The eleven plus - getting into grammar school?
Discussion
Seriously if your child needs tutoring to get in to a grammar school then they should not be there.
They are exam factories. Not a happy childhood for many children who attend them.
In my opinion they are only concerned with exam results. Not the individual child.
Just my opinion.
My Son goes to one of the very best grammar schools. I object to them but it’s not just my decision.
They are exam factories. Not a happy childhood for many children who attend them.
In my opinion they are only concerned with exam results. Not the individual child.
Just my opinion.
My Son goes to one of the very best grammar schools. I object to them but it’s not just my decision.
lrdisco said:
Seriously if your child needs tutoring to get in to a grammar school then they should not be there.
They are exam factories. Not a happy childhood for many children who attend them.
In my opinion they are only concerned with exam results. Not the individual child.
Just my opinion.
My Son goes to one of the very best grammar schools. I object to them but it’s not just my decision.
I understand the principle of what you say but the reality is very different. It may be different county by county but where I am there is a huge effort made by parents to get their kids through the 11+ and into the grammar system, largely because the alternative is very poor. There are private options but out of reach for many. I honestly don’t know a single pupil or child of a friend who went to the grammar school who didn’t have tutoring. Ultimately all kids are in the same boat and it has become the norm. They are exam factories. Not a happy childhood for many children who attend them.
In my opinion they are only concerned with exam results. Not the individual child.
Just my opinion.
My Son goes to one of the very best grammar schools. I object to them but it’s not just my decision.
Thanks, some interesting replies, raised some things that I'd never thought of myself.
Yes, daughter is pretty well at the top of her class in most subjects, going by recent parents evening. She is also one of the youngest in the year (August birthday). Although this year they have split the classes (it's a small school, not enough class rooms/teachers/kids), so the younger half of year 5 (inc my daughter) is in with the older half of year 4, the older half of year 5 is in with year 6. Daughter has already commented that they're recovering some of the same things she did last year in yr 4. I mentioned this at parents evening, but the teacher assured us they are covering the same material as the class above.
My understanding is that the stuff in the 11+ does not directly relate to what kids are taught in state primary schools anyway. It's not necessarily harder/higher level, just isn't tied in with the curriculum, so extra tuition of some sort is essential. If it's anything like when I was at school (20 odd years ago) we were basically taught/coached to pass exams to a great extent. Working through past papers it was pretty obvious the types of questions that came up year on year with slight variations. Sounds like the 11+ is somewhat similar in that respect.
I definitely think she has the right attitude to cope with grammar school and the high workload. She is highly self motivated, even to the extent of making up her own homework when she's done all the stuff that the teacher has set her!
Yes, daughter is pretty well at the top of her class in most subjects, going by recent parents evening. She is also one of the youngest in the year (August birthday). Although this year they have split the classes (it's a small school, not enough class rooms/teachers/kids), so the younger half of year 5 (inc my daughter) is in with the older half of year 4, the older half of year 5 is in with year 6. Daughter has already commented that they're recovering some of the same things she did last year in yr 4. I mentioned this at parents evening, but the teacher assured us they are covering the same material as the class above.
My understanding is that the stuff in the 11+ does not directly relate to what kids are taught in state primary schools anyway. It's not necessarily harder/higher level, just isn't tied in with the curriculum, so extra tuition of some sort is essential. If it's anything like when I was at school (20 odd years ago) we were basically taught/coached to pass exams to a great extent. Working through past papers it was pretty obvious the types of questions that came up year on year with slight variations. Sounds like the 11+ is somewhat similar in that respect.
I definitely think she has the right attitude to cope with grammar school and the high workload. She is highly self motivated, even to the extent of making up her own homework when she's done all the stuff that the teacher has set her!
mjb1 said:
. Daughter has already commented that they're recovering some of the same things she did last year in yr 4. I mentioned this at parents evening, but the teacher assured us they are covering the same material as the class above.
!
In this instance I'd believe your daughter rather than the teacher. Plus I'd be kicking off to get her into the other class as it's inevitable they will be covering more advanced stuff.!
lrdisco said:
They are exam factories. Not a happy childhood for many children who attend them.
In my opinion they are only concerned with exam results. Not the individual child.
Just my opinion.
My Son goes to one of the very best grammar schools. I object to them but it’s not just my decision.
It's a shame you feel that way, but as you say it's your opinion. The grammar school my son goes to has excellent pastoral care and is a long way from being an "exam factory". All the pupils I have met are confident, well rounded young people from all kinds of backgrounds. That was our stand out "thing" from the open day. Good luck to your son. I hope he is enjoying his school.In my opinion they are only concerned with exam results. Not the individual child.
Just my opinion.
My Son goes to one of the very best grammar schools. I object to them but it’s not just my decision.
RicksAlfas said:
lrdisco said:
They are exam factories. Not a happy childhood for many children who attend them.
In my opinion they are only concerned with exam results. Not the individual child.
Just my opinion.
My Son goes to one of the very best grammar schools. I object to them but it’s not just my decision.
It's a shame you feel that way, but as you say it's your opinion. The grammar school my son goes to has excellent pastoral care and is a long way from being an "exam factory". All the pupils I have met are confident, well rounded young people from all kinds of backgrounds. That was our stand out "thing" from the open day. Good luck to your son. I hope he is enjoying his school.In my opinion they are only concerned with exam results. Not the individual child.
Just my opinion.
My Son goes to one of the very best grammar schools. I object to them but it’s not just my decision.
In fact, id say their experience is far superior to the one I had going to a local comprehensive.
The people I know who've got kids into state grammes (and it's a small selection) started tutoring at years 4 and 5, start of year 6 is almost certainly too late.
The tutoring largely revolves around doing the IQ test type puzzles, mathematical reasoning and English comprehension. Make no mistake bright working class kids with a thirst to learn and natural curiosity for knowledge are not being served by the current system, it's a failed system that survives due to political ideology and the political pester power of the aspirational middle classes. If you've genuinely got a very bright kid and no money then touting them around the private sector for a scholarship is the best idea. (friends of mine did this to great success)
It's a complete nonsense. An anachronism that really highlights the least likeable traits of the English disease.
The tutoring largely revolves around doing the IQ test type puzzles, mathematical reasoning and English comprehension. Make no mistake bright working class kids with a thirst to learn and natural curiosity for knowledge are not being served by the current system, it's a failed system that survives due to political ideology and the political pester power of the aspirational middle classes. If you've genuinely got a very bright kid and no money then touting them around the private sector for a scholarship is the best idea. (friends of mine did this to great success)
It's a complete nonsense. An anachronism that really highlights the least likeable traits of the English disease.
selym said:
bobtail4x4 said:
can you re sit a failed 11 plus?
Am I completely off the trail with this or is there not a 12+ - an opportunity to transfer to a grammar school? I know that's not what you asked but it is probably the next best thing.The 11+ was all about verbal reasoning, MENSA type stuff that doesn't necessarily correlate with doing well at school. Some bright children might not do so well with it, other less academically minded could find it straightforward.
selym said:
bobtail4x4 said:
can you re sit a failed 11 plus?
Am I completely off the trail with this or is there not a 12+ - an opportunity to transfer to a grammar school? I know that's not what you asked but it is probably the next best thing.Three tier education used to be really common. After primary school, children would move to a Middle School for ages 8/9 to 12/13, and then either go to public school or into work/service. Secondary modern/comprehensive schools then picked up the slack as the school leaving age was increased to 15 and then 16, with middle schools falling out of favour, as primaries and 'senior' schools filled that gap.
The Common Entrance exam persists though, and plenty of children move to their (private selective) senior school after passing it at 13.
lrdisco said:
Seriously if your child needs tutoring to get in to a grammar school then they should not be there.
If you don't pay for tutoring, there's a chance that a less able kid will score higher and push yours out, because they've had tutoring, and despite perhaps being not as academic, knows better the techniques on how to present the answers to pass the exam. AstonZagato said:
I have not been through it, though we did sit a couple of our kids for entrance exams into private schools at 11, which is similar.
The first one, we assumed the school would get her ready. We didn't do anything. About three weeks before the exam, we met with some friends who have a super bright kid the same age, who was sitting for their local Grammar. They were doing an 11+ past paper most days and had been for months. We panicked and bought books of past papers as soon as they left. Our kid passed her exam. Their kid got the top mark in the 11+ in their county.
It's a bit weird that her school didn't prepare her. The common entrance exam is pretty different and is far easier than the 11+ for state grammar.The first one, we assumed the school would get her ready. We didn't do anything. About three weeks before the exam, we met with some friends who have a super bright kid the same age, who was sitting for their local Grammar. They were doing an 11+ past paper most days and had been for months. We panicked and bought books of past papers as soon as they left. Our kid passed her exam. Their kid got the top mark in the 11+ in their county.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
If you don't pay for tutoring, there's a chance that a less able kid will score higher and push yours out, because they've had tutoring, and despite perhaps being not as academic, knows better the techniques on how to present the answers to pass the exam.
A well devised exam that's properly marked by a thoughtful teacher will be able to weed out those who are "coached". The problem is that the state grammars need to be transparent and accountable in their selection process so that will lead to a very black and white process.A private school doesn't have the same accountability so can select on other features.
desolate said:
mjb1 said:
. Daughter has already commented that they're recovering some of the same things she did last year in yr 4. I mentioned this at parents evening, but the teacher assured us they are covering the same material as the class above.
!
In this instance I'd believe your daughter rather than the teacher. Plus I'd be kicking off to get her into the other class as it's inevitable they will be covering more advanced stuff.!
Sheepshanks said:
AstonZagato said:
I have not been through it, though we did sit a couple of our kids for entrance exams into private schools at 11, which is similar.
The first one, we assumed the school would get her ready. We didn't do anything. About three weeks before the exam, we met with some friends who have a super bright kid the same age, who was sitting for their local Grammar. They were doing an 11+ past paper most days and had been for months. We panicked and bought books of past papers as soon as they left. Our kid passed her exam. Their kid got the top mark in the 11+ in their county.
It's a bit weird that her school didn't prepare her. The common entrance exam is pretty different and is far easier than the 11+ for state grammar.The first one, we assumed the school would get her ready. We didn't do anything. About three weeks before the exam, we met with some friends who have a super bright kid the same age, who was sitting for their local Grammar. They were doing an 11+ past paper most days and had been for months. We panicked and bought books of past papers as soon as they left. Our kid passed her exam. Their kid got the top mark in the 11+ in their county.
The prep school didn't really want her to sit. With about two weeks to go, they told us she would fail and we should not let her sit the exam. Our response was that the only way to be sure she failed was to not sit the exam. This attitude from the school was presumably to get 2 years's more fees from us.
They did some stuff with her but really nothing substantive - the first time they sat a past paper was about a month before the exam and it freaked the scholarship candidate who'd never seen anything like it.
My daughter was middle of her classes when she got to the new school, so not anywhere near a fail.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
lrdisco said:
Seriously if your child needs tutoring to get in to a grammar school then they should not be there.
If you don't pay for tutoring, there's a chance that a less able kid will score higher and push yours out, because they've had tutoring, and despite perhaps being not as academic, knows better the techniques on how to present the answers to pass the exam. I ask, because my understanding of the tests, both from going through them personally and reading about them as an adult, is that they are essentially IQ tests designed to assess your reasoning ability rather than what you've learned and therefore tutoring for them is not as effective as it may be for a more conventional knowledge based test?
youngsyr said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
lrdisco said:
Seriously if your child needs tutoring to get in to a grammar school then they should not be there.
If you don't pay for tutoring, there's a chance that a less able kid will score higher and push yours out, because they've had tutoring, and despite perhaps being not as academic, knows better the techniques on how to present the answers to pass the exam. I ask, because my understanding of the tests, both from going through them personally and reading about them as an adult, is that they are essentially IQ tests designed to assess your reasoning ability rather than what you've learned and therefore tutoring for them is not as effective as it may be for a more conventional knowledge based test?
Also my mother in law is thick as mince but does the daily crossword and the cryptic ones which leave me in fits of apathy.
Intelligence is just the applied application of knowledge and technique. If I ever go to hospital for a surgery, I want the guy whose done it 1000 times not last years hot shot graduate.
There's plenty of commentary and media stuff out there on the 11+ tutoring take your pick to suit your chosen bias. The Telegraph articles will tell you its money well spent (an investment) the guardian articles will tell you it's an unfair systematic advantage. Either way they both assume the tutoring works.
youngsyr said:
Have there been any studies that show that tutoring is actually effective for the 11+ exam?
I ask, because my understanding of the tests, both from going through them personally and reading about them as an adult, is that they are essentially IQ tests designed to assess your reasoning ability rather than what you've learned and therefore tutoring for them is not as effective as it may be for a more conventional knowledge based test?
The tutoring is the technique in answering the papers. Most 10/11 year olds will not have seen such a paper before. The tutoring is so they know what to expect. The exams are quite short timewise, so the pupil does not want to waste time working out what on earth they are looking at. The same can be achieved by contacting the grammar school and asking for past papers and they can be practised at home.I ask, because my understanding of the tests, both from going through them personally and reading about them as an adult, is that they are essentially IQ tests designed to assess your reasoning ability rather than what you've learned and therefore tutoring for them is not as effective as it may be for a more conventional knowledge based test?
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