Opting out of fatherhood
Discussion
singlecoil said:
I agree that what you have said is fair, but currently the legal situation is that only one of those parties has a choice in how it is to be dealt with. That is the bit that isn't fair.
That is a function of biology. I take it that in the interests of fairness you are also ok with the woman being able to abdicate her responsibility, leaving the father a single parent with no financial support?
I've long thought the status quo is grotesquely unfair and that a system as proposed in the OP link should be implemented.
However:
Human nature means that women will in general have children, by fair means or foul and regardless of whether they can support them or not. It also means that younger men generally don't want children. It is also generally accepted that you cannot work full time and raise small children as a single parent. If we assume that a large portion of men decline their parental status but the women go ahead and have the children anyway (which they will) the options are therefore:
A: Most children grow up in extreme poverty.
B: The state pays (i.e. the taxpayer, including all men who have or haven't fathered any children).
C: The father pays whether he wanted the child or not.
The status quo is mostly C with a bit of B (and sometimes some A too).
Option A probably isn't great for the development of the children and consequently how most adults turn out. Option B is arguably more unfair than option C as even those that did successfully bag it up, pull it out or not get in there in the first place end up paying. The only solution that would truly be fair is if a 100% effective reversible male contraceptive with no side effects is created (which would be fantastic).
A couple of other reasons why it'll never happen:
However:
Human nature means that women will in general have children, by fair means or foul and regardless of whether they can support them or not. It also means that younger men generally don't want children. It is also generally accepted that you cannot work full time and raise small children as a single parent. If we assume that a large portion of men decline their parental status but the women go ahead and have the children anyway (which they will) the options are therefore:
A: Most children grow up in extreme poverty.
B: The state pays (i.e. the taxpayer, including all men who have or haven't fathered any children).
C: The father pays whether he wanted the child or not.
The status quo is mostly C with a bit of B (and sometimes some A too).
Option A probably isn't great for the development of the children and consequently how most adults turn out. Option B is arguably more unfair than option C as even those that did successfully bag it up, pull it out or not get in there in the first place end up paying. The only solution that would truly be fair is if a 100% effective reversible male contraceptive with no side effects is created (which would be fantastic).
A couple of other reasons why it'll never happen:
- Governments have vested interests in population growth despite the fact it is the single thing that will drive us to extinction fairly soon. This proposal might have a small impact on birth rates (though I doubt it).
- Feminism is extremely politically fashionable at the moment but most vocal 'feminists' are only pro-equality where it gains women advantage, you won't find many volunteering to go down the coal mines, be last off the titanic or support this proposal.
gregs656 said:
I take it that in the interests of fairness you are also ok with the woman being able to abdicate her responsibility, leaving the father a single parent with no financial support?
How would that happen in this scenario?If after conception the man decides he doesn't want it and then woman decides to have it, she wouldn't be able to abdicate responsibility. She wanted it, she's got it.
If after conception the man decides he does want it and the woman decides to have it then I imagine the father would be happy to look after the child. He wanted it, he's got it.
If after conception they both decide they want it, there's no problem.
If after conception they both decided they don't want it, there's no problem.
I imagine it's thought that these decisions would be made in the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.
Rawwr said:
gregs656 said:
I take it that in the interests of fairness you are also ok with the woman being able to abdicate her responsibility, leaving the father a single parent with no financial support?
How would that happen in this scenario?If after conception the man decides he doesn't want it and then woman decides to have it, she wouldn't be able to abdicate responsibility. She wanted it, she's got it.
If after conception the man decides he does want it and the woman decides to have it then I imagine the father would be happy to look after the child. He wanted it, he's got it.
If after conception they both decide they want it, there's no problem.
If after conception they both decided they don't want it, there's no problem.
I imagine it's thought that these decisions would be made in the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.
Haven't read the whole thing, but isn't this what Tom Jones has done with one of his offspring
"Sir Tom Jones refuses to reach out to homeless son because he was 'tricked' by the boy's mother"
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/s...
Quality guy, Sir Tom
"Sir Tom Jones refuses to reach out to homeless son because he was 'tricked' by the boy's mother"
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/s...
Quality guy, Sir Tom
Rawwr said:
How would that happen in this scenario?
If after conception the man decides he doesn't want it and then woman decides to have it, she wouldn't be able to abdicate responsibility. She wanted it, she's got it.
Not wanting an abortion is not the same as wanting a child. If after conception the man decides he doesn't want it and then woman decides to have it, she wouldn't be able to abdicate responsibility. She wanted it, she's got it.
If men can opt out, why not women too?
Very telling that it is too much to ask of men to take control of contraception, but abortion is being treated as a trivial decision here.
desolate said:
singlecoil said:
Are we discussing such situations, though? You may be, but I'm not. I'm talking about responsible people.
You said that the process of having a child is "manifestly unfair".A man is in total control of whether he becomes a father or not.
Antony Moxey said:
desolate said:
singlecoil said:
Are we discussing such situations, though? You may be, but I'm not. I'm talking about responsible people.
You said that the process of having a child is "manifestly unfair".A man is in total control of whether he becomes a father or not.
gregs656 said:
Not wanting an abortion is not the same as wanting a child.
If men can opt out, why not women too?
Very telling that it is too much to ask of men to take control of contraception, but abortion is being treated as a trivial decision here.
Quite.If men can opt out, why not women too?
Very telling that it is too much to ask of men to take control of contraception, but abortion is being treated as a trivial decision here.
You can't treat the parties equally because they aren't both subject to the huge amount of physical/psychological/emotional upheaval that one of them will experience if the pregnancy goes ahead or even if it is aborted.
Cotty said:
Antony Moxey said:
desolate said:
singlecoil said:
Are we discussing such situations, though? You may be, but I'm not. I'm talking about responsible people.
You said that the process of having a child is "manifestly unfair".A man is in total control of whether he becomes a father or not.
Rawwr said:
gregs656 said:
I take it that in the interests of fairness you are also ok with the woman being able to abdicate her responsibility, leaving the father a single parent with no financial support?
How would that happen in this scenario?If after conception the man decides he doesn't want it and then woman decides to have it, she wouldn't be able to abdicate responsibility. She wanted it, she's got it.
If after conception the man decides he does want it and the woman decides to have it then I imagine the father would be happy to look after the child. He wanted it, he's got it.
If after conception they both decide they want it, there's no problem.
If after conception they both decided they don't want it, there's no problem.
I imagine it's thought that these decisions would be made in the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.
If after conception the man decides he does want it and the woman decides want to continue the pregnancy, then she chooses an abortion and he doesn't get a say in it. I'm not saying he should have a say, I'm just pointing out that only one of the parties gets to choose.
There's no solution available to the question raised by this thread that is fair to everyone bearing in mind the biological differences.
Antony Moxey said:
If a man wants to be a father it utterly and completely down to whether the woman wants him to be or not. He has no control, say, rights or influence.
I thought this thread was talking about men not wanting to be a father. I thought the title "Opting out of fatherhood" was a bit of a giveaway.singlecoil said:
There's no solution available to the question raised by this thread that is fair to everyone bearing in mind the biological differences.
So what society looks for is the best possible outcome for the child, which means unless it is put up for adoption, both parents are obligated to financially support it to adulthood.gregs656 said:
Very telling that it is too much to ask of men to take control of contraception, but abortion is being treated as a trivial decision here.
Having a child is also being treated with the same triviality. As a gay male, my chances of getting anyone pregnant are particularly slim so I like to think I'm viewing this without any particular bias.
) and men don't know what they want generally. All of a sudden the female hey are with says 'I'm in the club' and.....Cotty said:
Antony Moxey said:
If a man wants to be a father it utterly and completely down to whether the woman wants him to be or not. He has no control, say, rights or influence.
I thought this thread was talking about men not wanting to be a father. I thought the title "Opting out of fatherhood" was a bit of a giveaway.it's not opting out of fatherhood; it's opting out of any financial responsibility to assist with rearing the kid. Whilst it sounds like a good idea in theory, anyone that actually has kids might take a different view. As much as you may hate the Mother for doing what she did, the kid is your flesh and blood and it may be difficult to just relinquish the paternal feelings associated with that.
Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff