Things you always wanted to know the answer to [Vol. 5]
Discussion
Snow and Rocks said:
Brother D said:
Why do Americans 'rotate the tires' at each service? I'm not quite sure of the benefits?
Considering the vast majority of cars are two wheel drive, wouldn't it make sense to replace the driven tires more often, rather than waiting longer and replacing all tires at the same time when they wear down?
On my old Land Cruiser, the (very old school) garage that did the servicing made a point of having all the wheels off to properly check the brakes etc and rotate the tyres every time. I routinely got 70k miles out of a set of BFG all terrain tyres.Considering the vast majority of cars are two wheel drive, wouldn't it make sense to replace the driven tires more often, rather than waiting longer and replacing all tires at the same time when they wear down?
The same tyres on my Hilux that have never been rotated are now 60k miles down with some tread left but make an absolute racket. So while there's no apparent difference in tread life, I'll definitely be swapping them around in future - the droning at 60mph is doing my head in!
Therefore it is actually more economical to rotate tyres and get the full tread wear from all of them before they perish. Of course, if you live in the UAE or similar, UV will likely kill them sooner unless you do huge mileages.
Rusty Old-Banger said:
How much right hand down you think you need, leaving at exit one - on any approach?
Depends on whether you are getting the back out or not, with a "dab of oppo". 
No, but seriously, I don't live in Milton Keynes (although did work there briefly) and I'm sure the extra tyre wear is negligible in real world conditions. Especially with modern congested roads and increased intolerance to having any fun with fast road driving.
However, I do know that I can seriously wear down a front left at Thruxton though: It's a very fast circuit with several high speed sustained right hand bends that put a huge amount of load onto the front left with corresponding wear.
Rusty Old-Banger said:
Abbott said:
Rusty Old-Banger said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Nethybridge said:
If a car's alignment is correctly set up I fail to see the reason to correct tyre wear
Car owners in Milton Keynes regularly wear their front left far quicker than their other tyres, due to all the roundabouts. You can either more regularly replace the front left singly as required or you can balance the wear and then replace in pairs which often attracts a discount.If taking exit one, then it's essentially a left turn, so heavier wear on the right tyre.
If taking exit two, then it's deflect left, then right, then left again to exit. The wear should be even-ish.
If taking exit three, then it's deflect left to enter, right on the roundabout (for longer than straight ahead) and then left again to exit. So slightly more wear to the left.
So provided you are using all exits a similar amount, the wear on all tyres should be reasonably even. The asymmetric wear caused by taking exit 3 would be balanced by that caused by taking exit 1 - and if using exit 3 on the way to the shops, then you'd be using exit 1 on the way home.
ETA I know it's naughty and they used to have TV adverts advising against it, but for real drifting you want radials on the front and cross-ply on the back. I used to have a Mk1 Fiesta that I could get drift-o for days with that set up. On private land, of course.
for any desired exit there is an on and off so they cancel each other out so you are left with the additional load on front left for each scenario.
I imagine if you are taking the first exit in one curve you may be not following the Highway Code
This is a typical Milton Keynes roundabout, chosen at random (as this was the original example given).
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0368021,-0.75572...
How much right hand down you think you need, leaving at exit one - on any approach?
Anyway, this is all splitting hairs - given modern anti-roll bars, the fact most cars are more loaded on the drivers (right hand) side, and the very low speeds concerned etc I would imagine the actual differential in wear is practically immeasurable. We aren't going through the 130R at 180mph.
In my experience I end up getting lost in MK and therefore do more 180 deg than I like
Abbott said:
Rusty Old-Banger said:
Abbott said:
Rusty Old-Banger said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Nethybridge said:
If a car's alignment is correctly set up I fail to see the reason to correct tyre wear
Car owners in Milton Keynes regularly wear their front left far quicker than their other tyres, due to all the roundabouts. You can either more regularly replace the front left singly as required or you can balance the wear and then replace in pairs which often attracts a discount.If taking exit one, then it's essentially a left turn, so heavier wear on the right tyre.
If taking exit two, then it's deflect left, then right, then left again to exit. The wear should be even-ish.
If taking exit three, then it's deflect left to enter, right on the roundabout (for longer than straight ahead) and then left again to exit. So slightly more wear to the left.
So provided you are using all exits a similar amount, the wear on all tyres should be reasonably even. The asymmetric wear caused by taking exit 3 would be balanced by that caused by taking exit 1 - and if using exit 3 on the way to the shops, then you'd be using exit 1 on the way home.
ETA I know it's naughty and they used to have TV adverts advising against it, but for real drifting you want radials on the front and cross-ply on the back. I used to have a Mk1 Fiesta that I could get drift-o for days with that set up. On private land, of course.
for any desired exit there is an on and off so they cancel each other out so you are left with the additional load on front left for each scenario.
I imagine if you are taking the first exit in one curve you may be not following the Highway Code
This is a typical Milton Keynes roundabout, chosen at random (as this was the original example given).
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.0368021,-0.75572...
How much right hand down you think you need, leaving at exit one - on any approach?
Anyway, this is all splitting hairs - given modern anti-roll bars, the fact most cars are more loaded on the drivers (right hand) side, and the very low speeds concerned etc I would imagine the actual differential in wear is practically immeasurable. We aren't going through the 130R at 180mph.
In my experience I end up getting lost in MK and therefore do more 180 deg than I like
te and the only way to get around is by taking right turn after right turn! Clockwork Cupcake said:
Rusty Old-Banger said:
How much right hand down you think you need, leaving at exit one - on any approach?
Depends on whether you are getting the back out or not, with a "dab of oppo". No, but seriously, I don't live in Milton Keynes (although did work there briefly) and I'm sure the extra tyre wear is negligible in real world conditions. Especially with modern congested roads and increased intolerance to having any fun with fast road driving.
However, I do know that I can seriously wear down a front left at Thruxton though: It's a very fast circuit with several high speed sustained right hand bends that put a huge amount of load onto the front left with corresponding wear.
Rusty Old-Banger said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Rusty Old-Banger said:
How much right hand down you think you need, leaving at exit one - on any approach?
Depends on whether you are getting the back out or not, with a "dab of oppo". No, but seriously, I don't live in Milton Keynes (although did work there briefly) and I'm sure the extra tyre wear is negligible in real world conditions. Especially with modern congested roads and increased intolerance to having any fun with fast road driving.
However, I do know that I can seriously wear down a front left at Thruxton though: It's a very fast circuit with several high speed sustained right hand bends that put a huge amount of load onto the front left with corresponding wear.
Rich Boy Spanner said:
Thruxton is renowned for it. BTCC had issues there with tyre failures. Isn't it also a very abrasive surface, by race track standards?
Not sure. I do know that one of the fastest bends (toward the end of the circuit before you get onto the back straight) is off-camber which loads the front left even more. It's a great circuit that I've driven several times now. A couple of times I drove it in a Suzuki Swift Mk1 and, under tuition, we were pretty much foot to the floor apart from the two chicanes, which was hilarious (especially in the wet). Faster cars were moving out of my way on the straights because they thought I was faster, and I couldn't overtake them as I was flat out.
It got a bit scary at times though. The instructor was telling me not to lift on fastest bends "You can go faster!" he would say and I would reply "I'm not sure I can!". But later on I think I did, although I knew I had probably reached the limit when the suspension started to get floaty on the fastest bends. Was a hoot though. My Golf R (which replaced the Swift) is faster, of course, but it's a different experience. The Sagaris is too noisy for Thruxton though, despite Thuxton being a working airport.
Anyway, I digress. Apologies.
audi321 said:
I think the issue with Milton Keynes is that everywhere is dual carriageway so effectively a motorway with roundabouts!
So you’re pretty much approaching each roundabout at 70mph therefore the wear is magnified.
Approaching the roundabout at 70mph does not mean that it is negotiated at 70mph... I would hope.So you’re pretty much approaching each roundabout at 70mph therefore the wear is magnified.
Strangely Brown said:
audi321 said:
I think the issue with Milton Keynes is that everywhere is dual carriageway so effectively a motorway with roundabouts!
So you’re pretty much approaching each roundabout at 70mph therefore the wear is magnified.
Approaching the roundabout at 70mph does not mean that it is negotiated at 70mph... I would hope.So you’re pretty much approaching each roundabout at 70mph therefore the wear is magnified.
Strangely Brown said:
audi321 said:
I think the issue with Milton Keynes is that everywhere is dual carriageway so effectively a motorway with roundabouts!
So you’re pretty much approaching each roundabout at 70mph therefore the wear is magnified.
Approaching the roundabout at 70mph does not mean that it is negotiated at 70mph... I would hope.So you’re pretty much approaching each roundabout at 70mph therefore the wear is magnified.
But I guarantee the roundabouts in MK are taken at a faster speed than elsewhere. I work there a lot and have first hand experience of the speeds people take them at.
Strangely Brown said:
audi321 said:
I think the issue with Milton Keynes is that everywhere is dual carriageway so effectively a motorway with roundabouts!
So you’re pretty much approaching each roundabout at 70mph therefore the wear is magnified.
Approaching the roundabout at 70mph does not mean that it is negotiated at 70mph... I would hope.So you’re pretty much approaching each roundabout at 70mph therefore the wear is magnified.
More seriously though, they're crap, most drivers will try to get near the speed limit, but slow down to navigate roundabouts, lots of acceleration and braking, awful for economy if nothing else.
P-Jay said:
Strangely Brown said:
audi321 said:
I think the issue with Milton Keynes is that everywhere is dual carriageway so effectively a motorway with roundabouts!
So you’re pretty much approaching each roundabout at 70mph therefore the wear is magnified.
Approaching the roundabout at 70mph does not mean that it is negotiated at 70mph... I would hope.So you’re pretty much approaching each roundabout at 70mph therefore the wear is magnified.
More seriously though, they're crap, most drivers will try to get near the speed limit, but slow down to navigate roundabouts, lots of acceleration and braking, awful for economy if nothing else.
It has been researched by the Uppsala University of the Bleeding
Obvious that front tyres will spend 99.78% of their time in the
straight ahead position under no abnormal loading, [maybe a bit less if you live around MK].
So during it's life going around an average number of roundabouts, even driving like Bo Duke, must have a negligible if nil effect on excess wear.
Obvious that front tyres will spend 99.78% of their time in the
straight ahead position under no abnormal loading, [maybe a bit less if you live around MK].
So during it's life going around an average number of roundabouts, even driving like Bo Duke, must have a negligible if nil effect on excess wear.
Nethybridge said:
It has been researched by the Uppsala University of the Bleeding
Obvious that front tyres will spend 99.78% of their time in the
straight ahead position under no abnormal loading, [maybe a bit less if you live around MK].
So during it's life going around an average number of roundabouts, even driving like Bo Duke, must have a negligible if nil effect on excess wear.
Ok. Well that's us all told then. Obvious that front tyres will spend 99.78% of their time in the
straight ahead position under no abnormal loading, [maybe a bit less if you live around MK].
So during it's life going around an average number of roundabouts, even driving like Bo Duke, must have a negligible if nil effect on excess wear.
Roofless Toothless said:
Abbott said:
captain_cynic said:
eldar said:
I always seem to board a plane on the right, starboard, if you approach the plane, as usual, from the front.
Becomes port, once seated.
This. I believe it's a throwback to the old sailing days where you dock to the left (port).Becomes port, once seated.
It's just become tradition. Realistically you can board or alight from either side but everything is set up for port. Also this separates passenger traffic from service traffic, so people servicing the aircraft can continue to do so from the right hand side of the aircraft without worrying about stray holidaymakers.
Interestingly in General Aviation, several Piper aircraft models don't have a door on the left, the only way to enter the aircraft is from the right. So as the pilot you have to climb over the passenger seat to get in to the pilot (left hand) seat. I always felt slightly uneasy flying without a door next to me.
Rusty Old-Banger said:
I've never been there to be honest, so I may be talking ste and the only way to get around is by taking right turn after right turn!
I've lived here for over 30 years and, in my experience, it is the right front that wears the fastest and I suspect that is because I accelerate off the roundabouts faster than I drive around them. There isn't a massive difference but it is measurable over the life of a set of tyres.te and the only way to get around is by taking right turn after right turn! It's the brakes that wear out first though and my fuel economy doubles whenever I go somewhere outside MK.
Rusty Old-Banger said:
Strangely Brown said:
audi321 said:
I think the issue with Milton Keynes is that everywhere is dual carriageway so effectively a motorway with roundabouts!
So you’re pretty much approaching each roundabout at 70mph therefore the wear is magnified.
Approaching the roundabout at 70mph does not mean that it is negotiated at 70mph... I would hope.So you’re pretty much approaching each roundabout at 70mph therefore the wear is magnified.
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