Obesity, is it really an illness or a lifestyle choice?

[smn159]

GloverMart said:

Stuff

I guess that you know this already, but there will be triggers that prompt you to eat crap and you need to change or ideally remove them. If it was me I'd be trying to stay out of Tescos as a priority - ask the Mrs to get the milk and explain why. Also, keep crap food out of the house so it's not there when you get a craving to eat it. No-one needs a cupboard full of crisps, biscuits and chocolate, and it's dietary suicide when you're trying to lose weight.

It takes a minimum of 2 weeks to start to change habits, so try those two changes for at least that long and you'll find that the cravings will be much more manageable.

[FNG]

david-j8694 said:

FNG said:

Oh behave.

Environmental factors are a contributor. Doesn’t fit your narrative I know but that doesn’t make it less true.

Your posts are shockingly immature and deluded. Post after post of you burying your head in the sand about the reasons behind your physical condition.

Most people are overweight, especially those over 30, because staying in shape is bloody hard. It requires motivation, effort and determination. Constantly. All of the time. Whilst everyone else aroud you is being a lazy slob and churning out weird and wonderful excuses about why it's not the same for them. So you have to block them out and keep going. But you don't care about that. You've decided there are deep psychological reasons as to why people are overweight, and drilling down into those reasons like you're bloody Freud is far more interesting than just following the well-known and immutable formula for weight loss - consume less than you burn. All these silly diets - vegan, IF, keto, paleo, weight watchers points system, whatever - they're all abstractions of the same biological fact: consume less than you burn, and your weight goes down.

When you account for calories, these diets all perform broadly the same. Ergo, in the vast majority of circumstances, you are what you eat. You can either acknowledge that fact and get to work, or you can keep aligning yourself with flowery posts that absolve you of any responsibility - the end result is still the same.

Well, that’s pleasant isn’t it. Judgemental much?

I haven’t said anywhere that there’s no hope for anyone who’s not got a good relationship with food.

I haven’t claimed that anyone can’t lose weight if they can consistently burn more calories than they consume.

You presume that I don’t understand that you need to put the effort in. I do get it. I’ve done it. Repeatedly for about 16 years. Until I fked my knee and can’t run or row any more, so I’m left with controlling diet as the main way I can control my weight.

It’s been creeping up since.

I’m under no illusion that this is because I consume to excess for the exercise I am able to do.

I am trying to explore the reasons ASIDE from the very basic and simplistic argument that you need to eat sensibly and exercise quite well, as to why that’s easy for some, hard for others, and borderline impossible for some.

If it was easy, we wouldn’t have an obesity epidemic to talk about. And if we keep this thread limited to “you’re eating too much, you fat bd” then we won’t all get to appreciate that there’s more than one factor, there’s nuance, and there’s therefore more than one solution.

[Drive it fix it repeat]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Krupp88 said:

It’s easy (and quick) to consume 3 digestive biscuits, most people would underestimate the number of calories involved. Assuming the consumer of said biscuits then went for a moderately brisk run for 30 minutes they may work off the calories, however I expect most people would over estimate what has been worked off.

So even someone who is ‘active’ in many peoples eyes by going to the gym 5 days a week for 30mins a time will only work off the takeaway curry they had at the weekend.

Until people fully understand the true calorific load of what they eat (and look beyond the deceptive labelling which often quotes the calories of a certain weight or portion of the product) and the level of exercise required to burn it off they will continue in the same loop of self deception.

It really is amazing that our bodies are so efficient in burning energy.

Hang on a minute! Are you trying to tell me that because I took the bins out, I cannot have a mahoosive fried breakfast as my reward?

This is pistonheads, therefore your country pile will have a private drive that meanders through the grounds for at least a mile, therefore a full English is completely justified.

[popeyewhite]

trowelhead said:

MOST obese people are sensitive to leptin source:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM19960201...

Papers "suggests" that. It doesn't state anywhere "MOST obese people are sensitive to leptin" it says data suggests it. As I have already said. I've also already pointed out that an individual has to become overweight before any potential hormonal imbalance occurs. This is the same with many other harmful behaviours, such as drinking harms the liver, smoking the lungs etc etc I don't think anyone has a doubt being obese is physically harmful, or that people afflicted find it easy to lose weight...The paper makes no recommendations for addressing weight loss in the obese individual with leptin deficiency. Perhaps I could suggest some exercise, leptin problems notwithstanding?

BTW that paper is 25 years old, what's the current thinking?

[trowelhead]

popeyewhite said:

trowelhead said:

MOST obese people are sensitive to leptin source:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM19960201...

Papers "suggests" that. It doesn't state anywhere "MOST obese people are sensitive to leptin" it says data suggests it. As I have already said. I've also already pointed out that an individual has to become overweight before any potential hormonal imbalance occurs. This is the same with many other harmful behaviours, such as drinking harms the liver, smoking the lungs etc etc I don't think anyone has a doubt being obese is physically harmful, or that people afflicted find it easy to lose weight...The paper makes no recommendations for addressing weight loss in the obese individual with leptin deficiency. Perhaps I could suggest some exercise, leptin problems notwithstanding?

BTW that paper is 25 years old, what's the current thinking?

I'm coming at this from the perspective of a relatively fit young man, but also have obese family members - i'm not trying to provide an "excuse" as to why people are obese - simply some science that hopefully may give a new perspective as to why some people struggle and others don't.

Personally If i eat processed carbs and crap and don't exercise, i balloon in weight, feel like crap and get hungry all the time.

If i eat mainly proteins, meat, fish, veg i can get and stay lean with relative ease - i've always wondered why and now some of the science has enlightened me as to why this is.

I've been both sides of the fence. I have a dexa scan at 10% body fat, i've also been overweight. I've eaten all sorts of diets so this is stuff i landed on through trial and error, but had noted i can easily lose weight and get lean on lower carbs, less processed food.

The reason for this is how my body reacts to these foods in terms of insulin, ghrelin and leptin.

However we can agree that exercise can help. As i stated above "- it is possible to re-set your weight set-point through eating the right kinds of fats, getting enough protein, avoiding processed foods and simple sugars, exercise, and getting enough sleep."

All of these things seem to have positive effects on all the hormones that regulate our hunger, weight, gut and metabolic rate.


As for that paper being 25 years old - heres some more up to date studies for your perusal:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=leptin+resis...

However as i've linked to many times, the book that gave me this info is written by a bariatric surgeon, and all his viewpoints are backed up with studies - i'm more likely to take his word for it than yours. What books have you read on the subject?

https://www.whyweeattoomuch.co.uk/

I don't really get your argument. There is a strong link between leptin resistance/ hypersecretion and obesity. (see above linked recent studies) Does it matter if it's cause or effect - the thread is titles obesity - illness or lifestyle choice - well science would say its an illness (in some cases brought on by lifestyle choices - not always )

If theres anyone on here stuggling with weight - the above linked book is a potential llfechanger - popeyewhite for someone who argues alot i can guarantee you won't read it. Shame it might open your mind a bit.

[rodericb]

trowelhead said:

popeyewhite said:

Further not everyone who is overweight exhibits leptin resistance (article states "may"), which is why some people CAN adopt lifestyle change and the discipline to adhere to it.

MOST obese people are sensitive to leptin source:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM19960201...

"Serum leptin concentrations are correlated with the percentage of body fat, suggesting that most obese persons are insensitive to endogenous leptin production."

TLDR - We have a weight "set-point" that is affected by the interplay of endocrinology (insulin, ghrelin, cortisol, leptin) and inflammation that is heavily mediated by an imbalance in omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids. (https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/9-fixes-for-weight-hormones#TOC_TITLE_HDR_5)

Basically, a westernised diet and stress can wreck your natural hunger hormone signals and make it extremely difficult to stay lean - diets can cause metabolism to reduce in the long term.

- it is possible to re-set your weight set-point through eating the right kinds of fats, getting enough protein, avoiding processed foods and simple sugars, exercise, and getting enough sleep.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-We-Eat-Too-Much/dp/02...

Re-setting your set point also takes a long time. Years ago I'd heard something like one pound per week or one kilo per week (it was a long time ago). And that's if your body is average - not got some mixed up hormones/chemistry/whatever.

[deckster]

david-j8694 said:

Your posts are shockingly immature and deluded. Post after post of you burying your head in the sand about the reasons behind your physical condition.

Most people are overweight, especially those over 30, because staying in shape is bloody hard. It requires motivation, sacrifice and determination. Constantly. All of the time. Whilst everyone else aroud you is being a lazy slob and churning out weird and wonderful excuses about why it's not the same for them. So you have to block them out and keep going. But you don't care about that. You've decided there are deep psychological reasons as to why people are overweight, and drilling down into those reasons like you're bloody Freud is far more interesting than just following the well-known and immutable formula for weight loss - consume less than you burn. All these silly diets - vegan, IF, keto, paleo, weight watchers points system, whatever - they're all abstractions of the same biological fact: consume less than you burn, and your weight goes down.

When you account for calories, these diets all perform broadly the same. Ergo, in the vast majority of circumstances, you are what you eat. You can either acknowledge that fact and get to work, or you can keep aligning yourself with flowery posts that absolve you of any responsibility - the end result is still the same.

Thank god you're here. Because, y,'know, nobody else has ever said that. And now you're here, to tell us all the blindingly fking obvious, the obesity epidemic is solved! Future generations will bow down before your (slim, toned) image in thanks that after your piercing insight was shared on an obscure web forum in mid-2021, there were no more fat people, ever. Because now we know that there are no other factors - psychology is bunk, sugar isn't addictive, dopamine doesn't exist, people aren't susceptible to advertising, peer pressure isn't a thing. Everybody just exercise more and eat less. Damn, I wish we'd thought of that years ago.

Cretin.

[MC Bodge]

deckster said:

Everybody just exercise more and eat less. Damn, I wish we'd thought of that years ago.

Cretin.

It isn't wrong, though, is it?

The problem is that many people must enjoy eating and snacking on the readily available harmful fuel and being sedentary more than they enjoy being healthy and active.

[sevensfun]

deckster said:

Thank god you're here. Because, y,'know, nobody else has ever said that. And now you're here, to tell us all the blindingly fking obvious, the obesity epidemic is solved! Future generations will bow down before your (slim, toned) image in thanks that after your piercing insight was shared on an obscure web forum in mid-2021, there were no more fat people, ever. Because now we know that there are no other factors - psychology is bunk, sugar isn't addictive, dopamine doesn't exist, people aren't susceptible to advertising, peer pressure isn't a thing. Everybody just exercise more and eat less. Damn, I wish we'd thought of that years ago.

Cretin.

Cretin!

Go keyboard gangster!

[deckster]

MC Bodge said:

deckster said:

Everybody just exercise more and eat less. Damn, I wish we'd thought of that years ago.

Cretin.

It isn't wrong, though, is it?

Precisely my point. It's correct, but it's also not useful. If it were useful, then we wouldn't have fat people. Which is a point that's been repeatedly made.

Reducing the argument to "it's easy, just eat less" ignores the reality of the situation.

[eldar]

deckster said:

Thank god you're here. Because, y,'know, nobody else has ever said that. And now you're here, to tell us all the blindingly fking obvious, the obesity epidemic is solved! Future generations will bow down before your (slim, toned) image in thanks that after your piercing insight was shared on an obscure web forum in mid-2021, there were no more fat people, ever. Because now we know that there are no other factors - psychology is bunk, sugar isn't addictive, dopamine doesn't exist, people aren't susceptible to advertising, peer pressure isn't a thing. Everybody just exercise more and eat less. Damn, I wish we'd thought of that years ago.

Cretin.

For future reference, we don't do signatures on PH.

[sevensfun]

deckster said:

Precisely my point. It's correct, but it's also not useful. If it were useful, then we wouldn't have fat people. Which is a point that's been repeatedly made.

Reducing the argument to "it's easy, just eat less" ignores the reality of the situation.

It’s useful if people consequently stopped filling their greedy gobs

[sevensfun]

eldar said:

For future reference, we don't do signatures on PH.

[deckster]

eldar said:

For future reference, we don't do signatures on PH.

Well played, sir.

[eldar]

deckster said:

eldar said:

For future reference, we don't do signatures on PH.

Well played, sir.

Couldn't resist, nothing personal

[popeyewhite]

trowelhead said:

I don't really get your argument.

Leptin resistance is nothing new. Obesity brings about several markers of poor health/disease - one of them is leptin resistance. My argument is don't get morbidly fat.

It's not that hard to understand.

Regarding the thread title with relevance to leptin then obesity is a lifestyle choice - you're not suffering leptin resistance until you become obese. Up to that point the vast majority of individuals have the same capability of taking personal responsibility for their health as the next person.

trowelhead said:

..Shame it might open your mind a bit etc etc

Two Degrees and a Masters in Exercise and Sports Science (Psychology) have opened my mind as far as I can tolerate for a while. Christ knows what I'm doing on here listening to people make excuses for self-inflicted illnesses brought about by a sedentary lifestyle and greed.

[Frenchda]

Without a doubt some people will maintain, loose or put weight on easier than others. There will be some (a small amount) with a genuine medical reason for gaining weight. There will be some with psychological reasons for eating badly, but the vast majority just overeat without exercise.
I have ranged from 80kg-105kg since my twenties (now 52 and 88kg @ 5’11).

The one thing that really affects me is exercise and not just because of the physical calorie burning. I feel more invested when I exercise, my food discipline is far better, I actually think more about my diet. When I am not exercising the crap food gate is open.

For the majority of overweight people it is just plain idleness, it takes time and effort to exercise and eat well and no effort not too!
The irony is that once you start it is actually very enjoyable.

[J4CKO]

I think some people are just naturally predisposed to weight more than others, maybe it is just greed but I know loads of thinner people who eat what they want or just arent that into food.

I am a couple of stone overweight, I know what causes it, too much food and beer, have dropped it before and need to get my head round it again, lockdown has not helped.

I do exercise though, just need to sort the diet, cycled 20 miles last night, walked 2 miles with the dog and will go to the gym tonight. Sort of annoys me when someone pontificates about weight when its just not an issue for them and not because they are disciplined, just that's how it is, A bit like someone who is tall thinks its a personal achievement.

I worked with a chap at the Police who was a bit prone to snarky comments about weight to one of the trainees in particular, he was "skinny fat", didn't look fat but smoked like a chimney, ate ste, did no exercise and had white lumps on his face which are a sign of cholesterol, he had a massive heart attack one night, didnt make any further weight related comments.

Its easy to sum it all up as saying there were no fat people in Bergen Belsen, but people do have access to food and all sorts of reasons for over eating, common in those who have been sexually abused to try and make themselves less appealing to their abuser.

Point is, not everyone who is slim is disciplined with massive reserves of willpower and not everyone who is fat is a feckless lazy turd. I know why I have a bit of extra, but its different for everybody.

So many different lives, I know a lady who is overweight (Not massive though) caring for a disabled partner, elderly parents and also working full time, she has put weight on as she has zero time to cook and exercise, again easy to pontificate but sometimes in the heat of battle you have other priorities and things slip, just getting through the day, paying your bills, keeping everyone happy and looked after is all you can manage.

I have loads of time to exercise (and do), I have plenty of cash for bikes, gym memberships, decent food etc and the knowledge to do it, still manage to be a bit overweight though, must be difficult for people who dont have the advantages.

[ChocolateFrog]

Watching The biggest loser Aus version, there's a bloke on there that weighs 234kg.

That has to take more than 10000 calories a day to maintain, I'm almost impressed.

[J4CKO]

ChocolateFrog said:

Watching The biggest loser Aus version, there's a bloke on there that weighs 234kg.

That has to take more than 10000 calories a day to maintain, I'm almost impressed.

Yeah, as if you average just one 2 finger KitKat a day over what you use over a year every day, 105 calories you would see a weight gain of potentially 10 pounds.