Discussion
Roofless Toothless said:
I think you are looking at this as too much of a scientific/mathematical premise, whereas in fact it is more philosophical. The nature of knowledge, what it is possible to know, has been explored by the line of philosophers from Descartes onwards, through Spinoza and Kant, to Schopenhauer. We understand the universe, for instance, as three dimensional because we, as observers, function in three dimensions. We have no knowledge of those parts of infinity that might operate with other dimensional systems. The observer and the observed are closely linked.
There is a book I return to over and over again that explains this, though I struggle with it. It is The Anthropic Cosmological Principle by John Barrow and Frank Tipler (OUP, 1986).
Possibly. I like reading philosophy but prefer ethics to epistemology. Sometimes it feels like you falling down the rabbit hole with the latter. But then I am a pragmatist. Some areas of current physics are intellectually interesting but practically pointless eg the multiverse - if you can only experience one universe and multiverses (recognising there are more than one flavour of multiverse) can’t interact then practically whether there exist or not makes no difference. There is a book I return to over and over again that explains this, though I struggle with it. It is The Anthropic Cosmological Principle by John Barrow and Frank Tipler (OUP, 1986).
julian64 said:
DrSteveBrule said:
From ghosts to mediums... anybody willing to share an experience? Preferably from the one-on-one encounters, not the theatrics of the stage ones where the net is cast so wide they can't fail.
As with ghosts, I remain on the fence.
But you aren't on the fence.As with ghosts, I remain on the fence.
DrSteveBrule said:
julian64 said:
DrSteveBrule said:
From ghosts to mediums... anybody willing to share an experience? Preferably from the one-on-one encounters, not the theatrics of the stage ones where the net is cast so wide they can't fail.
As with ghosts, I remain on the fence.
But you aren't on the fence.As with ghosts, I remain on the fence.
Mr-B said:
Derren Brown did something on this years ago basically showing all mediums are scams, it's just cold reading and he did a demonstration where he cold read people in an audience and told them he was not a medium and didn't proclaim to be one yet he came up with facts and all sorts with no prior knowledge of the individuals. If you have good cold reading skills you don't need t research anyone's facebook or linked in account.
And to an extent I agree, but how did she know the not-common name of my daughters best friend, for starters? She nailed it in one, there's was no scrabbling around with this 'I'm getting a C....'nonsense.Also - she knew the name and got the pronunciation right of my cousin (who is foreign); 70% right about my dad's unusual surname (which I don't share and there's no trace of him online as he died in 83) and the fact I was dabbling in crypto currency - for starters.
Playing devil's advocate: do you think that the cold reading skills could have been developed by people looking to copy genuine mediums (if they existed) and pass themselves off as one?
I don't know whether mediums are genuine and magicians copied them or not but I am more inclined to believe someone like Derren Brown who could make a substantial living from it based on his demonstration of cold reading techniques. He unequivicolly said they were fake, he didn't sugar coat it or sit on the fence.
The 'reverence' and respect for the scientific knowledge man has obtained up to now in 2020 may not be shared by the scientists of 200020
or 2000020 or 20000020.
I imagine by 20000020 human understanding of itself and the universe and what is and is not may have advanced a bit beyond what it is in 2020 and may indeed be very different from today's understandings.
For all we know by 20000020 the notion that God/aliens/ghosts/the afterlife DON'T exist might be as amusing to them as the idea that they DO exist is to us today.
Who knows? Truly, who knows?
or 2000020 or 20000020.
I imagine by 20000020 human understanding of itself and the universe and what is and is not may have advanced a bit beyond what it is in 2020 and may indeed be very different from today's understandings.
For all we know by 20000020 the notion that God/aliens/ghosts/the afterlife DON'T exist might be as amusing to them as the idea that they DO exist is to us today.
Who knows? Truly, who knows?
Very good point there Groat.
We find certain things laughable even from just a few hundred years ago based on what we know now. Doctors using leeches to suck out disease etc.
Who knows where we’ll be in hundreds / thousands more years?
On the other hand of course it’s still important to have advancements in scientific knowledge & research in order to challenge preconceptions.
Me, I hope that ghost stories will be here to stay whether they’re true or not. Sometimes the truth may well be logical and proven and backed up with research and evidence... but it isn’t half bloody boring!
We find certain things laughable even from just a few hundred years ago based on what we know now. Doctors using leeches to suck out disease etc.
Who knows where we’ll be in hundreds / thousands more years?
On the other hand of course it’s still important to have advancements in scientific knowledge & research in order to challenge preconceptions.
Me, I hope that ghost stories will be here to stay whether they’re true or not. Sometimes the truth may well be logical and proven and backed up with research and evidence... but it isn’t half bloody boring!
TwigtheWonderkid said:
And why are they so shy, usually only appearing to people when they are alone. Not many ghosts seem to turn up in the middle of Asda on a Tuesday afternoon, and are seen by 35 people. Millions of people claim to have seen ghosts, so there are plenty of them about. But not one has appeared at a big public event?
We've had awful tragedies with multiple horrific deaths at football matches at Hillsborough, Valley Parade and Ibrox over the last 50 years. Yet no ghosts have ever appeared in front of the fans at subsequent matches.
Well if one did appear no one would notice it. Let’s just say hypothetically a ghost was in a crowd or walking through town or whatever. Who would know? We've had awful tragedies with multiple horrific deaths at football matches at Hillsborough, Valley Parade and Ibrox over the last 50 years. Yet no ghosts have ever appeared in front of the fans at subsequent matches.
Douglas Quaid said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
And why are they so shy, usually only appearing to people when they are alone. Not many ghosts seem to turn up in the middle of Asda on a Tuesday afternoon, and are seen by 35 people. Millions of people claim to have seen ghosts, so there are plenty of them about. But not one has appeared at a big public event?
We've had awful tragedies with multiple horrific deaths at football matches at Hillsborough, Valley Parade and Ibrox over the last 50 years. Yet no ghosts have ever appeared in front of the fans at subsequent matches.
Well if one did appear no one would notice it. Let’s just say hypothetically a ghost was in a crowd or walking through town or whatever. Who would know? We've had awful tragedies with multiple horrific deaths at football matches at Hillsborough, Valley Parade and Ibrox over the last 50 years. Yet no ghosts have ever appeared in front of the fans at subsequent matches.
Then I met my mums old friend from 40 years prior. Wow. Mediums exist, she was that only one could describe as scary as F because you shouldn't know that. Even the stories my mum had of her when they was both young girls are something from a movie yet apparently real. Never believed her tbh until I took a trip with her back down england and bumped into her friend. She doesnt do it as a living. Calls it a curse and shes a store manager. Litterly knows everything about you when she touches you. Crazy. Actually doesnt even tell people but my mum was her friend so knew. Wouldnt date a guy after she kissed him as a teen. Straight reason to my mum was he would hang himself so didnt want involved. He did 6 months later. F that. She also said she was truly sorry to my mum at 16 and wouldnt say anymore... her boyfriend got a snapped neck in his car at 18 years old and died 2 days later. That's not even ghosts that's just plain creepy and I'm glad iv not met her since lol
Edited by hotchy on Saturday 30th May 07:28
Douglas Quaid said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
And why are they so shy, usually only appearing to people when they are alone. Not many ghosts seem to turn up in the middle of Asda on a Tuesday afternoon, and are seen by 35 people. Millions of people claim to have seen ghosts, so there are plenty of them about. But not one has appeared at a big public event?
We've had awful tragedies with multiple horrific deaths at football matches at Hillsborough, Valley Parade and Ibrox over the last 50 years. Yet no ghosts have ever appeared in front of the fans at subsequent matches.
Well if one did appear no one would notice it. Let’s just say hypothetically a ghost was in a crowd or walking through town or whatever. Who would know? We've had awful tragedies with multiple horrific deaths at football matches at Hillsborough, Valley Parade and Ibrox over the last 50 years. Yet no ghosts have ever appeared in front of the fans at subsequent matches.
bigpriest said:
robsa said:
8Ace said:
I don't get why it's just the recent ones we see - Victorian Spinsters, knights etc. If ghosts are a possibility there should be millions of them around, including ones frm the Bronze age / Black Death / Cro Magnon times
In the 1970’s the Guinness Book of Records had a lot of entries it has since taken out; one of them was ‘oldest recorded ghost’ which, IIRC, was the ghost of a Roman Centurion. I *think* it was in York or somewhere like that.I’d love ghosts to exist, but let’s face it, they really don’t do they?
TX.
DrSteveBrule said:
From ghosts to mediums... anybody willing to share an experience? Preferably from the one-on-one encounters, not the theatrics of the stage ones where the net is cast so wide they can't fail.
I'll get the ball rolling. I'd heard interesting stories from friends and friends of friends about a local medium. Some went looking for answers, the others were quite skeptical but came away impressed. It piqued my interest and after discussing it at work I 'volunteered' myself to go. I had no agenda other than to report what it was like.
It turned out to be uncanny in places. I have no idea how she knew about some of the stuff she was saying. I gave nothing away to prompt her and there is no information online about me that would have been relevant or useful - and she didn't say anything about what little is on Facebook et al. anyway.
As with ghosts, I remain on the fence.
Derren Brown can do it too though and he is definitely no Medium as admitted by the man himself. Charlatans of the highest order imho given they prey on the most vulnerable in society.I'll get the ball rolling. I'd heard interesting stories from friends and friends of friends about a local medium. Some went looking for answers, the others were quite skeptical but came away impressed. It piqued my interest and after discussing it at work I 'volunteered' myself to go. I had no agenda other than to report what it was like.
It turned out to be uncanny in places. I have no idea how she knew about some of the stuff she was saying. I gave nothing away to prompt her and there is no information online about me that would have been relevant or useful - and she didn't say anything about what little is on Facebook et al. anyway.
As with ghosts, I remain on the fence.
TX.
I would say I have had sufficient experience to be very open minded.
When I was c. 16 I spent the night at my girlfriends (parents) house in her single room (her parents put her on the sofa bed in the study).
At some time in the middle of the night I woke up, knowing there was something present in the room, but I could not see anything. I sat up in bed, the moon was full and bright and nothing was there, until I turned round to lay back down and there was a girl kneeling on my pillows, facing the wall with her head turned towards me!
Normal dress for the time (jeans, dark top, long dark hair tied back). I was frozen for what seemed like ages and eventually, whilst always keeping eye contact, I reached forward with my right hand and then jumped up when I realised I was now holding a leaf of the plant on the windowsill behind her.
I remember there and then knowing I had seen a 'ghost' and that anyone I told about about would not believe me.
That would have been the end of it, but 3 years later I had a friend over to my own place for the night and she saw exactly the same thing. I had never told here about my experience.
A few more years on from this I owned a bar and we we having a lock-in one night where I was behind the bar and some friends and their friends (who I didn't really know) were sat at the bar.
One of them asked me who was the girl sitting in the corner (which I couldn't see). I asked her to describe her and it was a girl in jeans and a dark top with her hair tied back.
I told here she would be gone the next time she looked over and she freaked out big time (as she had vanished).
My final encounter was in another building altogether a few years later. I was in the shower and the power kept tripping off. I got my (then) girlfriend to put it back on several times until on the last occasion this 'ghost' appeared inches away from my nose.
The next day we had an electrician round as I was getting small electric shocks from the sink tap. He said it was a good job I never used the shower as nothing was earthed and it could kill me.
I can't explain any of this, but it happened. Different houses and different people who experienced it.
I don't think it was a 'ghost', but it was something unexplainable.
When I was c. 16 I spent the night at my girlfriends (parents) house in her single room (her parents put her on the sofa bed in the study).
At some time in the middle of the night I woke up, knowing there was something present in the room, but I could not see anything. I sat up in bed, the moon was full and bright and nothing was there, until I turned round to lay back down and there was a girl kneeling on my pillows, facing the wall with her head turned towards me!
Normal dress for the time (jeans, dark top, long dark hair tied back). I was frozen for what seemed like ages and eventually, whilst always keeping eye contact, I reached forward with my right hand and then jumped up when I realised I was now holding a leaf of the plant on the windowsill behind her.
I remember there and then knowing I had seen a 'ghost' and that anyone I told about about would not believe me.
That would have been the end of it, but 3 years later I had a friend over to my own place for the night and she saw exactly the same thing. I had never told here about my experience.
A few more years on from this I owned a bar and we we having a lock-in one night where I was behind the bar and some friends and their friends (who I didn't really know) were sat at the bar.
One of them asked me who was the girl sitting in the corner (which I couldn't see). I asked her to describe her and it was a girl in jeans and a dark top with her hair tied back.
I told here she would be gone the next time she looked over and she freaked out big time (as she had vanished).
My final encounter was in another building altogether a few years later. I was in the shower and the power kept tripping off. I got my (then) girlfriend to put it back on several times until on the last occasion this 'ghost' appeared inches away from my nose.
The next day we had an electrician round as I was getting small electric shocks from the sink tap. He said it was a good job I never used the shower as nothing was earthed and it could kill me.
I can't explain any of this, but it happened. Different houses and different people who experienced it.
I don't think it was a 'ghost', but it was something unexplainable.
Terminator X said:
Derren Brown can do it too though and he is definitely no Medium as admitted by the man himself. Charlatans of the highest order imho given they prey on the most vulnerable in society.
TX.
It absolutely can be done, there's no argument from me there, but how do even begin to think how she got the names I mentioned through cold reading? TX.
Is Derren Brown 100% right in saying that 100% of all mediums don't possess any physic ability whatsoever? I don't think he can be that absolute. Of course it would undermine his position if he said 'This is all done through cold calling but you know, there are a small handful that can speak to the dead'.
JulianPH said:
I would say I have had sufficient experience to be very open minded.
When I was c. 16 I spent the night at my girlfriends (parents) house in her single room (her parents put her on the sofa bed in the study).
At some time in the middle of the night I woke up, knowing there was something present in the room, but I could not see anything. I sat up in bed, the moon was full and bright and nothing was there, until I turned round to lay back down and there was a girl kneeling on my pillows, facing the wall with her head turned towards me!
Normal dress for the time (jeans, dark top, long dark hair tied back). I was frozen for what seemed like ages and eventually, whilst always keeping eye contact, I reached forward with my right hand and then jumped up when I realised I was now holding a leaf of the plant on the windowsill behind her.
I remember there and then knowing I had seen a 'ghost' and that anyone I told about about would not believe me.
That would have been the end of it, but 3 years later I had a friend over to my own place for the night and she saw exactly the same thing. I had never told here about my experience.
A few more years on from this I owned a bar and we we having a lock-in one night where I was behind the bar and some friends and their friends (who I didn't really know) were sat at the bar.
One of them asked me who was the girl sitting in the corner (which I couldn't see). I asked her to describe her and it was a girl in jeans and a dark top with her hair tied back.
I told here she would be gone the next time she looked over and she freaked out big time (as she had vanished).
My final encounter was in another building altogether a few years later. I was in the shower and the power kept tripping off. I got my (then) girlfriend to put it back on several times until on the last occasion this 'ghost' appeared inches away from my nose.
The next day we had an electrician round as I was getting small electric shocks from the sink tap. He said it was a good job I never used the shower as nothing was earthed and it could kill me.
I can't explain any of this, but it happened. Different houses and different people who experienced it.
I don't think it was a 'ghost', but it was something unexplainable.
Blimey, that's an interesting one. Thanks for sharing.When I was c. 16 I spent the night at my girlfriends (parents) house in her single room (her parents put her on the sofa bed in the study).
At some time in the middle of the night I woke up, knowing there was something present in the room, but I could not see anything. I sat up in bed, the moon was full and bright and nothing was there, until I turned round to lay back down and there was a girl kneeling on my pillows, facing the wall with her head turned towards me!
Normal dress for the time (jeans, dark top, long dark hair tied back). I was frozen for what seemed like ages and eventually, whilst always keeping eye contact, I reached forward with my right hand and then jumped up when I realised I was now holding a leaf of the plant on the windowsill behind her.
I remember there and then knowing I had seen a 'ghost' and that anyone I told about about would not believe me.
That would have been the end of it, but 3 years later I had a friend over to my own place for the night and she saw exactly the same thing. I had never told here about my experience.
A few more years on from this I owned a bar and we we having a lock-in one night where I was behind the bar and some friends and their friends (who I didn't really know) were sat at the bar.
One of them asked me who was the girl sitting in the corner (which I couldn't see). I asked her to describe her and it was a girl in jeans and a dark top with her hair tied back.
I told here she would be gone the next time she looked over and she freaked out big time (as she had vanished).
My final encounter was in another building altogether a few years later. I was in the shower and the power kept tripping off. I got my (then) girlfriend to put it back on several times until on the last occasion this 'ghost' appeared inches away from my nose.
The next day we had an electrician round as I was getting small electric shocks from the sink tap. He said it was a good job I never used the shower as nothing was earthed and it could kill me.
I can't explain any of this, but it happened. Different houses and different people who experienced it.
I don't think it was a 'ghost', but it was something unexplainable.
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