Plumber invoicing for non completed work
Discussion
Looking for a bit of advice on the situation above. To layout the situation.
- On Thursday my Mum finds a radiator in her property has airlocked / isn't heating up correctly so goes to bleed it. She finds that the bleed valve has been sheered off (by the looks of it by a previous contractor a couple of years ago when he bled the radiator as part of another job
), and as a result there isn't enough of the valve left to loosen to bleed the radiator.
- As a result of the above she contacts a local plumbing outfit (relatively big & well known locally / approved by local council as they do a lot of their contracts / approved by Trading Standards, etc / lots of apparently good feedback based on their adverts) and asks them if they'd be able to take a look.
- Admin girl for the company asks (as a matter of urgency) for photos to be emailed over of the bleed valve / damage to see if they can drill it out, bleed the radiator and then put in a new valve in it's place.
- I get a call from my mum, go to the house, take a couple of high quality phone pictures including zoomed in, and email them over as requested.
- Plumbing company reply to my mum 30 mins later, saying both their managers in the office say it can definitely be fixed and would cost around £60 to do so - mum wants it sorted so says this is fine and plumbing company say someone will attend later on Thursday afternoon to do the work.
- Thursday passes, no contact received and no-one arrives so mum decides to chase up Friday morning. Company apologises, evidently they "forgot" to request someone do the work and that it will definitely be done on Friday morning. No-one arrives, mum chases, told it would now be mid afternoon - she calls me and asks me to come over in the afternoon as by now she's concerned over how the job's progressing.
- Circa 4PM Friday, very nice bloke arrives to do the job, but unsurprisingly has no job sheet or paperwork because he's only been told by the office to call round and look at a radiator. I direct him to the radiator in question, he takes one look at the bleed valve and makes it clear that there's no way that it's repairable and that the girls / managers in the office, who said that it was, should never have even agreed to send someone out as any pictures that would have been sent originally would have made it clear it wasn't possible.
- Plumber also advises that as no repair work can be carried out, all he would do is take measurements and ask for the office to provide a free estimate (as per the company T&C's) for the fitment of a replacement radiator. He made it clear that as it wasn't possible to undertake any repair work whatsoever, no charge would be made. He calls into his office to advise he cant do the job they've requested.
- After about 10 minutes in the house, confirming radiator measurements, he leaves and admin girl for the plumbers calls my mum and tells her they'll be in touch with her directly at some point on Monday to provide an estimate / quote for radiator replacement if she wants to go down that route.
- Forward to today (Monday) and i check with my mum how things are going and it turns out she hasn't heard anything
Just incase, knowing that said company have got my email address, I get home this evening and decide to check my inbox and lo & behold at circa 9AM today I've been sent 2 emails.
- First email is an INVOICE raised in MY NAME for a total of £90, payable within 7 days for "attempt to drill out & repair / replace bleed valve on radiator. Unable to repair - estimate for radiator replacement to follow".
- Second email is the ESTIMATE, again raised in MY NAME, for the radiator replacement work just short of £300 all in and asking me to pay a 50% deposit towards the total bill to cover the purchase of a brand new radiator / ancillaries as these are apparently special order / non returnable / non refundable - not sure why as it's a generic single 900mmx600mm radiator which appear to be available via B&Q, etc, for less than they're quoting and are certainly not "made to order", etc.
Now, firstly, it would appear they've decided to invoice everything in my name, as they've obviously just copied my details from the signature on my email due to the pictures i sent them, rather than dealing my mum who actually contacted them to start with. Is this because they're hoping i'm either not going to check with her and just give them £££ without checking what work they did (or in this case didn't do) or even getting other quotes?
Secondly, they've not only invoiced for work that was never undertaken, as if they had attempted to drill out / remove the bleed valve the radiator would have been unusable and the radiator is still in exactly the same condition it was when I first took photos on Thursday, but they've also invoiced for £90 rather than "around £60" as they quoted originally.
So on he basis of the above, am I within my rights to refuse to pay their speculative £90 invoice, as well as tell my mum to do the same if they attempt to rebill in her name, as the chap that arrived wasn't able to undertake a repair, he made it clear that a repair was never going to be possible and that he shouldn't have even been sent, based on the information / pictures that had been made available to the office in the first place.
Note - I will obviously be calling the company tomorrow morning to discuss this with them, but just wanted some confirmation on my (and / or my mums) rights regarding refusing payment of their invoice as to me it's highly speculative invoicing for work that WASNT undertaken and even having the nerve to also attach a quote for further work (which requires a 50% deposit)
At this stage there's no way i'm going to let my mum use them based on their actions to date being less than impressive, and their rather suspect speculative invoicing.
TL:DR - i'm being invoiced £90 for plumbing work at my mums house that has not been undertaken and would like some advice on this.
CheeRS
Edit - i'm not a powerfully built company director, the office of the plumber only has a tarmac car park so I cant bury any sausages, I don't drink Red Bull so have no cans to throw, and i'm not sure if dominating the car park will help
- On Thursday my Mum finds a radiator in her property has airlocked / isn't heating up correctly so goes to bleed it. She finds that the bleed valve has been sheered off (by the looks of it by a previous contractor a couple of years ago when he bled the radiator as part of another job
), and as a result there isn't enough of the valve left to loosen to bleed the radiator.- As a result of the above she contacts a local plumbing outfit (relatively big & well known locally / approved by local council as they do a lot of their contracts / approved by Trading Standards, etc / lots of apparently good feedback based on their adverts) and asks them if they'd be able to take a look.
- Admin girl for the company asks (as a matter of urgency) for photos to be emailed over of the bleed valve / damage to see if they can drill it out, bleed the radiator and then put in a new valve in it's place.
- I get a call from my mum, go to the house, take a couple of high quality phone pictures including zoomed in, and email them over as requested.
- Plumbing company reply to my mum 30 mins later, saying both their managers in the office say it can definitely be fixed and would cost around £60 to do so - mum wants it sorted so says this is fine and plumbing company say someone will attend later on Thursday afternoon to do the work.
- Thursday passes, no contact received and no-one arrives so mum decides to chase up Friday morning. Company apologises, evidently they "forgot" to request someone do the work and that it will definitely be done on Friday morning. No-one arrives, mum chases, told it would now be mid afternoon - she calls me and asks me to come over in the afternoon as by now she's concerned over how the job's progressing.
- Circa 4PM Friday, very nice bloke arrives to do the job, but unsurprisingly has no job sheet or paperwork because he's only been told by the office to call round and look at a radiator. I direct him to the radiator in question, he takes one look at the bleed valve and makes it clear that there's no way that it's repairable and that the girls / managers in the office, who said that it was, should never have even agreed to send someone out as any pictures that would have been sent originally would have made it clear it wasn't possible.
- Plumber also advises that as no repair work can be carried out, all he would do is take measurements and ask for the office to provide a free estimate (as per the company T&C's) for the fitment of a replacement radiator. He made it clear that as it wasn't possible to undertake any repair work whatsoever, no charge would be made. He calls into his office to advise he cant do the job they've requested.
- After about 10 minutes in the house, confirming radiator measurements, he leaves and admin girl for the plumbers calls my mum and tells her they'll be in touch with her directly at some point on Monday to provide an estimate / quote for radiator replacement if she wants to go down that route.
- Forward to today (Monday) and i check with my mum how things are going and it turns out she hasn't heard anything
Just incase, knowing that said company have got my email address, I get home this evening and decide to check my inbox and lo & behold at circa 9AM today I've been sent 2 emails.- First email is an INVOICE raised in MY NAME for a total of £90, payable within 7 days for "attempt to drill out & repair / replace bleed valve on radiator. Unable to repair - estimate for radiator replacement to follow".
- Second email is the ESTIMATE, again raised in MY NAME, for the radiator replacement work just short of £300 all in and asking me to pay a 50% deposit towards the total bill to cover the purchase of a brand new radiator / ancillaries as these are apparently special order / non returnable / non refundable - not sure why as it's a generic single 900mmx600mm radiator which appear to be available via B&Q, etc, for less than they're quoting and are certainly not "made to order", etc.
Now, firstly, it would appear they've decided to invoice everything in my name, as they've obviously just copied my details from the signature on my email due to the pictures i sent them, rather than dealing my mum who actually contacted them to start with. Is this because they're hoping i'm either not going to check with her and just give them £££ without checking what work they did (or in this case didn't do) or even getting other quotes?
Secondly, they've not only invoiced for work that was never undertaken, as if they had attempted to drill out / remove the bleed valve the radiator would have been unusable and the radiator is still in exactly the same condition it was when I first took photos on Thursday, but they've also invoiced for £90 rather than "around £60" as they quoted originally.
So on he basis of the above, am I within my rights to refuse to pay their speculative £90 invoice, as well as tell my mum to do the same if they attempt to rebill in her name, as the chap that arrived wasn't able to undertake a repair, he made it clear that a repair was never going to be possible and that he shouldn't have even been sent, based on the information / pictures that had been made available to the office in the first place.
Note - I will obviously be calling the company tomorrow morning to discuss this with them, but just wanted some confirmation on my (and / or my mums) rights regarding refusing payment of their invoice as to me it's highly speculative invoicing for work that WASNT undertaken and even having the nerve to also attach a quote for further work (which requires a 50% deposit)
At this stage there's no way i'm going to let my mum use them based on their actions to date being less than impressive, and their rather suspect speculative invoicing.
TL:DR - i'm being invoiced £90 for plumbing work at my mums house that has not been undertaken and would like some advice on this.
CheeRS
Edit - i'm not a powerfully built company director, the office of the plumber only has a tarmac car park so I cant bury any sausages, I don't drink Red Bull so have no cans to throw, and i'm not sure if dominating the car park will help
AlexRS2782 said:
- Plumber also advises that as no repair work can be carried out, all he would do is take measurements and ask for the office to provide a free estimate (as per the company T&C's) for the fitment of a replacement radiator. He made it clear that as it wasn't possible to undertake any repair work whatsoever, no charge would be made. He calls into his office to advise he cant do the job they've requested
Tell them this! if they were half way competent they would have told your mum that no repair was possible, so the guy who came out really just to do a (free) estiamteAlexRS2782 said:
plumbing company say someone will attend later on Thursday afternoon to do the work.
- Thursday passes, no contact received and no-one arrives so mum decides to chase up Friday morning.
This is where you went wrong.- Thursday passes, no contact received and no-one arrives so mum decides to chase up Friday morning.
Had similar recently for a boiler service. Was feeling particularly generous and gave them two phone calls whilst waiting (only as I had a text confirming chap was on his way).
When he turned up 2.5 hrs late he was told to go away.
Booked elsewhere. This process will repeat itself until somebody organised and trustworthy turns up at the time they say they will.
Ta for the replies so far - my intention is definitely refusal to pay based on the fact no work was completed.
The most annoying part of this is that had my mum called me first i'd have just booked the job in with a guy I've used before who's been recommended by quite a few PH'ers in the Thames Valley & Surrey subforum. I spoke to him earlier and he's agreed to pop over on Wednesday to take a look and will probably be able to get the radiator replaced the same day, with no need for "special order" radiators, etc. Not sure how the other company have made this so difficult unless they saw this as an easy way to make some £££ off my mum?
Anyway, I had a look at the website for the company my mum dealt with a little earlier and that gives the impression the majority of their ££££ comes from existing business / trade contracts as well as council & landlord maintenance contracts, so the private side of things (like my mums job) are probably just filler on top. A google search also suggests they seem to have an above average staff turnover due to disagreements between management / admin.
Not impressed Really wish i'd been able to sort this from the off
The most annoying part of this is that had my mum called me first i'd have just booked the job in with a guy I've used before who's been recommended by quite a few PH'ers in the Thames Valley & Surrey subforum. I spoke to him earlier and he's agreed to pop over on Wednesday to take a look and will probably be able to get the radiator replaced the same day, with no need for "special order" radiators, etc. Not sure how the other company have made this so difficult unless they saw this as an easy way to make some £££ off my mum?
Anyway, I had a look at the website for the company my mum dealt with a little earlier and that gives the impression the majority of their ££££ comes from existing business / trade contracts as well as council & landlord maintenance contracts, so the private side of things (like my mums job) are probably just filler on top. A google search also suggests they seem to have an above average staff turnover due to disagreements between management / admin.
Not impressed
Really wish i'd been able to sort this from the off Saleen836 said:
Why are they quoting for a replacement radiator?
At best it's a simple drain down of either system or single radiator then replace the bleed valve, unless of course the bleed screw is integral to the radiator?
can you post a photo?
I haven't got the photos to hand as they're on my notebook, but it's an original radiator from when the house was built new in '98, but as with all the others in the house it's still working fine (well until the airlock At best it's a simple drain down of either system or single radiator then replace the bleed valve, unless of course the bleed screw is integral to the radiator?
can you post a photo?
), no exterior corrosion, etc Basically the bleed valve at the top of the radiator has been snapped off (appears to have been done a couple of years ago by a previous company my mum used who didn't admit to it
) to the extent there's not enough left of the metal that was the bleed valve to get any purchase to free it off and it also cant be drilled out / replaced as a result.Basically the company had originally quoted to do as you've described, further to the pictures I sent them, but the guy who came out said they should never have agreed to it as in his opinion it clearly wasn't repairable. When I was there on the day his opinion was that if he attempted the fix, it would fail and my mum would obviously be charged for that and I assume that would include isolating the radiator from the rest of the system or at worst leaving the heating not working. She would then also have to pay for the radiator replacement on top of that.
My understanding is that as no repair was possible, it would mean my mum wouldn't be charged as he'd only be taking measurements for the radiator replacement estimate (which was free based on the company's T&C's) - although obviously not based on the £90 invoice I've since been sent
Edited to better clarify the last paragraph(s).
Edited by AlexRS2782 on Monday 19th February 23:03
You/your mum owe them nothing. They asked for pictures of the issue and after seeing them, told you/your mum that it could be definitely be fixed. As a result of that they were asked to carry out the job.
You should put it to them that the were only engaged because they said in certain terms that they could fix it. In legal terms, that means that you/your mum relied on their representation and, since it turned out to be false, you/your mum (as applicable) are entitled to rescind the contract that formed (i.e. treat it as if it never existed).
Alternatively just tell them to p
s off
You should put it to them that the were only engaged because they said in certain terms that they could fix it. In legal terms, that means that you/your mum relied on their representation and, since it turned out to be false, you/your mum (as applicable) are entitled to rescind the contract that formed (i.e. treat it as if it never existed).
Alternatively just tell them to p
s off It sounds like they just have someone that’s useless and doesn’t listen in the office rather than any malice.
Personally I’d just phone them and say ‘you’ve made a mistake’ and escalate it to their manager if they argue the toss before investigating the depths of the legal framework surrounding plumbing invoicing
Personally I’d just phone them and say ‘you’ve made a mistake’ and escalate it to their manager if they argue the toss before investigating the depths of the legal framework surrounding plumbing invoicing
Unsurprisingly my phone call this morning was treated with the expected admin "paperwork says xxx work was attempted & failed - you must pay" - I've now taken a couple more photos (with time / date stamp / metadata) that proves any work cant have been done as the radiator is still in the same condition as the last photos.
Also asked them to explain how one of their own plumbers / people in the office said the work could be done / attempted, when the guy who arrived said it clearly couldn't and they should never have agreed to it in the first place. Their response - "the pictures you sent obviously weren't clear enough for us to make an accurate determination"
Eventually reached the "you'll need to speak to a manager" stage, who as it turned out just happens not to be available today or possibly tomorrow and i'll be "called back when he's free". Not sure I've heard that one before - I mean having been involved in customer service related roles for a number of different industries since the age of 20 (from bottom of the rung sod that gets shouted at, to managing the serious issues that others cant resolve before it goes further) I can definitely say with confidence I've never heard that reasoning before
Edit due to fat fingers on the keyboard.
Also asked them to explain how one of their own plumbers / people in the office said the work could be done / attempted, when the guy who arrived said it clearly couldn't and they should never have agreed to it in the first place. Their response - "the pictures you sent obviously weren't clear enough for us to make an accurate determination"
Eventually reached the "you'll need to speak to a manager" stage, who as it turned out just happens not to be available today or possibly tomorrow and i'll be "called back when he's free". Not sure I've heard that one before - I mean having been involved in customer service related roles for a number of different industries since the age of 20 (from bottom of the rung sod that gets shouted at, to managing the serious issues that others cant resolve before it goes further) I can definitely say with confidence I've never heard that reasoning before
Edit due to fat fingers on the keyboard.
Edited by AlexRS2782 on Tuesday 20th February 13:31
AlexRS2782 said:
Eventually reached the "you'll need to speak to a manager" stage, who as it turned out just happens not to be unavailable today or possibly tomorrow and i'll be "called back when he's free". Not sure I've heard that one before - I mean having been involved in customer service related roles for a number of different industries since the age of 20 (from bottom of the rung sod that gets shouted at, to managing the serious issues that others cant resolve before it goes further) I can definitely say with confidence I've never heard that reasoning before
I hadn't realised Pendragon had gone into the plumbing business!AlexRS2782 said:
Eventually reached the "you'll need to speak to a manager" stage, who as it turned out just happens not to be available today or possibly tomorrow and i'll be "called back when he's free". Not sure I've heard that one before - I mean having been involved in customer service related roles for a number of different industries since the age of 20 (from bottom of the rung sod that gets shouted at, to managing the serious issues that others cant resolve before it goes further) I can definitely say with confidence I've never heard that reasoning before
This is a good thing, surely, bearing in mind they are chasing payment from you and are basically stalling themselves?AlexRS2782 said:
Basically the bleed valve at the top of the radiator has been snapped off (appears to have been done a couple of years ago by a previous company my mum used who didn't admit to it ) to the extent there's not enough left of the metal that was the bleed valve to get any purchase to free it off and it also cant be drilled out / replaced as a result.
I take it the nip isn't in a screw-in fixing to a one-on-each-corner fitment...? If it is, then surely ten minutes with a spanner and some PTFE, and you've replaced it? ) to the extent there's not enough left of the metal that was the bleed valve to get any purchase to free it off and it also cant be drilled out / replaced as a result.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321870102521
To bring this to a close (and we all like closure).
Just received a very quick & curt call from one of the admins from said company in question saying that the previously unavailable manager had reviewed my complaint. Funny that as I didn't think he was available
Anyway as a "gesture of goodwill" the manager has evidently agreed to cancel the invoice. I tried not to chuckle at the gesture of goodwill part as I know full well from my own experience how that term is twisted from it's original intention, by senior management, to quietly admit fault whilst not actually admitting it
Sadly no apologies or explanation on what's happened to date, poor communication, why I was invoiced, etc However I was told that the guy who attended should have, apparently, attempted the fix because the office manager said, in his opinion, it was fixable. I pointed out I was glad that he didn't and it was nice to see that, unlike some, he'd actually been decent and honest enough to say it wasn't fixable so as not to cause further issues with the heating for my mum over the weekend, but also meaning she wouldn't be charged as no work was carried out. Company had no response to this, other than to reiterate the invoice would be cancelled before ending the call
On the positive side, i'm confident it will be sorted tomorrow by the chap I've used before
Just received a very quick & curt call from one of the admins from said company in question saying that the previously unavailable manager had reviewed my complaint. Funny that as I didn't think he was available
Anyway as a "gesture of goodwill" the manager has evidently agreed to cancel the invoice. I tried not to chuckle at the gesture of goodwill part as I know full well from my own experience how that term is twisted from it's original intention, by senior management, to quietly admit fault whilst not actually admitting it Sadly no apologies or explanation on what's happened to date, poor communication, why I was invoiced, etc
However I was told that the guy who attended should have, apparently, attempted the fix because the office manager said, in his opinion, it was fixable. I pointed out I was glad that he didn't and it was nice to see that, unlike some, he'd actually been decent and honest enough to say it wasn't fixable so as not to cause further issues with the heating for my mum over the weekend, but also meaning she wouldn't be charged as no work was carried out. Company had no response to this, other than to reiterate the invoice would be cancelled before ending the call On the positive side, i'm confident it will be sorted tomorrow by the chap I've used before
I have no idea what the legal stance on this would be, but I sure as hell wouldn't pay! Don't get me wrong, if the plumber had come out and tried to fix it but couldn't, I wouldn't want to pay an invoice but it's not that unreasonable to get billed for somebody to turn up and spend time and effort on it and then giving up.
My issue here would be the fact that the office were wrong, it couldn't definitely be fixed so sent him out in error and he spent no effort on it. Not only this, but they gave an indicative quote for definitely being able to fix it was £60 yet they then go and invoice you £90 for not even touching it let alone not fixing it! That's a bit rude if you ask me!!
Based on this, I wouldn't pay and I think it's unreasonable in this case for them to invoice for it.
I'm far from skilled when it comes to plumbing but fit a new a new rad the other day. It took me about 2 hours in total and most of that was me faffing around emptying the old one trying not to make any mess as I didn't want to damage the floor. Somebody who knew what they were doing and confident would have it done by the time a cup of tea had cooled down enough to drink.
My issue here would be the fact that the office were wrong, it couldn't definitely be fixed so sent him out in error and he spent no effort on it. Not only this, but they gave an indicative quote for definitely being able to fix it was £60 yet they then go and invoice you £90 for not even touching it let alone not fixing it! That's a bit rude if you ask me!!
Based on this, I wouldn't pay and I think it's unreasonable in this case for them to invoice for it.
I'm far from skilled when it comes to plumbing but fit a new a new rad the other day. It took me about 2 hours in total and most of that was me faffing around emptying the old one trying not to make any mess as I didn't want to damage the floor. Somebody who knew what they were doing and confident would have it done by the time a cup of tea had cooled down enough to drink.
Checked my email and it turns out I've now received an email containing a credit note / invoice cancellation. I'm not quite sure that the left & right areas of the brain / office are synced up tbh
Written in the credit note description:
- Asked by customer to attempt bleed valve repair / replacement (pictures supplied).
- Technician attended - confirmed no fix is possible and no chargeable work undertaken.
- Measurements of existing radiator supplied - raise estimate for supply & fit of equivalent replacement.
Note - due to no remedial work undertaken - raise as a nil value labour invoice (for internal reference / job no. only).
Then, underneath:
"Goodwill gesture for customer relations - cancel previous invoice for repair / replacement work carried out. Customer refused to pay for the work competed by technician and disputed invoice".
Now, I don't think someone was meant to copy & paste the first batch of text over, from whichever document they were last working on. It clearly shows someone's messed up in their admin and the only invoice raised should have been at zero value, for their internal references only, so not sure why they've billed me instead. I'm also fairly sure "gesture of goodwill" has been used incorrectly there too
Why can't people just admit they've messed up and apologise anymore?
Written in the credit note description:
- Asked by customer to attempt bleed valve repair / replacement (pictures supplied).
- Technician attended - confirmed no fix is possible and no chargeable work undertaken.
- Measurements of existing radiator supplied - raise estimate for supply & fit of equivalent replacement.
Note - due to no remedial work undertaken - raise as a nil value labour invoice (for internal reference / job no. only).
Then, underneath:
"Goodwill gesture for customer relations - cancel previous invoice for repair / replacement work carried out. Customer refused to pay for the work competed by technician and disputed invoice".
Now, I don't think someone was meant to copy & paste the first batch of text over, from whichever document they were last working on. It clearly shows someone's messed up in their admin and the only invoice raised should have been at zero value, for their internal references only, so not sure why they've billed me instead. I'm also fairly sure "gesture of goodwill" has been used incorrectly there too
Why can't people just admit they've messed up and apologise anymore?
Edited by AlexRS2782 on Tuesday 20th February 18:35
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff