Discussion
pavarotti1980 said:
With some notable esceptions the majority of these posts are aboslute rubbish. its like reading the comments section of the Daily Mail
Of course there is waste in the NHS. Its inevitable in such a large organisation and its also a victim of its own size as to the reason why there are so many people in the organisation doing what appears to be meaningless tasks. However those meaningless tasks are likely to be the ones which generate the cash for the hospital to operate.
The posters who say that getting rid of middle management and noticing the difference is easy. Exactly what parts fo middle management would you get rid of and why? What would be the result of them not being there and who would do the work they were doing previously?
I guess the result would not be seen at clinical level but there does seem since I came to the NHS 20 years ago more and more reporting and thus more and more managers.Of course there is waste in the NHS. Its inevitable in such a large organisation and its also a victim of its own size as to the reason why there are so many people in the organisation doing what appears to be meaningless tasks. However those meaningless tasks are likely to be the ones which generate the cash for the hospital to operate.
The posters who say that getting rid of middle management and noticing the difference is easy. Exactly what parts fo middle management would you get rid of and why? What would be the result of them not being there and who would do the work they were doing previously?
Some job titles and jobs are baffling. We have had them on various training days explaining what they do.
A lot of roles in finance are created to push money around. Not just from CCG’s to Hospitals but around departments in the hospital.
Funny too how they are always looking at moving staff from bands 4 to 3 and 3 to 2.
For this it’s a couple of hundred pounds per month, For senior managers instigating this on 70k £200 a month is nothing yet they never get re banded lower just higher.
Downward said:
I guess the result would not be seen at clinical level but there does seem since I came to the NHS 20 years ago more and more reporting and thus more and more managers.
Some job titles and jobs are baffling. We have had them on various training days explaining what they do.
A lot of roles in finance are created to push money around. Not just from CCG’s to Hospitals but around departments in the hospital.
Funny too how they are always looking at moving staff from bands 4 to 3 and 3 to 2.
For this it’s a couple of hundred pounds per month, For senior managers instigating this on 70k £200 a month is nothing yet they never get re banded lower just higher.
Do they downgrade staff often? Not that I see Some job titles and jobs are baffling. We have had them on various training days explaining what they do.
A lot of roles in finance are created to push money around. Not just from CCG’s to Hospitals but around departments in the hospital.
Funny too how they are always looking at moving staff from bands 4 to 3 and 3 to 2.
For this it’s a couple of hundred pounds per month, For senior managers instigating this on 70k £200 a month is nothing yet they never get re banded lower just higher.
pavarotti1980 said:
Downward said:
I guess the result would not be seen at clinical level but there does seem since I came to the NHS 20 years ago more and more reporting and thus more and more managers.
Some job titles and jobs are baffling. We have had them on various training days explaining what they do.
A lot of roles in finance are created to push money around. Not just from CCG’s to Hospitals but around departments in the hospital.
Funny too how they are always looking at moving staff from bands 4 to 3 and 3 to 2.
For this it’s a couple of hundred pounds per month, For senior managers instigating this on 70k £200 a month is nothing yet they never get re banded lower just higher.
Do they downgrade staff often? Not that I see Some job titles and jobs are baffling. We have had them on various training days explaining what they do.
A lot of roles in finance are created to push money around. Not just from CCG’s to Hospitals but around departments in the hospital.
Funny too how they are always looking at moving staff from bands 4 to 3 and 3 to 2.
For this it’s a couple of hundred pounds per month, For senior managers instigating this on 70k £200 a month is nothing yet they never get re banded lower just higher.
Pay gets protected for 4 years but obviously new staff are coming in.
Or another way they do it is to set up a LTD company and as staff leave the jobs replacing are on a lower band.
Downward said:
It’s called a re structure on different bands. I’ve seen it in our department, Jobs were re banded lower.
Pay gets protected for 4 years but obviously new staff are coming in.
Or another way they do it is to set up a LTD company and as staff leave the jobs replacing are on a lower band.
It seems that they must have been banded incorrectly in the first place when the banding was matched in 2004 then. Pay gets protected for 4 years but obviously new staff are coming in.
Or another way they do it is to set up a LTD company and as staff leave the jobs replacing are on a lower band.
The ltd company saves the trust 20% anyway and the majority of third party subsidiaries in my region operate using AfC terms and conditions anyway.
pavarotti1980 said:
It seems that they must have been banded incorrectly in the first place when the banding was matched in 2004 then.
The ltd company saves the trust 20% anyway and the majority of third party subsidiaries in my region operate using AfC terms and conditions anyway.
The AfC banding process was a complete farce. We were all told that bandings would allow for more appropriate gradings and so more scope for professional development - the Old Whitley council format allowed for only 3 clinical grades, and so to progress professionally, maybe as a highly specialist practitioner, management grades had to be employed. So AfC seemed like a good idea, but what actually happened was that most existing employees were just allocated a banding close to the their current pay point, whilst new staff got (relatively) down banded. The ltd company saves the trust 20% anyway and the majority of third party subsidiaries in my region operate using AfC terms and conditions anyway.
In 2004(pre AfC) I was paid at something close to band 8a, but my AfC point score related to band 9, (in todays money thats about 50k pa difference) my boss told me that wasn't going to happen, as my uplift would wipe out all of the cash he had been allocated for the whole department on 30 odd people - I appealed but it was clear it wasn't going anywhere so ended up going overseas!
My mum had a knee operation recently, she was given the some crutches afterwards (the metal, adjustable ones).
She asked where she should hand them back to when she had no further need of them - was told to chuck them away as they couldn't be re-used for some unspecified reason.
Bloody daft and a total waste of money.
She asked where she should hand them back to when she had no further need of them - was told to chuck them away as they couldn't be re-used for some unspecified reason.
Bloody daft and a total waste of money.
The cost of drugs is only a tiny issue compared to the rest of the waste I had no idea.
That’s before we get to the hi, I have some money in my budget left over I need 20 of these.
Great no problem with 20 I can get you a discount.
Oh no don’t want a discount I need to spend my yearly budget
That’s before we get to the hi, I have some money in my budget left over I need 20 of these.
Great no problem with 20 I can get you a discount.
Oh no don’t want a discount I need to spend my yearly budget
OzzyR1 said:
My mum had a knee operation recently, she was given the some crutches afterwards (the metal, adjustable ones).
She asked where she should hand them back to when she had no further need of them - was told to chuck them away as they couldn't be re-used for some unspecified reason.
Bloody daft and a total waste of money.
We’ve covered this already.She asked where she should hand them back to when she had no further need of them - was told to chuck them away as they couldn't be re-used for some unspecified reason.
Bloody daft and a total waste of money.
We've just come home after a week in with a newborn and when I asked what to do with empty expressed milk pots what had been used I was told they all get binned. In fairness the two midwives thought it as just as ridiculous as I did and told me to take them if I could use them.
They're solid, watertight, plastic containers that can obviously be sterilized and reused and I believe fit most common breast pumps etc. Seems bizarre to chuck them in a bin and not even recycle!
They're solid, watertight, plastic containers that can obviously be sterilized and reused and I believe fit most common breast pumps etc. Seems bizarre to chuck them in a bin and not even recycle!
Pesty said:
The cost of drugs is only a tiny issue compared to the rest of the waste I had no idea.
That’s before we get to the hi, I have some money in my budget left over I need 20 of these.
Great no problem with 20 I can get you a discount.
Oh no don’t want a discount I need to spend my yearly budget
That sort of shenanigans went away over 15 years ago.That’s before we get to the hi, I have some money in my budget left over I need 20 of these.
Great no problem with 20 I can get you a discount.
Oh no don’t want a discount I need to spend my yearly budget
Finance do monthly budget and forecasting so this doesn’t happen.
pavarotti1980 said:
Downward said:
It’s called a re structure on different bands. I’ve seen it in our department, Jobs were re banded lower.
Pay gets protected for 4 years but obviously new staff are coming in.
Or another way they do it is to set up a LTD company and as staff leave the jobs replacing are on a lower band.
It seems that they must have been banded incorrectly in the first place when the banding was matched in 2004 then. Pay gets protected for 4 years but obviously new staff are coming in.
Or another way they do it is to set up a LTD company and as staff leave the jobs replacing are on a lower band.
The ltd company saves the trust 20% anyway and the majority of third party subsidiaries in my region operate using AfC terms and conditions anyway.
There is a trust I can’t remember which outsourced all the Finance function. This was the last one to do so as I know we were looking at it as an option but the Government put a stop to it. It was going down the all non clinical staff to not be part of the NHS anymore.
Problem with banding in 2004 compared to now is job roles have changed as have the responsibilities and reporting.
Again the NHS is too big and inflexible to change so we have ended up with jobs across the NHS all different bands.
Downward said:
LTD company may save 20% for the trust but this is 20% less going back to the Tax office through VAT.
There is a trust I can’t remember which outsourced all the Finance function. This was the last one to do so as I know we were looking at it as an option but the Government put a stop to it. It was going down the all non clinical staff to not be part of the NHS anymore.
Problem with banding in 2004 compared to now is job roles have changed as have the responsibilities and reporting.
Again the NHS is too big and inflexible to change so we have ended up with jobs across the NHS all different bands.
staff groups in the NHS are pretty consistent in the way they are banded. There is a trust I can’t remember which outsourced all the Finance function. This was the last one to do so as I know we were looking at it as an option but the Government put a stop to it. It was going down the all non clinical staff to not be part of the NHS anymore.
Problem with banding in 2004 compared to now is job roles have changed as have the responsibilities and reporting.
Again the NHS is too big and inflexible to change so we have ended up with jobs across the NHS all different bands.
I would say that the majority of roles banded in 2004 have seen an increase in responsibilities and any changes are likely to be upwards not the other way around. However additional responsibilities does not always translate to band changes. Using outsourcing or the creation of third party subsidiaries by NHS trusts is an entirely different issue to the one you said happens with staff being downgraded. You can't conflate the two scenarios
It's ironic you have brought up efficiency savings as a bad thing in a thread about NHS wastage 😳
pavarotti1980 said:
I would say that the majority of roles banded in 2004 have seen an increase in responsibilities and any changes are likely to be upwards not the other way around. However additional responsibilities does not always translate to band changes. Using outsourcing or the creation of third party subsidiaries by NHS trusts is an entirely different issue to the one you said happens with staff being downgraded. You can't conflate the two scenarios
One of my daughters does a band 7 clinical role but she only has a very small patient list - most of her time is supervision and management. The thing I find odd is that she's responsible for colleagues (and their patients) on the same band as her, although, as others have suggested, there is some pressure to move the clinical job to Band 6.She's just been Tuped out and it's been made clear that if there is any further progression then it'll be a new contract on the private company's T's & C's. The pay is very similar but the pension is completey rubbish. She's also extremely unhappy about not being "an NHS employee" any more.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The benefits of huge buying power often leads to wastage like this, it's a catch 22 but not limited to the NHS many big corporates have seemingly daft buying and disposal policies and many features of capatilist free markets don't appear on the surface to make sense. Of course if you're that convinced an economic error has occured or a flaw in thinking has been uncovered and value is being wasted why not exploit it, advertise and collect all these zimmers and crutches and realise their value. This time next year Rodders.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
There's a case to say that relatively low value items like this should be paid for by the patient. This might cover things like crutches, splints, supports, foot orthotics etc....things that are only needed short to medium yermt, often patients actually want to pay for them or pay for an extra item.The issue is that most trusts have no mechanism for taking cash off people and it's been cited in the past that setting up and administering such a system would cost more than it generates. Which I can't believe.
dave_s13 said:
There's a case to say that relatively low value items like this should be paid for by the patient. This might cover things like crutches, splints, supports, foot orthotics etc....things that are only needed short to medium yermt, often patients actually want to pay for them or pay for an extra item.
The issue is that most trusts have no mechanism for taking cash off people and it's been cited in the past that setting up and administering such a system would cost more than it generates. Which I can't believe.
Then you get into the who pays and who doesn’t issue, meaning you have to employ people to sort it all out and take payments. It just isn’t worth it.The issue is that most trusts have no mechanism for taking cash off people and it's been cited in the past that setting up and administering such a system would cost more than it generates. Which I can't believe.
pavarotti1980 said:
Downward said:
LTD company may save 20% for the trust but this is 20% less going back to the Tax office through VAT.
There is a trust I can’t remember which outsourced all the Finance function. This was the last one to do so as I know we were looking at it as an option but the Government put a stop to it. It was going down the all non clinical staff to not be part of the NHS anymore.
Problem with banding in 2004 compared to now is job roles have changed as have the responsibilities and reporting.
Again the NHS is too big and inflexible to change so we have ended up with jobs across the NHS all different bands.
staff groups in the NHS are pretty consistent in the way they are banded. There is a trust I can’t remember which outsourced all the Finance function. This was the last one to do so as I know we were looking at it as an option but the Government put a stop to it. It was going down the all non clinical staff to not be part of the NHS anymore.
Problem with banding in 2004 compared to now is job roles have changed as have the responsibilities and reporting.
Again the NHS is too big and inflexible to change so we have ended up with jobs across the NHS all different bands.
I would say that the majority of roles banded in 2004 have seen an increase in responsibilities and any changes are likely to be upwards not the other way around. However additional responsibilities does not always translate to band changes. Using outsourcing or the creation of third party subsidiaries by NHS trusts is an entirely different issue to the one you said happens with staff being downgraded. You can't conflate the two scenarios
It's ironic you have brought up efficiency savings as a bad thing in a thread about NHS wastage ??
Frimley staff out for 2 days on strike. Who will pick up this work ? It’ll go to overtime or agency.
Downward said:
Apart from the staff striking.
Frimley staff out for 2 days on strike. Who will pick up this work ? It’ll go to overtime or agency.
This happens every day doesnt it? Staff are always on strike for one thing or another Frimley staff out for 2 days on strike. Who will pick up this work ? It’ll go to overtime or agency.
There doesnt seem to have been so much of an issue in other parts of the coutry whereby thrid party/wholly owned subisidiaries have happened. So what is different at Frimley?
Just been told this story.
A few years my local hospital decided they wanted to cut their electricity usage down.
They decided to replace all the twin fluorescent fittings with singles.
The twins were either scrapped or kept by the contractor.
All they needed to do was to remove 1 starter ballast from each fitting at a cost of .... peanuts.
Instead they spent thousands
A few years my local hospital decided they wanted to cut their electricity usage down.
They decided to replace all the twin fluorescent fittings with singles.
The twins were either scrapped or kept by the contractor.
All they needed to do was to remove 1 starter ballast from each fitting at a cost of .... peanuts.
Instead they spent thousands
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