Ask an Engineer anything

[r159]

Fusion777 said:

r159 said:

My lad (year 7) was in some engineering careers on line thing on Friday, he was very interested, when I asked him what kind the Engineer the speaker was things were a bit vague.

Eventually I managed to prise out that the person managed people in engineering....this I had to explain was what happened when you worked your way up the ladder, which put him off a bit.

Needing to be good at maths did make him happy though as it’s his favourite subject.

Engineering is a vast field, there are so many different roles and disciplines. That's good that he's good at maths- you don't necessarily need to be a whizz in it to succeed, it's more that it enables you to take the right degree course or do well in the theoretical modules if you go down the apprenticeship route.

It does help to have an analytical mind, naturally. But don't be put off if you're not an A grade Maths student.

Which university did you study at and do you think the course content was relevant to the job you do?

[h0b0]

I realize the question was aimed at the OP, as it’s his thread, I still want to provide an answer. I went to the University of Birmingham and graduated in 2000.

Many people question the value of education at all levels. “Algebra! When will I use that?!?!?”

Engineering provides a mind set and a logical approach to understanding and solving complex problems. Being able to see through the many stages and link everything together. Breaking down an issue to solvable components. This can apply to any situation inside work and at home. Does an engineering degree provide an engineering mind? Probably not. But, it can provide some of the skills to those that aspire and can hone the skills of those that have it. I spent 3 years with some of the smartest (drug/alcohol abusing) people I have even met. I don’t expect them to all be engineers now, I am not, but in a room of people I would expect them to be the problem solvers.

[lord trumpton]

h0b0 said:

Do you get angry when plumbers call themselves “heating engineers”?

I do.

I'm C Eng ImechE and when someone asks and I say I'm (was actually as I now own a car cosmetics co) an Engineer and they reply with something like 'my mates a domestic engineer or whatever' it fks me off Royal.

OP - how you finding CI? Your life will revolve around this ethos right?

Edited by lord trumpton on Sunday 7th March 04:41

[Poisson96]

What's your thoughts on apprenticeship training vs university for going into the area?

[CubanPete]

h0b0 said:

Do you get angry when plumbers call themselves “heating engineers”?

I don't.

Engineers solve problems. It's just the difficulty of the problem you are able to solve. My boss calls software engineers Typists.

A rose by any other name etc.

[Rob_125]

I don't think a degree should define someone as being an engineer, i am surrounded by grads who are classed as engineers, lots are just useless with zero understanding and vision (some are excellent mind you). Some of the best engineers I have met have zero qualifications. This what is going wrong with UK engineering, focus on degrees rather than actual skills. And yes I have a degree.

[Fusion777]

mcg_ said:

are you underpaid?

I'd say I'm ballpark for my experience level/industry. Would definitely appreciate more though. Given the skillset many engineers bring to the table, compensation can be lacking compared to many other sectors.

A good thing is that jobs are spread throughout the country, so you're not forced to live in London, the SE or anywhere really expensive, which helps.

[Fusion777]

r159 said:

Which university did you study at and do you think the course content was relevant to the job you do?

I actually did Physics at a Russell Group institution, which had particular relevance as I'd studied/done quite a lot of work on lasers/optical systems. I've always been hands on and have a wide range of interests.

Relevance of course content overall? Frankly, a lot of it isn't directly relevant. I think this would be the case for Mechanical Engineering also though. A lot of courses are heavy on theory, and you don't tend to use that much of your strictly theoretical knowledge in something like manufacturing.

I did the course that interested me the most though, rather than what would net me the largest salary or be the most applicable to the jobs market. It's strange that your degree defines you a bit when you start out, because I think like many people that we're just people orientated towards a particular way of thinking which can adapt to lots of different scenarios. I'm equally happy learning about manufacturing engineering as I am philosophy, and economics. I've always been a naturally curious person that just wants to absorb knowledge and pass it on.

[Fusion777]

h0b0 said:

I realize the question was aimed at the OP, as it’s his thread, I still want to provide an answer. I went to the University of Birmingham and graduated in 2000.

Many people question the value of education at all levels. “Algebra! When will I use that?!?!?”

Engineering provides a mind set and a logical approach to understanding and solving complex problems. Being able to see through the many stages and link everything together. Breaking down an issue to solvable components. This can apply to any situation inside work and at home. Does an engineering degree provide an engineering mind? Probably not. But, it can provide some of the skills to those that aspire and can hone the skills of those that have it. I spent 3 years with some of the smartest (drug/alcohol abusing) people I have even met. I don’t expect them to all be engineers now, I am not, but in a room of people I would expect them to be the problem solvers.

Exactly.

[Fusion777]

lord trumpton said:

OP - how you finding CI? Your life will revolve around this ethos right?

Edited by lord trumpton on Sunday 7th March 04:41

I'm a full paid up subscriber of CI/Six Sigma and associated methodologies. Unfortunately, it seems many companies are not! I think there's a distrust of systems sometimes, and a lack of willingness to throw resources at solving problems properly in this sort of structured manner. It does require lots of time, meetings and analysis. But how else are you supposed to bottom out root causes properly, to prevent the same kind of issues cropping up over and over?

As mentioned earlier, I'm intensely logical and love systems and structure. Many engineers are similar. But you have to work within the confines of accounting-orientated mindsets, where time and money sometimes matter more than providing the most complete solution. I get it- we're in business at the end of day, not the academic world where we can sit around all day discussing and pondering. But you need a balance of getting things done and seeing the big picture or what will help the business long term.

[NewNameNeeded]

h0b0 said:

I
Engineering provides a mind set and a logical approach to understanding and solving complex problems. Being able to see through the many stages and link everything together. Breaking down an issue to solvable components. This can apply to any situation inside work and at home. Does an engineering degree provide an engineering mind? Probably not. But, it can provide some of the skills to those that aspire and can hone the skills of those that have it. I spent 3 years with some of the smartest (drug/alcohol abusing) people I have even met. I don’t expect them to all be engineers now, I am not, but in a room of people I would expect them to be the problem solvers.

Definitely agree with this. I got a first in Chemical Engineering and landed a graduate role as a process engineer at a refinery in the UK. I learnt very quickly that I was academically very strong, a good engineer ... but not an exceptional one. Others just loved the job more than me. Solving a cavitating pump just didn't spark much passion in me.

But the degree and the job did fine-tune my problem solving skills. And in my career to date the logical, methodical, practical and commercial problem solvers in the room are more often than not those with an engineering background that have been trained to.solve complex problems in the real world.

[Fusion777]

Poisson96 said:

What's your thoughts on apprenticeship training vs university for going into the area?

Good question. Another posted touched on this- that apprenticeships can be as good as, if not better than doing a degree. I'm inclined to agree. If you're sure that you want to work in engineering, then apprenticeships are a great route. I've met and worked with plenty of apprentices, and overall I've been really impressed. They tend to be genuinely passionate about the field and industry and knowledgable/skilled, especially on the practical side.

I don't think the lack of a full degree hinders them at all. In something like manufacturing, a lot of what you learn is on the job anyway. What I've tended to find is that by working in a mixed team, knowledge of certain things (like six sigma for example) can be passed around from member to member. You don't all need to go on a particular course. An apprentice working in several different teams over 4 years is going to absorb a ton of knowledge, and be well versed in dealing in real life problem solving.

It depends what the individual wants. You've got to be fairly sure at 18 (or thereabouts) that you want to work in that sort of field, even if it is initially. I didn't know at that age exactly what I field I wanted to work in- only what I wanted to study. You're tying up 4 years of your life early on, and are most likely going to be working/studying within a smallish radius of where you live, and you'll be living at home still. You'll be earning though while your friends aren't (or you'll be earning more), and you won't have the debt that they'll have.

I, and many others were fortunate in that we could study before the £9k+ a year tuition fees, which is scandalous really, especially for STEM subjects. I don't think it would have put me off, though.

[r159]

Fusion777 said:

r159 said:

Which university did you study at and do you think the course content was relevant to the job you do?

I actually did Physics at a Russell Group institution, which had particular relevance as I'd studied/done quite a lot of work on lasers/optical systems. I've always been hands on and have a wide range of interests.

Relevance of course content overall? Frankly, a lot of it isn't directly relevant. I think this would be the case for Mechanical Engineering also though. A lot of courses are heavy on theory, and you don't tend to use that much of your strictly theoretical knowledge in something like manufacturing.

I did the course that interested me the most though, rather than what would net me the largest salary or be the most applicable to the jobs market. It's strange that your degree defines you a bit when you start out, because I think like many people that we're just people orientated towards a particular way of thinking which can adapt to lots of different scenarios. I'm equally happy learning about manufacturing engineering as I am philosophy, and economics. I've always been a naturally curious person that just wants to absorb knowledge and pass it on.

Interesting, I studied Manufacturing Engineering and Manufacturing Management at a Russel (Notts) the range of studies was very good however and directly transferred to working. But in some cases extremely frustrating, examples being Turbo Pascal instead of C++ and some crappy CAD package instead of Autocad, yes teaches you the principles but why not do it in the commonly used language/system! In my industrial placement I had to learn to use Autocad (in DOS!), which was more useful than the course content...

If I had my time again I would have thought more seriously about the apprentice route, but at the time -late 80’s/early 90’s this may have put me into Elec or Mech which wasn’t really my main interest. The maths was bloody hard work for me, but at least we stopped studying it before those studying Chemistry.

As part of the apprenticeship recruitment at work we compete for post A level students against Universities, the 5 year scheme will pay for them to get a degree, the biggest issue is convincing parents it’s an option rather than straight to Uni.

Too right about about Stem subjects needing a leg up, kids really enjoy getting involved with production games, building stuff etc...maybe we all need to get instagram accounts and become influencers!

Back to OP, what task/problem/job that’s given you the most satisfaction?

Edited by r159 on Sunday 7th March 10:54

Edited by r159 on Sunday 7th March 11:00

Edited by r159 on Sunday 7th March 11:02

[98elise]

Fusion777 said:

Poisson96 said:

What's your thoughts on apprenticeship training vs university for going into the area?

Good question. Another posted touched on this- that apprenticeships can be as good as, if not better than doing a degree. I'm inclined to agree. If you're sure that you want to work in engineering, then apprenticeships are a great route. I've met and worked with plenty of apprentices, and overall I've been really impressed. They tend to be genuinely passionate about the field and industry and knowledgable/skilled, especially on the practical side.

I don't think the lack of a full degree hinders them at all. In something like manufacturing, a lot of what you learn is on the job anyway. What I've tended to find is that by working in a mixed team, knowledge of certain things (like six sigma for example) can be passed around from member to member. You don't all need to go on a particular course. An apprentice working in several different teams over 4 years is going to absorb a ton of knowledge, and be well versed in dealing in real life problem solving.

It depends what the individual wants. You've got to be fairly sure at 18 (or thereabouts) that you want to work in that sort of field, even if it is initially. I didn't know at that age exactly what I field I wanted to work in- only what I wanted to study. You're tying up 4 years of your life early on, and are most likely going to be working/studying within a smallish radius of where you live, and you'll be living at home still. You'll be earning though while your friends aren't (or you'll be earning more), and you won't have the debt that they'll have.

I, and many others were fortunate in that we could study before the £9k+ a year tuition fees, which is scandalous really, especially for STEM subjects. I don't think it would have put me off, though.

My father was a C Eng and started out in an apprenticeship. I started going down that route by doing a 4 year apprenticeship in the military (full time training) but moved into IT as the pay was better.

Obviously these days a degree is the norm.

[Rob_125]

Fusion777 said:

Poisson96 said:

What's your thoughts on apprenticeship training vs university for going into the area?

Good question. Another posted touched on this- that apprenticeships can be as good as, if not better than doing a degree. I'm inclined to agree. If you're sure that you want to work in engineering, then apprenticeships are a great route. I've met and worked with plenty of apprentices, and overall I've been really impressed. They tend to be genuinely passionate about the field and industry and knowledgable/skilled, especially on the practical side.

I don't think the lack of a full degree hinders them at all. In something like manufacturing, a lot of what you learn is on the job anyway. What I've tended to find is that by working in a mixed team, knowledge of certain things (like six sigma for example) can be passed around from member to member. You don't all need to go on a particular course. An apprentice working in several different teams over 4 years is going to absorb a ton of knowledge, and be well versed in dealing in real life problem solving.

It depends what the individual wants. You've got to be fairly sure at 18 (or thereabouts) that you want to work in that sort of field, even if it is initially. I didn't know at that age exactly what I field I wanted to work in- only what I wanted to study. You're tying up 4 years of your life early on, and are most likely going to be working/studying within a smallish radius of where you live, and you'll be living at home still. You'll be earning though while your friends aren't (or you'll be earning more), and you won't have the debt that they'll have.

I, and many others were fortunate in that we could study before the £9k+ a year tuition fees, which is scandalous really, especially for STEM subjects. I don't think it would have put me off, though.

Great post. Also it is worth remembering than you can gain professional status, with out a degree, based on experience. Certainly EngTech and IEng, but you can get Chartered with a large amount of demonstratable experience (but clearly a degree does help with the academic side of the demonstration!). Personally I started as an apprentice, then did a FdSc, then BEng. (As mentioned above, not a great deal of the academic stuff I use in my day to day work, apart from maybe report writing).

[Fusion777]

98elise said:

My father was a C Eng and started out in an apprenticeship. I started going down that route by doing a 4 year apprenticeship in the military (full time training) but moved into IT as the pay was better.

Obviously these days a degree is the norm.

Cool. Sounds like you were in an optimum situation by learning while presumably on full pay (apprentice wages can still be low in industry, especially in the first few years).

My Dad ended up in transport management but did an apprenticeship, too. They were a lot more common then, and much fewer people went to uni.

[98elise]

Fusion777 said:

98elise said:

My father was a C Eng and started out in an apprenticeship. I started going down that route by doing a 4 year apprenticeship in the military (full time training) but moved into IT as the pay was better.

Obviously these days a degree is the norm.

Cool. Sounds like you were in an optimum situation by learning while presumably on full pay (apprentice wages can still be low in industry, especially in the first few years).

My Dad ended up in transport management but did an apprenticeship, too. They were a lot more common then, and much fewer people went to uni.

Yes it was full pay however it was still low. That said it was over 3 years of full time classroom/workshop training, split around 1 year in the field. Not many jobs will pay you to train for that long.

IIRC the course was around 50 modules and exams, and quite intense.

[GrizzlyBear]

Fusion777 said:

dvs_dave said:

Do you think the title of “Engineer” should be a protected one in the UK, as it is in other countries? And do you think this lack of protection has eroded both the interest in, but also the market value of the profession?

I'm speaking out of self interest here, but it would be nice. I don't think it's eroded interest in engineering, but I don't think the profession has the same prestige levels as others, nor are engineers as well regarded as in other countries. That might sound a little bit conceited, but it's just my personal opinion.

I would agree with that, the bloke who changes a tyre calls himself an Engineer does seem to take some value away from someone needing a Masters Degree! I have a few friends that are Chartered Engineers, but some of them seem the ultimate "jack of all trades", bit of code, bit of CAD, even on the tools when the need arises.

Perhaps the professional end should change their name? Ingeneer derived from Ingenious? rather then Engineer derived from Engine?

Just a thought

[Funny username]

98elise said:

My father was a C Eng and started out in an apprenticeship. I started going down that route by doing a 4 year apprenticeship in the military (full time training) but moved into IT as the pay was better.

Obviously these days a degree is the norm.

I did apprenticeship, which included BTEC, foundation degree than a top up to full Bachelors (fully paid by my company, of course).

Had the option of an MSc, but couldn’t commit to week block release away from home with a newborn at the time.

Now a CEng with IMech (again fully funded by company).

Maybe I’m biased, but IMO this is the best route into Engineering these days. No debt, experience on the job and a degree.

[GliderRider]

Fusion777, what proportion of your working day do you estimate is actually spent using skills in your skillset which are not available in those of lower paid staff in your organization?