Is Scots a language or dialect?
Discussion
J6542 said:
Most of my work is in Dundee. And their language is totally different to the rest of Scotland. Where a lot of Scots call a dog a dug, Dundonians call it a dooog. And don’t get started about pehs.
When I was younger I labourered for an old guy from Aberdeenshire for a few months and I honestly never had a clue what he was saying most off the time. The other labourer who had worked with him for a few years had to translate.
I'm from Aberdeen and hearing someone from down Dundee way call it a Peh always makes me cringe. When I was younger I labourered for an old guy from Aberdeenshire for a few months and I honestly never had a clue what he was saying most off the time. The other labourer who had worked with him for a few years had to translate.
It's quite funny, I've a bunch of friends that I often meet at car stuff, they're mostly from Fife & the surrounding areas. I find Fife accents can be quite strong, but fairly clean, not too much changed words etc. Whereas they often can't understand what we're saying if it's an enegretic/drunken conversation.
I mind I was down at Driftland (Lochgelly, Fife) a couple years back, we were sitting in the canteen when one of the kitchen workers shouted across to another one: "Don't loss they rolls". Took me and my Aberdonian friends a wee minute to figure out what had been said
The difference between a dialect and a language is politics...
There's more difference between Scottish English and Standard English than there is between Norwegian and Danish - and Norwegian became an official language rather than a dialect when Norway separated from Sweden.
Similarly, Cantonese is more different to Mandarin than Spanish to French, but is called a dialect
There's more difference between Scottish English and Standard English than there is between Norwegian and Danish - and Norwegian became an official language rather than a dialect when Norway separated from Sweden.
Similarly, Cantonese is more different to Mandarin than Spanish to French, but is called a dialect
I’ve never heard it called “Scots” before!
Oddly Scottish people speak the English language but with various dialects/accents.
Bit like English people speak with regional dialects. It’s just that as (U.K.) English speakers we recognise whether that accent/dialect is from North England, South England or Scotland etc. Who knows we maybe all sound the same to a French person.
Oddly Scottish people speak the English language but with various dialects/accents.
Bit like English people speak with regional dialects. It’s just that as (U.K.) English speakers we recognise whether that accent/dialect is from North England, South England or Scotland etc. Who knows we maybe all sound the same to a French person.
Catz said:
I’ve never heard it called “Scots” before!
Oddly Scottish people speak the English language but with various dialects/accents.
Bit like English people speak with regional dialects. It’s just that as (U.K.) English speakers we recognise whether that accent/dialect is from North England, South England or Scotland etc. Who knows we maybe all sound the same to a French person.
Swedish, Danish and Norwegian are all mutually intelligible dialects, but count as 3 different languages for political reasons. (Icelandic has diverged a longer way). Oddly Scottish people speak the English language but with various dialects/accents.
Bit like English people speak with regional dialects. It’s just that as (U.K.) English speakers we recognise whether that accent/dialect is from North England, South England or Scotland etc. Who knows we maybe all sound the same to a French person.
One of the reasons why Scandi's can get away with two years less of school, but end up as well or better educated is that their languages where all basically codified relatively recently, so the spelling is very close to the pronunciation. So less effort required to become literate. English, as we all know, has a large gap between spoken and written forms, especially if your dialect is not standard.
Scots was the official language of Scotland in the 15th and 16th centuries, but the merger with England turned it into a dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language
Edited by wisbech on Monday 8th March 02:43
Edited by wisbech on Monday 8th March 02:45
wisbech said:
The difference between a dialect and a language is politics...
There's more difference between Scottish English and Standard English than there is between Norwegian and Danish - and Norwegian became an official language rather than a dialect when Norway separated from Sweden.
Similarly, Cantonese is more different to Mandarin than Spanish to French, but is called a dialect
Who calls Cantonese a dialect? The CCP? Cantonese is a much a dialect of Mandarin as English is a dialect of German. There's more difference between Scottish English and Standard English than there is between Norwegian and Danish - and Norwegian became an official language rather than a dialect when Norway separated from Sweden.
Similarly, Cantonese is more different to Mandarin than Spanish to French, but is called a dialect
wisbech said:
Swedish, Danish and Norwegian are all mutually intelligible dialects, but count as 3 different languages for political reasons. (Icelandic has diverged a longer way).
One of the reasons why Scandi's can get away with two years less of school, but end up as well or better educated is that their languages where all basically codified relatively recently, so the spelling is very close to the pronunciation. So less effort required to become literate. English, as we all know, has a large gap between spoken and written forms, especially if your dialect is not standard.
Scots was the official language of Scotland in the 15th and 16th centuries, but the merger with England turned it into a dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language
Not sure of your point above.One of the reasons why Scandi's can get away with two years less of school, but end up as well or better educated is that their languages where all basically codified relatively recently, so the spelling is very close to the pronunciation. So less effort required to become literate. English, as we all know, has a large gap between spoken and written forms, especially if your dialect is not standard.
Scots was the official language of Scotland in the 15th and 16th centuries, but the merger with England turned it into a dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language
Edited by wisbech on Monday 8th March 02:43
Edited by wisbech on Monday 8th March 02:45
Many years ago I tried to learn some Danish. The grammar and vocabulary were not that difficult but pronunciation was a nightmare - didn’t seem much correspondence between what was written on the page and what came out of Danish people’s mouths.
GrizzlyBear said:
I believe Scottish is a P-Gaelic Language with similar roots to Irish, (the Cornish, Welsh and Breton Languages being distinct Q-Gaelic, and they are apparently quite different), unsurprisingly it was more common on the West side of Scotland, I think there is also a Scottish Language on the East side that is a derivative of old English (I know there are going to be some protests about that...).
Although, I also understand that there are also some more southerly areas of Scotland where the language was more similar to Welsh, in fact I think there were some connections between clans of Sothern Scotland and the tribes of North Wales.
I remember my Dad (Glasgow born and bred) saying there had been 4 languages used in Scotland:Although, I also understand that there are also some more southerly areas of Scotland where the language was more similar to Welsh, in fact I think there were some connections between clans of Sothern Scotland and the tribes of North Wales.
English
Scots Gaelic
Llallens (not sure on the spelling, apologies!) - which was Robbie Burns native tongue IIRC
Doric - north eastern Scotland, very similar to some German dialects, to the point that soldiers who spoke Doric could easily understand soldiers from certain regions of Germany....
Never got round to verifying any of that though, so more than happy to be corrected :-)
Lots of drivel on this thread as I expected when I saw the title, and reluctantly clicked on it. Can't believe there are people who confuse Scots with Gaelic. They are as difference from each other as English is from Russian - part of the Indo-European family of lanaguages, but belonging to entirely different and distantly related groups within that.
Scots is a Germanic language, mostly intelligible to native English speaks, as English is to native Scots speakers, and it evolved alongside what we now call standard modern English, from the same root language - Old English, which itself was a derivative of West Germanic. Gaelic is a member of theCeltic language group, related most closely to Irish and Manx, and less closely to Welsh, Cornish and Breton.
However, the majority of the population of Scotland speak English as their mother tongue rather than Scots or Gaelic, and there is some regional dialectal and accent difference within that as well of course. Scots is often called Lallans, which is the Scots word for Lowlands, and that's what Burns wrote some of his works in, as well as English. 1.5 million people in Scotland described themselves as Scots languge speakers in the last Census.
The University of Edinburgh can help shed some light here:
https://burnsmuseum.wordpress.com/2020/02/21/celeb...
This isn't politics, its philology.
Scots is a Germanic language, mostly intelligible to native English speaks, as English is to native Scots speakers, and it evolved alongside what we now call standard modern English, from the same root language - Old English, which itself was a derivative of West Germanic. Gaelic is a member of theCeltic language group, related most closely to Irish and Manx, and less closely to Welsh, Cornish and Breton.
However, the majority of the population of Scotland speak English as their mother tongue rather than Scots or Gaelic, and there is some regional dialectal and accent difference within that as well of course. Scots is often called Lallans, which is the Scots word for Lowlands, and that's what Burns wrote some of his works in, as well as English. 1.5 million people in Scotland described themselves as Scots languge speakers in the last Census.
The University of Edinburgh can help shed some light here:
https://burnsmuseum.wordpress.com/2020/02/21/celeb...
This isn't politics, its philology.
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