Discussion
Ash73 I leave at 4pm sharp and I mean sharp every day so I can pick up my son.
Last year my metrics were top on every performance measure out of a team of 14. It was calculated that I am 1.5-2 persons worth here.
I DONT do any additional work in the evenings
Why should I?
Even ^ I'd still be hamstring at a promotion level though even though my company is very good. Purely because managers can't be seen to leave before staff (not spoken/said but you only have to use common sense).
Ash73, ask yourself who would you give a payrise and bonus to, me the rest of the team? You'd then have to (sadly) promote the second best in my team wouldn't you purely based on Fixed stifled British ways of seeing things.
One day all this will change, those who hate change and dynamic working will have gone. Much like the white shirts and ties of old.
Last year my metrics were top on every performance measure out of a team of 14. It was calculated that I am 1.5-2 persons worth here.
I DONT do any additional work in the evenings
Why should I?
Even ^ I'd still be hamstring at a promotion level though even though my company is very good. Purely because managers can't be seen to leave before staff (not spoken/said but you only have to use common sense).
Ash73, ask yourself who would you give a payrise and bonus to, me the rest of the team? You'd then have to (sadly) promote the second best in my team wouldn't you purely based on Fixed stifled British ways of seeing things.
One day all this will change, those who hate change and dynamic working will have gone. Much like the white shirts and ties of old.
Edited by Sa Calobra on Friday 16th June 08:24
Sa Calobra said:
BTW I don't mean anything vitorol or personal it's just the way we work here. In the future there will be a huge mix of home/remote and other offsite working with more video conferencing and minimal overheads on operating a traditional office/lease and costs.
Similar to your position. Interestingly in my old dept, the snr manager said that anyone able to do their workload in their contracted hours wasn't being a proper manager...
She took pride in working 100hrs a week.
Needless to say its cost her health and her marriage, but hey - she's a real manager...
I am now the same grade as her, happy and enjoy work.
We/you can monitor staffs activity or even just their results anyway. I've worked in companies where people are at work until 6.30/7 and I've spotted them, basically hiding within the organisation doing very little work but looking the part and playing the politics.
Every so often the org might have a time and motion study (hideous temporary thing) and they'll pick up their work during this period as the company will of course announce help coming in.
Anyway this is OT
Every so often the org might have a time and motion study (hideous temporary thing) and they'll pick up their work during this period as the company will of course announce help coming in.
Anyway this is OT
Sa Calobra said:
In the future there will be a huge mix of home/remote and other offsite working with more video conferencing and minimal overheads on operating a traditional office/lease and costs.
Off topic now.Don't forget many companies still make "things". Yes - they really do! The bulk of my staff couldn't work from home or offsite because they need the equipment which is here.
Evanivitch said:
swerni said:
Rockers / mods /hiipies etc have no relation as to gender, which seems to be the issue at the moment.
Not quite the same thing, or has that escaped you?
And because gender is involved it's different? What about race?Not quite the same thing, or has that escaped you?
Your genetalia define your sex not gender. They are different things, which people have incorrectly taken to be interchangeable.
Society has defined men as the bread winner and women as the home maker historically. Those are gender roles - the attributes assigned to a certain sex (strong and confident v demur and caring) by what society expects.
Obviously this has been progressively falling by the wayside more and more over the last 50 years or so.
When you break everything down to the bare bones of it, just treat a human as a human, without assigning them a male/female role based on their sex - that's all just made up at the end of the day.
You may as well call yourself whatever - its just another made up thing.
it's all pretty irrelevant anyway IMHO.
FWIW - I work with someone who is constantly ill, always complaining, threatened to leave if they didn't get promoted, is near the bottom of the profitability scale in he department and seems enormously entitled.
They're 45.
I don't understand why everyone is so keen to bung everyone together in groups - whether it be based on gender, age whatever - and make a broad generalisation.
People are all individuals. They all do stuff a bit differently from each other.
Up until a few years ago i would regularly be in the office for 9ish and then leave about 6ish and end up doing a couple of hours work at home at least 3 nights out of 5.
I was starting to get a bit fed up of it all and the Mrs even more so. It is a given in my line of work that sometimes you have to put in a lot of extra hours and there are periods where you are having to work 16+ hours to get things done, but to do so for months on end is not right.
Anyway a few years ago i started to go home at 1pm on a Tuesday and despite moans from the bosses i have stuck to it (most of the time as some times you just can't). These days i leave sometime between 18:00 and 19:00 depending on work load and work at home every Tuesday afternoon until about the same time. I can count on one hand the number of all nighters i have had to pull since i started to do this and both i and the Mrs are much happier.
It's not the number of hours you work but how much you can do in that time.
Now must dash as i want to be out by 5 tonight!
I was starting to get a bit fed up of it all and the Mrs even more so. It is a given in my line of work that sometimes you have to put in a lot of extra hours and there are periods where you are having to work 16+ hours to get things done, but to do so for months on end is not right.
Anyway a few years ago i started to go home at 1pm on a Tuesday and despite moans from the bosses i have stuck to it (most of the time as some times you just can't). These days i leave sometime between 18:00 and 19:00 depending on work load and work at home every Tuesday afternoon until about the same time. I can count on one hand the number of all nighters i have had to pull since i started to do this and both i and the Mrs are much happier.
It's not the number of hours you work but how much you can do in that time.
Now must dash as i want to be out by 5 tonight!
I looked around my fellow commuters on my 06.53 train to Waterloo (and the platforms when it arrived) yesterday morning and today to see how many millenniums were hurrying to work on it, just a handful to be honest, most people at that time on my line seem to be in their late 30s through to 50s. Maybe the millennials all had to work overnight so didn't get to go home, but I suspect they'd be rolling in about 10am instead. That's certainly what they seem to do at my workplace, except for the days they "work" at home.
Vocal Minority said:
Evanivitch said:
swerni said:
Rockers / mods /hiipies etc have no relation as to gender, which seems to be the issue at the moment.
Not quite the same thing, or has that escaped you?
And because gender is involved it's different? What about race?Not quite the same thing, or has that escaped you?
Your genetalia define your sex not gender. They are different things, which people have incorrectly taken to be interchangeable.
Society has defined men as the bread winner and women as the home maker historically. Those are gender roles - the attributes assigned to a certain sex (strong and confident v demur and caring) by what society expects.
Obviously this has been progressively falling by the wayside more and more over the last 50 years or so.
When you break everything down to the bare bones of it, just treat a human as a human, without assigning them a male/female role based on their sex - that's all just made up at the end of the day.
You may as well call yourself whatever - its just another made up thing.
it's all pretty irrelevant anyway IMHO.
FWIW - I work with someone who is constantly ill, always complaining, threatened to leave if they didn't get promoted, is near the bottom of the profitability scale in he department and seems enormously entitled.
They're 45.
I don't understand why everyone is so keen to bung everyone together in groups - whether it be based on gender, age whatever - and make a broad generalisation.
People are all individuals. They all do stuff a bit differently from each other.
Gender roles were developed over a long time, based on physiological and psychological differences and preferences between men and women that, when leveraged a particular way, dramatically increased both the survival rates of the individuals but also benefitted their children's upbringing, thus in turn dramatically improving their survival chances. Those physiological and biological differences persist to this day and don't look like they're in any danger of going away any time soon.
None of this makes men or women 'better' than each other - that's as absurd as saying the , but long established behaviours exist for a reason. If you think you understand all these reasons fully and then choose to determine that they are no longer valid, then bully for you. Personally I think I would be extremely arrogant if I thought this way.
We live in a free society and everyone is free to make their own individual choices based on their acceptance or rejection of these facts. There are consequences to all decisions. If you're happy with those consequences then fine - but they are YOUR choices and consequences not mine and don't demand that I adjust my life in any way to mitigate or accommodate them. Because, as the ultimate expression of egalitarianism, I really couldn't care less about your lifestyle, what pronouns you want to be called by, how your hair looks, or anything*. But if you act or think in particular ways then I am less likely to want contact with you. And in a free society, that is MY choice.
I, like everyone else, prefer to interact with people I identify with. That means this group can work together better and achieve more and be happier. And then groups self identify. And then broader society recognises that. I hope that explains a bit how groups are formed.
- Tiresome as it is that I have to add this, I should point out to any tree hugging hippes that read this, this doesn't mean that I am free from compassion. But the scope of my compassion does not include your own personal choices.
Edited by Angrybiker on Friday 16th June 13:08
Angrybiker said:
Gender used to be the same thing as sex, until a small group of people bastardised it to also include a perception of self identity - which is knowable and undeterminable to everyone else, dynamic and ultimately of no consequence whatever to anyone or anything apart from the individual in question.
Gender roles were developed over a long time, based on physiological and psychological differences and preferences between men and women that, when leveraged a particular way, dramatically increased both the survival rates of the individuals but also benefitted their children's upbringing, thus in turn dramatically improving their survival chances. Those physiological and biological differences persist to this day and don't look like they're in any danger of going away any time soon.
None of this makes men or women 'better' than each other - that's as absurd as saying the , but long established behaviours exist for a reason. If you think you understand all these reasons fully and then choose to determine that they are no longer valid, then bully for you. Personally I think I would be extremely arrogant if I thought this way.
We live in a free society and everyone is free to make their own individual choices based on their acceptance or rejection of these facts. There are consequences to all decisions. If you're happy with those consequences then fine - but they are YOUR choices and consequences not mine and don't demand that I adjust my life in any way to mitigate or accommodate them. Because, as the ultimate expression of egalitarianism, I really couldn't care less about your lifestyle, what pronouns you want to be called by, how your hair looks, or anything*. But if you act or think in particular ways then I am less likely to want contact with you. And in a free society, that is MY choice.
[snip]
That's all fair enough. I am not asking anyone to do anything they don't want to do. Gender roles were developed over a long time, based on physiological and psychological differences and preferences between men and women that, when leveraged a particular way, dramatically increased both the survival rates of the individuals but also benefitted their children's upbringing, thus in turn dramatically improving their survival chances. Those physiological and biological differences persist to this day and don't look like they're in any danger of going away any time soon.
None of this makes men or women 'better' than each other - that's as absurd as saying the , but long established behaviours exist for a reason. If you think you understand all these reasons fully and then choose to determine that they are no longer valid, then bully for you. Personally I think I would be extremely arrogant if I thought this way.
We live in a free society and everyone is free to make their own individual choices based on their acceptance or rejection of these facts. There are consequences to all decisions. If you're happy with those consequences then fine - but they are YOUR choices and consequences not mine and don't demand that I adjust my life in any way to mitigate or accommodate them. Because, as the ultimate expression of egalitarianism, I really couldn't care less about your lifestyle, what pronouns you want to be called by, how your hair looks, or anything*. But if you act or think in particular ways then I am less likely to want contact with you. And in a free society, that is MY choice.
[snip]
- Tiresome as it is that I have to add this, I should point out to any tree hugging hippes that read this, this doesn't mean that I am free from compassion. But the scope of my compassion does not include your own personal choices.
Edited by Angrybiker on Friday 16th June 13:08
Just making an observation.
Though as a point of discussion - not criticism -
bit what I snipped said:
I, like everyone else, prefer to interact with people I identify with. That means this group can work together better and achieve more and be happier. And then groups self identify. And then broader society recognises that. I hope that explains a bit how groups are formed.
Isn't that sort of what is happening with all the gender stuff?Also I am not referring to groups that we all identify with, like friendship groups, groups of the same political persuasion etc - genuine like minded groups.
But groups like 'millenials' - these loose sort of general terms for people born in the late 80s and early 90s - where all they have in common is a broad age bracket.
They haven't gravitated together, like the groups you refer to. They have been lazily lumped together. And then generalised as feckless, lazy and entitled - despite their being mounting evidence in this thread to show that there are all sorts of personalities, work ethics and varying senses of entitlement or disenfranchisement within that one, supposed, homogenous group.
That's what I am referring to - sorry if that wasn't clear.
Edited by Vocal Minority on Friday 16th June 16:54
Sa Calobra said:
Wasn't comparing youth rates to other age brackets, but rather current youth rates of smoking versus older youth rates. Youth rates of smoking have generally been higher than older age brackets for some time as more people quit the habit than start it as they get older. The situation is improving.https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/15/sm...
RicksAlfas said:
Off topic now.
Don't forget many companies still make "things". Yes - they really do! The bulk of my staff couldn't work from home or offsite because they need the equipment which is here.
I keep reading stuff here about people working from home or being able to be more productive.Don't forget many companies still make "things". Yes - they really do! The bulk of my staff couldn't work from home or offsite because they need the equipment which is here.
In the industry I work in, it really is simply down to working hard and putting in a lot of time. Manufacturing and transport.
The work just does take a lot of time, that's how it is. The only way to reduce hours worked is to robotise more and reduce the workforce. There would be no point telling me to reward someone who works smarter - it is totally pointless in this context. Obviously some people are simply better at their jobs and more willing to do the work properly and with a better attitude. Those are the ones who get rewarded.
Maybe this could explain the different attitudes. Not everyone works at a desk or computer and not everyone does work that can be positively affected by such a flexible approach.
Manufacturing is different, you don't tend to get a rush hour queue of cars going towards a city centre for a factory or manufacturing plant.
Better/smarter working practices would reduce motorway snarl ups for factory staff too as they'd be less of me having to go and sit I a sealed white box with sealed windows and round the clock a/c piped in. I hate it. It's like being inside a day release prison. No window ventilation, sat in rows like battery hens.
Better/smarter working practices would reduce motorway snarl ups for factory staff too as they'd be less of me having to go and sit I a sealed white box with sealed windows and round the clock a/c piped in. I hate it. It's like being inside a day release prison. No window ventilation, sat in rows like battery hens.
Really interesting thread.
We employ a number of Millennials and the majority of them have are great work ethic. However, the Millennials that border on Z'ers - are whinging, self entitled idiots that think it's ok to stroll through the door at 9.30am, should be allowed flexi working and two hour lunch breaks as and when it suits.
The problem is that they think the publicised "work / life balance" careers offered by the likes of Google & Facebook entitle them to £60k per year salaries whilst working just 37.5 hours per week. Unfortunately, it's well documented that work / life balance at the aforementioned companies are just an illusion and during the working week - they pretty much own you. I don't know where this nonsensical work / life balance expectation arose from but in Silicon Valley / Tech industry it was / is very common still for beds to be installed next to desks etc
All i hear from those with a poor work ethic / unable to go above and beyond in terms of effort (and hours where needed)- is why they aren't earning more / driving a nicer car etc etc When we look to promote people within our business (or let people go) we look at a whole host of factors - but by and large, work ethic is quite seriously weighted. Those with no family commitments who are very strict 9 - 5 er's - are probably at the lower end of the desirability scale.
Working in the Tech industry is not all free lunch, Spotify and ping pong tables (as they'd have you believe)
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-working-in-sili...
We employ a number of Millennials and the majority of them have are great work ethic. However, the Millennials that border on Z'ers - are whinging, self entitled idiots that think it's ok to stroll through the door at 9.30am, should be allowed flexi working and two hour lunch breaks as and when it suits.
The problem is that they think the publicised "work / life balance" careers offered by the likes of Google & Facebook entitle them to £60k per year salaries whilst working just 37.5 hours per week. Unfortunately, it's well documented that work / life balance at the aforementioned companies are just an illusion and during the working week - they pretty much own you. I don't know where this nonsensical work / life balance expectation arose from but in Silicon Valley / Tech industry it was / is very common still for beds to be installed next to desks etc
All i hear from those with a poor work ethic / unable to go above and beyond in terms of effort (and hours where needed)- is why they aren't earning more / driving a nicer car etc etc When we look to promote people within our business (or let people go) we look at a whole host of factors - but by and large, work ethic is quite seriously weighted. Those with no family commitments who are very strict 9 - 5 er's - are probably at the lower end of the desirability scale.
Working in the Tech industry is not all free lunch, Spotify and ping pong tables (as they'd have you believe)
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-working-in-sili...
Edited by Candellara on Tuesday 20th June 10:14
Candellara said:
Working in the Tech industry is not all free lunch, Spotify and ping pong tables (as they'd have you believe)
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-working-in-sili...
That is disturbing.http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-working-in-sili...
TameRacingDriver said:
Candellara said:
Working in the Tech industry is not all free lunch, Spotify and ping pong tables (as they'd have you believe)
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-working-in-sili...
That is disturbing.http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-working-in-sili...
RDMcG said:
I do think that things are much tougher than when I was young..graduated fro university in 1970 and there was a growing world with a lot of optimism. I had choices of jobs. Proper pensions were the norm, health care was more accessible. job changes were far fewer, and housing was relatively affordable. No rose coloured glasses.
Today, the millenneais face the deterioration of social services, housing they cannot afford, deteriorated pensions, low job security, constant erosion of the formerly middle class jobs due more to automation that export, and a fully globalized economy. They also face the massively ageing population of their predecessors who are disobliging healthy but who will consume most of their assets as they age and need medical care.
Yes there are silly issues of self entitlement, but underlying this is a very serious issue about being able to be self sufficient and independent. I have some sympathy.
The ideal way to approach that is definitely by getting a worthless degree, avoiding hard work and flopping about whinging about everything while taking advice on almost everything from vacuous "celebrities" then...I can see that. NOT! Oh, and let's not forget self interest and absorption to narcissistic levels.Today, the millenneais face the deterioration of social services, housing they cannot afford, deteriorated pensions, low job security, constant erosion of the formerly middle class jobs due more to automation that export, and a fully globalized economy. They also face the massively ageing population of their predecessors who are disobliging healthy but who will consume most of their assets as they age and need medical care.
Yes there are silly issues of self entitlement, but underlying this is a very serious issue about being able to be self sufficient and independent. I have some sympathy.
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