Conspiracy theorists... are they all just a bit thick?
Discussion
Blown2CV said:
without meaning to stoop to their level, does the data exist that refutes their claim that the vaccine is correlated with a higher incidence of heart attacks and deaths associated with.
In multiple ways including post-marketing (phase 4) reports of side effects; research studies comparing rates of cardiovascular conditions etc in vaccinated versus unvaccinated people ad over time; there's the complete lack of correlation from one country to another regarding COVID vaccination rates and excess deaths (some are high in one and low the other, others the other way round) and there's an inverse relationship between vaccine uptake and mortality - populations, cities, areas that we less likely to be vaccinated have higher mortality rates. Worth remembering a large majority of serious illness reported after vaccination in pharmacovigilance systems like VAERS or "yellow cards" is completely unrelated and coincidental. There's a myth that lots of complications never get reported therefore the official reports of vaccine side effects under-report complications. But when you think about it that can't be true otherwise how would something as rare as blood clots in the brain affecting maybe 1 in 50,000 people who received the AZ vaccine have been identified so rapidly? If only a small percentage of something affecting 1 in 50,000 people got reported, we'd still be years away from spotting the connection, it's precisely because so much "noise" gets reported that it's possible to spot the "signal" from patterns of rare conditions emerging.
PurplePenguin said:
Was the claim Covid vaccines could cause myocarditis a conspiracy theory in the early days (of vaccine administration)? Or is it just conspiracy theorists ignore all the other causes of myocarditis?
I thought Prof John Bell nailed it when he said, "If you don't want to get myocarditis, get vaccinated [against COVID]". Yes a (usually mild and transient) myocarditis was one of the few potentially serious side effects that was identified once entire populations became eligible for vaccination. Remember that even though the initial vaccine studies involved tens of thousands of volunteers it was too rare a complication to show up at that point, which rather highlights the point that it was very unlikely to affect the vast majority of people.The conspiracy thereafter became an obsession with proving that the vaccine was dangerous, whilst ignoring that myocarditis is often caused by viruses, and the risk of myocarditis from the COVID virus was both much more likely and potentially more serious than the risk of myocarditis from the COVID vaccine. Considering that the COVID vaccine is essentially a strip of RNA that is one of the 30 or so genes making up the RNA code of the COVID virus, there is no plausible mechanism to explain how splicing out this one COVID gene and introducing it to the human body in isolation, rather than introducing the entire strip of COVID RNA that codes for the COVID virus, could be more hazardous than the virus. among the other 29 or so genes in the virus but excised from the vaccine are genes that turn off cellular defense mechanisms or encourage the body's immune system to mount a dysfunctional and potentially disproportional response that as we know can be fatal. So there's another conspiracy theory that seeks without any molecular plausibility, to maintain that the vaccine is somehow capable of doing more harm to the body than the virus of which the vaccine is effectively just a small subunit.
PurplePenguin said:
Why would you change your view if it IS a fact that vaccines cause that specific side effect?
A bigger question is why Covid vaccines continued to be pushed on to healthy people despite not having undergone the various trial stages.
There is modulating your view to include an element of nuance and there is changing your view 180 degrees. I would prefer it that there was no link between COVID vaccines and myocarditis, but there is, and therefore vaccine programs have had to adapt to that new information. For instance by changing the gap between the vacccine, as early evidence showed that the closer together the first two vaccine doses, the greater the risk of myocarditis. That's totally different from saying, we've found a rare but potentially serious side effect, therefore we must stop using the vaccine with immediate effect.A bigger question is why Covid vaccines continued to be pushed on to healthy people despite not having undergone the various trial stages.
At least in the UK, the COVID vaccine continues to be offered to people who are expected to be at considerably higher risk of harm from COVID were they to catch it, than the general population. Some of these individuals may to you appear to be healthy, but if so they are being offered the vaccine because it reduces (even though it doesn't eliminate) the risk of harm from a COVID infection. Maybe that's what you mean by being pushed ontp to healthy people. If you meant why is it still offered to fit youngish people with no pre-existing health problems, you're out of luck; it hasn't been available on the NHS for some time now to these people as there is no benefit any more to them receiving it (at least until something happens to their health that pushes them into the groups of higher risk individuals) .
The bigger question for me is why people continue to maintain that the COVID vaccines have not undergone various trial stages when quite patently they have gone through all the usual trials (if they haven't, can you name which stage was omitted?), and the amount of scrutiny place on them surely makes them the most studied vaccines in history.
COVID does seem to attract a disproportionate amount of conspiracy theories - I've counted at least seven just in the above examples.
As a health professional involved at a fairly senior level in the COVID response it's been quite illuminating to see how really quite small numbers of people have developed these sorts of conspiracy theories throughout the pandemic and amplified them to make it seem like there is a really serious problem when there isn't.
Chromegrill said:
Blown2CV said:
without meaning to stoop to their level, does the data exist that refutes their claim that the vaccine is correlated with a higher incidence of heart attacks and deaths associated with.
In multiple ways including post-marketing (phase 4) reports of side effects; research studies comparing rates of cardiovascular conditions etc in vaccinated versus unvaccinated people ad over time; there's the complete lack of correlation from one country to another regarding COVID vaccination rates and excess deaths (some are high in one and low the other, others the other way round) and there's an inverse relationship between vaccine uptake and mortality - populations, cities, areas that we less likely to be vaccinated have higher mortality rates. Worth remembering a large majority of serious illness reported after vaccination in pharmacovigilance systems like VAERS or "yellow cards" is completely unrelated and coincidental. There's a myth that lots of complications never get reported therefore the official reports of vaccine side effects under-report complications. But when you think about it that can't be true otherwise how would something as rare as blood clots in the brain affecting maybe 1 in 50,000 people who received the AZ vaccine have been identified so rapidly? If only a small percentage of something affecting 1 in 50,000 people got reported, we'd still be years away from spotting the connection, it's precisely because so much "noise" gets reported that it's possible to spot the "signal" from patterns of rare conditions emerging.
PurplePenguin said:
Was the claim Covid vaccines could cause myocarditis a conspiracy theory in the early days (of vaccine administration)? Or is it just conspiracy theorists ignore all the other causes of myocarditis?
I thought Prof John Bell nailed it when he said, "If you don't want to get myocarditis, get vaccinated [against COVID]". Yes a (usually mild and transient) myocarditis was one of the few potentially serious side effects that was identified once entire populations became eligible for vaccination. Remember that even though the initial vaccine studies involved tens of thousands of volunteers it was too rare a complication to show up at that point, which rather highlights the point that it was very unlikely to affect the vast majority of people.The conspiracy thereafter became an obsession with proving that the vaccine was dangerous, whilst ignoring that myocarditis is often caused by viruses, and the risk of myocarditis from the COVID virus was both much more likely and potentially more serious than the risk of myocarditis from the COVID vaccine. Considering that the COVID vaccine is essentially a strip of RNA that is one of the 30 or so genes making up the RNA code of the COVID virus, there is no plausible mechanism to explain how splicing out this one COVID gene and introducing it to the human body in isolation, rather than introducing the entire strip of COVID RNA that codes for the COVID virus, could be more hazardous than the virus. among the other 29 or so genes in the virus but excised from the vaccine are genes that turn off cellular defense mechanisms or encourage the body's immune system to mount a dysfunctional and potentially disproportional response that as we know can be fatal. So there's another conspiracy theory that seeks without any molecular plausibility, to maintain that the vaccine is somehow capable of doing more harm to the body than the virus of which the vaccine is effectively just a small subunit.
PurplePenguin said:
Why would you change your view if it IS a fact that vaccines cause that specific side effect?
A bigger question is why Covid vaccines continued to be pushed on to healthy people despite not having undergone the various trial stages.
There is modulating your view to include an element of nuance and there is changing your view 180 degrees. I would prefer it that there was no link between COVID vaccines and myocarditis, but there is, and therefore vaccine programs have had to adapt to that new information. For instance by changing the gap between the vacccine, as early evidence showed that the closer together the first two vaccine doses, the greater the risk of myocarditis. That's totally different from saying, we've found a rare but potentially serious side effect, therefore we must stop using the vaccine with immediate effect.A bigger question is why Covid vaccines continued to be pushed on to healthy people despite not having undergone the various trial stages.
At least in the UK, the COVID vaccine continues to be offered to people who are expected to be at considerably higher risk of harm from COVID were they to catch it, than the general population. Some of these individuals may to you appear to be healthy, but if so they are being offered the vaccine because it reduces (even though it doesn't eliminate) the risk of harm from a COVID infection. Maybe that's what you mean by being pushed ontp to healthy people. If you meant why is it still offered to fit youngish people with no pre-existing health problems, you're out of luck; it hasn't been available on the NHS for some time now to these people as there is no benefit any more to them receiving it (at least until something happens to their health that pushes them into the groups of higher risk individuals) .
The bigger question for me is why people continue to maintain that the COVID vaccines have not undergone various trial stages when quite patently they have gone through all the usual trials (if they haven't, can you name which stage was omitted?), and the amount of scrutiny place on them surely makes them the most studied vaccines in history.
COVID does seem to attract a disproportionate amount of conspiracy theories - I've counted at least seven just in the above examples.
As a health professional involved at a fairly senior level in the COVID response it's been quite illuminating to see how really quite small numbers of people have developed these sorts of conspiracy theories throughout the pandemic and amplified them to make it seem like there is a really serious problem when there isn't.
Rufus Stone said:
Chromegrill said:
Blown2CV said:
without meaning to stoop to their level, does the data exist that refutes their claim that the vaccine is correlated with a higher incidence of heart attacks and deaths associated with.
In multiple ways including post-marketing (phase 4) reports of side effects; research studies comparing rates of cardiovascular conditions etc in vaccinated versus unvaccinated people ad over time; there's the complete lack of correlation from one country to another regarding COVID vaccination rates and excess deaths (some are high in one and low the other, others the other way round) and there's an inverse relationship between vaccine uptake and mortality - populations, cities, areas that we less likely to be vaccinated have higher mortality rates. Worth remembering a large majority of serious illness reported after vaccination in pharmacovigilance systems like VAERS or "yellow cards" is completely unrelated and coincidental. There's a myth that lots of complications never get reported therefore the official reports of vaccine side effects under-report complications. But when you think about it that can't be true otherwise how would something as rare as blood clots in the brain affecting maybe 1 in 50,000 people who received the AZ vaccine have been identified so rapidly? If only a small percentage of something affecting 1 in 50,000 people got reported, we'd still be years away from spotting the connection, it's precisely because so much "noise" gets reported that it's possible to spot the "signal" from patterns of rare conditions emerging.
PurplePenguin said:
Was the claim Covid vaccines could cause myocarditis a conspiracy theory in the early days (of vaccine administration)? Or is it just conspiracy theorists ignore all the other causes of myocarditis?
I thought Prof John Bell nailed it when he said, "If you don't want to get myocarditis, get vaccinated [against COVID]". Yes a (usually mild and transient) myocarditis was one of the few potentially serious side effects that was identified once entire populations became eligible for vaccination. Remember that even though the initial vaccine studies involved tens of thousands of volunteers it was too rare a complication to show up at that point, which rather highlights the point that it was very unlikely to affect the vast majority of people.The conspiracy thereafter became an obsession with proving that the vaccine was dangerous, whilst ignoring that myocarditis is often caused by viruses, and the risk of myocarditis from the COVID virus was both much more likely and potentially more serious than the risk of myocarditis from the COVID vaccine. Considering that the COVID vaccine is essentially a strip of RNA that is one of the 30 or so genes making up the RNA code of the COVID virus, there is no plausible mechanism to explain how splicing out this one COVID gene and introducing it to the human body in isolation, rather than introducing the entire strip of COVID RNA that codes for the COVID virus, could be more hazardous than the virus. among the other 29 or so genes in the virus but excised from the vaccine are genes that turn off cellular defense mechanisms or encourage the body's immune system to mount a dysfunctional and potentially disproportional response that as we know can be fatal. So there's another conspiracy theory that seeks without any molecular plausibility, to maintain that the vaccine is somehow capable of doing more harm to the body than the virus of which the vaccine is effectively just a small subunit.
PurplePenguin said:
Why would you change your view if it IS a fact that vaccines cause that specific side effect?
A bigger question is why Covid vaccines continued to be pushed on to healthy people despite not having undergone the various trial stages.
There is modulating your view to include an element of nuance and there is changing your view 180 degrees. I would prefer it that there was no link between COVID vaccines and myocarditis, but there is, and therefore vaccine programs have had to adapt to that new information. For instance by changing the gap between the vacccine, as early evidence showed that the closer together the first two vaccine doses, the greater the risk of myocarditis. That's totally different from saying, we've found a rare but potentially serious side effect, therefore we must stop using the vaccine with immediate effect.A bigger question is why Covid vaccines continued to be pushed on to healthy people despite not having undergone the various trial stages.
At least in the UK, the COVID vaccine continues to be offered to people who are expected to be at considerably higher risk of harm from COVID were they to catch it, than the general population. Some of these individuals may to you appear to be healthy, but if so they are being offered the vaccine because it reduces (even though it doesn't eliminate) the risk of harm from a COVID infection. Maybe that's what you mean by being pushed ontp to healthy people. If you meant why is it still offered to fit youngish people with no pre-existing health problems, you're out of luck; it hasn't been available on the NHS for some time now to these people as there is no benefit any more to them receiving it (at least until something happens to their health that pushes them into the groups of higher risk individuals) .
The bigger question for me is why people continue to maintain that the COVID vaccines have not undergone various trial stages when quite patently they have gone through all the usual trials (if they haven't, can you name which stage was omitted?), and the amount of scrutiny place on them surely makes them the most studied vaccines in history.
COVID does seem to attract a disproportionate amount of conspiracy theories - I've counted at least seven just in the above examples.
As a health professional involved at a fairly senior level in the COVID response it's been quite illuminating to see how really quite small numbers of people have developed these sorts of conspiracy theories throughout the pandemic and amplified them to make it seem like there is a really serious problem when there isn't.
I've just been on "that thread". Wow. Just wow.
I've come to realise there are 3 common types of CT.
1) The possibly reasonably educated but fairly paranoid, some mental issues, perfectly capable of functioning in normal life and probably have or had a decent level job. What would habe been an "eccentric" till now.
2) The what I'll kindly call the Farage/Fox. They probably don't believe what they spout but it's profitable, willing to participate in any subject they can generate large amounts of followers from and then most likely sell them tat, be it union jack gin or vaccine repellant tablets. See also Trump, Alex Jones, Q'anon etc.
3) The stupids. Either don't work claiming various world against them disabilities or work a low level job, almost certainly have "studied at university of life" on their Facebook. Not all that long ago no doubt we're strong supporters of NHS and banging pans, then it was Captain Tom, long ago was Help for Heroes and most likely still have a Vauxhall Zafira stickered up with poppies rotting away on their patch of grass in front of their house.
1 of those 3 is not a CT. They are predators. The other 2 are the prey. They pay for the predators to live well and disrupt the world they live in. Sometimes the predators are funded by outside states, but most often it's just cynical marketing, scared and stupid people are easy to sell to.
I've come to realise there are 3 common types of CT.
1) The possibly reasonably educated but fairly paranoid, some mental issues, perfectly capable of functioning in normal life and probably have or had a decent level job. What would habe been an "eccentric" till now.
2) The what I'll kindly call the Farage/Fox. They probably don't believe what they spout but it's profitable, willing to participate in any subject they can generate large amounts of followers from and then most likely sell them tat, be it union jack gin or vaccine repellant tablets. See also Trump, Alex Jones, Q'anon etc.
3) The stupids. Either don't work claiming various world against them disabilities or work a low level job, almost certainly have "studied at university of life" on their Facebook. Not all that long ago no doubt we're strong supporters of NHS and banging pans, then it was Captain Tom, long ago was Help for Heroes and most likely still have a Vauxhall Zafira stickered up with poppies rotting away on their patch of grass in front of their house.
1 of those 3 is not a CT. They are predators. The other 2 are the prey. They pay for the predators to live well and disrupt the world they live in. Sometimes the predators are funded by outside states, but most often it's just cynical marketing, scared and stupid people are easy to sell to.
Wow, pop out for the weekend and ... lol
Yes I saw in the thread they suddenly went on the attack to discredit. Was really surprised to see a comment about being 'emotionally compromised' as most of the posters are rabidly emotionally compromised as a CT to the point they lose friends over their beliefs. Very bizarre comments.
Its also a demonstration of that thread over run with those hugely invested into the theories on there and those that have given up trying to have a debate, as there is very little support for one side and a tidal wave of comments for the other. This in itself creates that illusion that there are so many people believing the conspiracy, when in fact its a small number who all sit in a very small room, making it feel like its a big thing.
Yes I saw in the thread they suddenly went on the attack to discredit. Was really surprised to see a comment about being 'emotionally compromised' as most of the posters are rabidly emotionally compromised as a CT to the point they lose friends over their beliefs. Very bizarre comments.
Its also a demonstration of that thread over run with those hugely invested into the theories on there and those that have given up trying to have a debate, as there is very little support for one side and a tidal wave of comments for the other. This in itself creates that illusion that there are so many people believing the conspiracy, when in fact its a small number who all sit in a very small room, making it feel like its a big thing.
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