now they have the expectation that they're not coming. They were genuinely sad about it, but being the amazing kids they are reassured me that "it's ok as we'll make sure we have double the fun when we do see you"
. Even if I do give her the phone, I'll want the Arrangement Order so she can't try and pull this stunt in the future whenever she throws her toys out of the pram.
Ari - that's exactly what I foresee, unfortunately.
I need a pint.
Edited by MikeDrop on Thursday 18th January 16:27
I now know what you need to do:
You need to print off all the evidence you have (separately where possible, combined where not) together with a diary of all contact, highlighting when your ex did not turn up for collection and/or changed plans at last minute.
Highlight that she is putting special effort into the kids well-being only on nights they expected to be with you (oldest trick in the book).
Instruct a solicitor to forward these as evidence of her actions with a covering letter that simply reads;
Dear
We have been instructed by our client to confirm your position on matters relating to your joint children.
It is evidenced below that you are preventing the children from continuing with an established routine of parental contact on the basis that you require our client to provide you with a new mobile phone. It is further evidenced that you are reducing the children's contact with their father in order to increase your Child Support payments.
Our experience is that the courts never take kindly to such manoeuvring by a parent to satisfy their own gains at the expense of the children's well-being. Should you seek your own legal representation this will be further confirmed to you.
Our client has already instructed us to commence with court proceedings but is currently going against our advice by wishing to see if this matter can be resolved outside of court and only ratified by a Consent Order within the court.
Our client is offering to purchase the new phone if you agree to minimise the time and expense of protracted court hearings bay agreeing to the Order below.
We expect your response by the the 25th of January at the latest before we commence formal court proceedings.
Yours
If she agrees, I'll pay for the phone!
MYOB said:
No legal aid now except for cases of DV that is evidenced and documented.
Given that you believe that Legal Aid is available for those with no money, I presume your exposure and knowledge of Family Courts goes back a few years.
You are right on both counts. My experiences at family courts were in 2008 - 2011 and 2016. Legal Aid was available (as far as I recall) in 2008. It was not even a factor in my 2016 case.Given that you believe that Legal Aid is available for those with no money, I presume your exposure and knowledge of Family Courts goes back a few years.
Edited by MYOB on Thursday 18th January 17:35
I did not wish to misguide. Not being in the best of health right now I was simply seeking to assist others here and mispositioned a recollection as a current factual statement.
JulianPH said:
You are right on both counts. My experiences at family courts were in 2008 - 2011 and 2016. Legal Aid was available (as far as I recall) in 2008. It was not even a factor in my 2016 case.
I did not wish to misguide. Not being in the best of health right now I was simply seeking to assist others here and mispositioned a recollection as a current factual statement.
Looks very much like my ex would get legal aid for family matters (due to playing the DV card), which puts me in a very weak position to fight her. Don't appear to have any other choice - me voicing displeasure at her idea of moving away with the kids isn't changing her mind, just making her more determined (fairly convinced one of her main reasons is that it's the last bit of leverage she has to control me with).I did not wish to misguide. Not being in the best of health right now I was simply seeking to assist others here and mispositioned a recollection as a current factual statement.
mjb1 said:
Looks very much like my ex would get legal aid for family matters (due to playing the DV card), which puts me in a very weak position to fight her. Don't appear to have any other choice - me voicing displeasure at her idea of moving away with the kids isn't changing her mind, just making her more determined (fairly convinced one of her main reasons is that it's the last bit of leverage she has to control me with).
To get legal aid, she would need strong evidence and possibly a confession or guilty verdict. She would also need to meet the financial criteria. Julian, not a problem. Your posts are helpful in terms of general approach. But I do believe the stigma against LIP is not as negative nowadays.
Best of luck everyone else!
MYOB said:
To get legal aid, she would need strong evidence and possibly a confession or guilty verdict. She would also need to meet the financial criteria.
Julian, not a problem. Your posts are helpful in terms of general approach. But I do believe the stigma against LIP is not as negative nowadays.
Best of luck everyone else!
Unfortunately, I ended up accepting a caution after an 'altercation' (ironically the result of her getting drunk and neglecting the kids - she left our five year old child in the pub alone at midnight, and our younger two in the 'care of' a random 15 year old lad). So I'm presuming that'll be enough for her to get legal aid, sure she'll meet the financial criteria too.Julian, not a problem. Your posts are helpful in terms of general approach. But I do believe the stigma against LIP is not as negative nowadays.
Best of luck everyone else!
MikeDrop said:
I've just got off the phone with her. It's Thursday and I'd usually have the kids. I called to speak to the kids and say about picking them up tonight. But "Oh mammy said she's going to take us to the cinema and buy us sweets with [her boyfriend's daughter]" so they obviously would want to stay there. She never takes them anywhere in the week. Just so happens she's planned an outing on the night I'm supposed to have them.
This, I'm afraid, is exactly my point. All the legal leverage in the world won't overcome this sort of behaviour, and women seem to be really really good at it.My ex moved to the other end of the country with my son when he was little (for reasons that would benefit her financially to do with members of her family that lived there).
On one occasion when he was coming to stay at mine for a week (which involved over a thousand miles of driving to fetch and return him each time), she told him just before I picked him up that he'd be getting a new bike as soon as he got back.
So I then had a 10 year old (or however old he was then) wanting nothing more than to go home for his new bike.
You simply cannot win against this kind of emotional manipulation.
Having lived through it, the only positive advice I can give is that they do grow up surprisingly quickly, and if you've played it with a straight bat they normally work it out for themselves later on. My son is now able to (and does) visit me by train whenever he wants and I've had no contact with his mother for the best part of a decade.
It doesn't feel like it at the time, but this is just a phase, it's not life for ever (even if it does feel like it).
I was a LIP in 2013 when my ex played the occupation order/non molestation game, as I mentioned previously its all down to the judge on the day, even now as to how they view a LIP. Yes since removal of legal aid they are seeing far more, but most do not like it one bit, In time I guess as new fresh young judges come on board it will be more accepted.
An old crusty judge gave her both orders ex parte, I was at the house at the time, none the wiser, looking after my daughters, as the police had removed the ex that weekend under threat of arrest. She went straight to her solicitor and they crafted a clever little story, which a judge fell for hook line and sinker. Next thing I know , knock on the door later that day, 6 coppers telling me I had 15 mins to collect my things and leave the house or be arrested! ex is parked on the drive in her car smirking at me.
I contested the ex parte order as a LIP, first judge I saw was superb, but it had to then go in front of the judge who had made the order. I could have had the pope in there with me backing me up, there was no way the judge was going to admit he was wrong to issue the orders ex parte. that was it, for 12 months I could go no where near my home or my children, and I had to pick up her legal costs on top.
Karma sorted it all out though eventually :-)
An old crusty judge gave her both orders ex parte, I was at the house at the time, none the wiser, looking after my daughters, as the police had removed the ex that weekend under threat of arrest. She went straight to her solicitor and they crafted a clever little story, which a judge fell for hook line and sinker. Next thing I know , knock on the door later that day, 6 coppers telling me I had 15 mins to collect my things and leave the house or be arrested! ex is parked on the drive in her car smirking at me.
I contested the ex parte order as a LIP, first judge I saw was superb, but it had to then go in front of the judge who had made the order. I could have had the pope in there with me backing me up, there was no way the judge was going to admit he was wrong to issue the orders ex parte. that was it, for 12 months I could go no where near my home or my children, and I had to pick up her legal costs on top.
Karma sorted it all out though eventually :-)
mjb1 said:
Unfortunately, I ended up accepting a caution after an 'altercation' (ironically the result of her getting drunk and neglecting the kids - she left our five year old child in the pub alone at midnight, and our younger two in the 'care of' a random 15 year old lad). So I'm presuming that'll be enough for her to get legal aid, sure she'll meet the financial criteria too.
Don't lose hope just yet though. It's all about what is best for the children, to repeat the oft repeated mantra.PAUL500 said:
I was a LIP in 2013 when my ex played the occupation order/non molestation game, as I mentioned previously its all down to the judge on the day, even now as to how they view a LIP. Yes since removal of legal aid they are seeing far more, but most do not like it one bit, In time I guess as new fresh young judges come on board it will be more accepted.
An old crusty judge gave her both orders ex parte, I was at the house at the time, none the wiser, looking after my daughters, as the police had removed the ex that weekend under threat of arrest. She went straight to her solicitor and they crafted a clever little story, which a judge fell for hook line and sinker. Next thing I know , knock on the door later that day, 6 coppers telling me I had 15 mins to collect my things and leave the house or be arrested! ex is parked on the drive in her car smirking at me.
I contested the ex parte order as a LIP, first judge I saw was superb, but it had to then go in front of the judge who had made the order. I could have had the pope in there with me backing me up, there was no way the judge was going to admit he was wrong to issue the orders ex parte. that was it, for 12 months I could go no where near my home or my children, and I had to pick up her legal costs on top.
Karma sorted it all out though eventually :-)
Was it your ex that tried to have the kids put in care soon after she won the custody battle/divorce settlement? Are they back with you now, or am I getting you mixed up with another PHer?An old crusty judge gave her both orders ex parte, I was at the house at the time, none the wiser, looking after my daughters, as the police had removed the ex that weekend under threat of arrest. She went straight to her solicitor and they crafted a clever little story, which a judge fell for hook line and sinker. Next thing I know , knock on the door later that day, 6 coppers telling me I had 15 mins to collect my things and leave the house or be arrested! ex is parked on the drive in her car smirking at me.
I contested the ex parte order as a LIP, first judge I saw was superb, but it had to then go in front of the judge who had made the order. I could have had the pope in there with me backing me up, there was no way the judge was going to admit he was wrong to issue the orders ex parte. that was it, for 12 months I could go no where near my home or my children, and I had to pick up her legal costs on top.
Karma sorted it all out though eventually :-)
mjb1 said:
Was it your ex that tried to have the kids put in care soon after she won the custody battle/divorce settlement? Are they back with you now, or am I getting you mixed up with another PHer?
Yes that was me, and the reason why it all ended up in front of the top lady judge in the end. No the eldest is still in care, she has special needs so its probably the best place for her given all the things that went on, she seems settled now, the youngest is still being monitored at home with the ex but social services are next to useless. I still see/chat to both of them luckily.If I had read what I had written by anyone else, I would have been thinking "no way, there has to be more to it than that, two sides to every story etc" but scarily that is how easy the courts hand out such things, and bang that's it, game over. As soon as she was awarded the lions share of the assets in the divorce after the 12 months were up, funnily enough it was then fine for me to go back and finish building the house each and every day so she would end up with even more money, but I had to just bite my tongue and get on with it otherwise I would have walked away with virtually nothing as the judge said sell it unfinished.
Edited by PAUL500 on Thursday 18th January 21:50
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